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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 7:15:07
Hi, everyone,
Welcome to this new board! I hope it helps to have one specifically for complementary and alternative treatments.
Bob
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 4, 2003, at 10:02:42
In reply to Welcome!, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 7:15:07
Woo-hoo, three new boards! lol, way to go, Bob! :-)
Posted by shar on September 4, 2003, at 14:25:27
In reply to Re: Welcome! » Dr. Bob, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 4, 2003, at 10:02:42
...time to get to work, n'est-ce pas? This is sort of your baby :)
Good luck!
Shar
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 4, 2003, at 19:59:10
In reply to OK, ASV » Ame Sans Vie, posted by shar on September 4, 2003, at 14:25:27
> ...time to get to work, n'est-ce pas? This is sort of your baby :)
Absolument! ;-)
Posted by galkeepinon on September 4, 2003, at 20:15:23
In reply to Re: Welcome! » Dr. Bob, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 4, 2003, at 10:02:42
Hey There:-)~I knew you'd like this board ;) Now you can post all your ideas about all the alternative stuff and knowledge you have:-)
WooooHoooo> Woo-hoo, three new boards! lol, way to go, Bob! :-)
Posted by daizy on September 5, 2003, at 7:15:44
In reply to Welcome!, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 7:15:07
Woo Woo! Great Idea for a new board, hope it will be helpful to everyone!!
> Hi, everyone,
>
> Welcome to this new board! I hope it helps to have one specifically for complementary and alternative treatments.
>
> Bob
Posted by CamW. on September 22, 2003, at 16:36:20
In reply to Welcome!, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 7:15:07
Clearly this board could potentially do a whole heck of a lot of damage to someone. Anyone not versed (at least a little bit) in psychopharamcology may not be able to separate the real wheat from the real chaff when it comes to self-administration.
I guess time will tell. I have not been posting of late because a fair bit of the recent advice on PB is very suspect. Not many people are researching, or even reading the studies that they quote, relying on the written words of a reporter (eg. the J Clin Psychiatry article on successfully losing the weight gained while taking Zyprexa - my reading of the article differs vastly from that of the reporter.
A similar thing is very likely to happen on this board, only I'll bet it will happen more often. Anyone remember the pig pills?
- Cam
Posted by Kacy on September 22, 2003, at 17:22:14
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW. on September 22, 2003, at 16:36:20
I don't remember the pig pills…but there aren't enough psychopharmacologists in the world for everyone to hire if we could all afford it. (Psycho-pharmacologists?)
We can't all afford the tests that don't exist to find the answers that aren't available, so we work with what we can. It's up to each of us to keep reading and trying to find the answers, but it takes a while to develop some ability at that. Everyone has to start somewhere. I appreciate those who do their best to help the rest of us and those who ask the questions that get me interested in things I've never heard about. Really…there just aren't people to take care of each of us; we do have to take care of ourselves.
Posted by galkeepinon on September 22, 2003, at 18:12:20
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble?, posted by Kacy on September 22, 2003, at 17:22:14
Posted by Kacy on September 22, 2003, at 18:17:45
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW. on September 22, 2003, at 16:36:20
Okay, I'll give it to you on the homemade cranial electrode machine.
Posted by galkeepinon on September 22, 2003, at 18:19:16
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » CamW., posted by Kacy on September 22, 2003, at 18:17:45
Posted by tealady on September 22, 2003, at 18:22:48
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW. on September 22, 2003, at 16:36:20
> Clearly this board could potentially do a whole heck of a lot of damage to someone. Anyone not versed (at least a little bit) in psychopharamcology may not be able to separate the real wheat from the real chaff when it comes to self-administration.
>
> I guess time will tell. I have not been posting of late because a fair bit of the recent advice on PB is very suspect. Not many people are researching, or even reading the studies that they quote, relying on the written words of a reporter (eg. the J Clin Psychiatry article on successfully losing the weight gained while taking Zyprexa - my reading of the article differs vastly from that of the reporter.
>
> A similar thing is very likely to happen on this board, only I'll bet it will happen more often. Anyone remember the pig pills?
>
> - CamSo what is the pig pills story? I've never heard of it?
Jan (oink)
Posted by galkeepinon on September 22, 2003, at 18:24:23
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » CamW., posted by tealady on September 22, 2003, at 18:22:48
oink oink
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 23, 2003, at 0:14:01
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW. on September 22, 2003, at 16:36:20
> I have not been posting of late because a fair bit of the recent advice on PB is very suspect. Not many people are researching, or even reading the studies that they quote, relying on the written words of a reporter (eg. the J Clin Psychiatry article on successfully losing the weight gained while taking Zyprexa - my reading of the article differs vastly from that of the reporter.
No one's under any obligation to post, but other readings would be welcome... Despite what it may seem like sometimes, different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged...
Bob
Posted by CamW. on September 23, 2003, at 3:18:06
In reply to Yeah what is the pig pills story anyway???, posted by galkeepinon on September 22, 2003, at 18:24:23
Compare and contrast this:
http://www.truehope.com/home.asp
with this:
http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
- Cam
P.S. I cannot elaborate on this because accuracy of facts and reasoning using scientific methods is no longer tolerated on this site. A transmogrification has occurred where psuedo-science and anti-science must be given equal time. The quest for knowledge has been supplanted in order to accommodate obvious quack therapies. We wouldn't want to offend or upset anyone by requesting justification and the proof that led them to their stated conclusions. That just wouldn't be civil. But what is civility anyway: just a word with continually changing, but arbitrary definition? .... or is it just a way to cover the increasingly subjective despotism and arrogance that has permeated this site over the past couple years?
Someone's not leaving their ego at the door; better to have half-baked advice from people too lazy to consult original sources, but will believe what they want to believe. Pitiful, just pitiful.
By all, I'm going to go play on Dr. Grohol's site; the atmosphere there is not as thick and suffocating. - Cam
Posted by JLx on September 23, 2003, at 9:02:35
In reply to Re: Yeah what is the pig pills story anyway???, posted by CamW. on September 23, 2003, at 3:18:06
I read some of the material on your links with great interest. My personal approach is to view everything everyone says with much skepticism. Who is behind the HealthWatcher site, for instance? Not only are they selling an e-book, but I notice they are soliciting people for a class action suit against TrueHope with the following reference to "our" lawyers:
"Those of you who have been sold a bill of goods, who have spent hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars on this crazy scheme now have a chance to provide input to our attorneys in a class action lawsuit." http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/synergy-lawsuit.html
I notice here too, http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/antiTH.htm that in a response to this psychiatrist, one of the founders of TrueHope accuses Marvin Ross -- the crusading-against-TrueHope journalist -- of being funded by the phamaceutical companies. If THAT'S true, then that may alone be the best evidence for TrueHope being effective! ;)
I'm in the U.S. too where we make a distinction between drugs and natural supplements, so all the references to TrueHope being a "drug" rubbed me the wrong way. The "pig pills" designation also is clearly designed to incite against the product. The Ottawa Citizen article, for instance, simply says that
"One of the pair, Mr. Hardy, had experience in animal nutrition and mentions a feed supplement used to prevent aggressive pigs from savaging each other in their pens to his friend Anthony Stephan. The two produce a human version of the feed supplement."
What was the supplement? Is it really used this way? Does it work? Was it the TrueHope formula itself? Or one ingredient?
And as for the horror stories, there's plenty of those for conventional drug therapy as well. The many recent articles about Paxil and suicide being a case in point.
It's bothersome not knowing who to trust, but I think the "let the buyer beware" mentality is more implicit in something we buy over the counter. The drugs, which we depend on FDA approval for, are supposed to be safe and effective, otoh. But are they? When the articles and studies written and done about them may be funded by the big phamaceutical companies? (Not to mention that these are usually very short term studies for things that we take long term.) I read recently that they employ 675 lobbyists in Washington! That's 7 for each member of Congress, to the tune of $91 million. (Per Public Citizen's Congress Watch)
When it comes to natural/alternative/complementary products, it's necessary to separate the fantastic from the plausible, which is something I've noticed the most vociferous of its critics rarely do. The other problem with these critics, is that they are unwilling to consider both individual biological variations and that some things work in synergy ALSO in individual variations. The resulting picture is complex and doesn't lend itself well to the usual studies that we used to determine drug efficacy. Treating the patient, as an individual biological entity with consideration of many variables such as nutrition being involved in either wellness or disease, used to be considered the ART of medicine.
> Compare and contrast this:
>
> http://www.truehope.com/home.asp
>
> with this:
>
> http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
>
> - Cam
>
> P.S. I cannot elaborate on this because accuracy of facts and reasoning using scientific methods is no longer tolerated on this site. A transmogrification has occurred where psuedo-science and anti-science must be given equal time. The quest for knowledge has been supplanted in order to accommodate obvious quack therapies. We wouldn't want to offend or upset anyone by requesting justification and the proof that led them to their stated conclusions. That just wouldn't be civil. But what is civility anyway: just a word with continually changing, but arbitrary definition? .... or is it just a way to cover the increasingly subjective despotism and arrogance that has permeated this site over the past couple years?
>
> Someone's not leaving their ego at the door; better to have half-baked advice from people too lazy to consult original sources, but will believe what they want to believe. Pitiful, just pitiful.
>
> By all, I'm going to go play on Dr. Grohol's site; the atmosphere there is not as thick and suffocating. - Cam
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 12:40:17
In reply to Re: Yeah what is the pig pills story anyway???, posted by CamW. on September 23, 2003, at 3:18:06
> Someone's not leaving their ego at the door; better to have half-baked advice from people too lazy to consult original sources, but will believe what they want to believe. Pitiful, just pitiful.
Maybe it hasn't occured to those still in the Ivory Tower, but accessing beyond abstracts on PubMed requires $. I'm lucky to have a local public library that has Perrine on the shelf. (And you should see the looks I get from staff as well as my parents when I check it out)
> By all, I'm going to go play on Dr. Grohol's site; the atmosphere there is not as thick and suffocating. - Cam
What are you talking about? I rarely ever see you commenting on anything since I became active on the board in late July (even soliciting your advice directly once regarding the HPA axis).
This may stretching the bounds of civility, but to me your comments have the air of disdainful proclamations eminating from the peak of Mt. Olympus.
Posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 15:18:56
In reply to Re: Asking for trouble? » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW. on September 22, 2003, at 16:36:20
> Clearly this board could potentially do a whole heck of a lot of damage to someone. Anyone not versed (at least a little bit) in psychopharamcology may not be able to separate the real wheat from the real chaff when it comes to self-administration.
>
> I guess time will tell. I have not been posting of late because a fair bit of the recent advice on PB is very suspect. Not many people are researching, or even reading the studies that they quote, relying on the written words of a reporter (eg. the J Clin Psychiatry article on successfully losing the weight gained while taking Zyprexa - my reading of the article differs vastly from that of the reporter.
>
> A similar thing is very likely to happen on this board, only I'll bet it will happen more often. Anyone remember the pig pills?
>
> - CamPot.... Kettle... Black?
a) Cylert => liver failure
b) Wellbutrin => seizures
c) Just about any of the stories on this board of intolerable side effects, or "poop out" souring a long-sought cocktail of medication that had worked.
When amatuers make mistakes it's idiocy.
When professionals make them it becomes "serendipidious advancement of the boundaries of knowledge".
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 23, 2003, at 23:45:02
In reply to Re: Yeah what is the pig pills story anyway???, posted by CamW. on September 23, 2003, at 3:18:06
> accuracy of facts and reasoning using scientific methods is no longer tolerated on this site... The quest for knowledge has been supplanted in order to accommodate obvious quack therapies... But what is civility anyway ... just a way to cover the increasingly subjective despotism and arrogance that has permeated this site over the past couple years?
>
> Someone's not leaving their ego at the door; better to have half-baked advice from people too lazy to consult original sources, but will believe what they want to believe. Pitiful, just pitiful.
>
> By all, I'm going to go play on Dr. Grohol's site; the atmosphere there is not as thick and suffocating.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or exaggerate or overgeneralize. The last time you were blocked, it was for 8 weeks, so this time, it's for 16. I'm glad you found someplace else more to your liking. Best wishes,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 23, 2003, at 23:52:19
In reply to Re: Yeah what is the pig pills story anyway??? » CamW., posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 12:40:17
> This may stretching the bounds of civility, but to me your comments have the air of disdainful proclamations eminating from the peak of Mt. Olympus.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused, thanks. If you think something may stretch the bounds of civility, that may be a clue that it does...
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
This is the end of the thread.
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