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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 10:06:50
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 9:26:07
> > Lar,
> > As I told you previously, I'm taking SJW (I also take 30 mg of Remeron a day).
> > I take the SJW 450mg/2x a day (total 900 mg/day).
>
> Did you check to see if the brand you're using is on lists of recommended products? Many SJW products fail to provide the labelled ingredients at the potency described. In other words, you may not be getting what you paid for.
>
> http://www.consumerlab.com/results/sjw.asp
>
> http://www.biopsychiatry.com/hypericum.html
> (table at bottom of page)
>
> German pharmaceutical grade products are one way to ensure quality. The extract identified in the scientific literature as WS 5572, is marketed as Neuroplant in Germany, and as Perika (or PerikaT), and Movana (or MovanaT), in the United States. The extract known as LI 160 in the literature, is marketed in Germany as Jarsin 300, and is sold as Kira in the U.S.
>
> Here's a link to a reliability study of these extracts:
>
> http://www.aphanet.org/JAPhA/julyaug01pdfs/wurglics%20p560_566.pdf
>
>
> > Since I'm already taking the SJW, but still don't feel too good, I guess I'll stay w/ that and raise the dose to 3 a day (1350 mg/day).
>
> Or change products?
>
> >Tryptophan>>>>5HTP>>>>>>>>Serotonin. But all the contradictory crap that I read....question: Do they convert well; when you put a tryptophan or 5htp supp in your mouth, does enough of that get converted to serotonin in the brain?
>
> Tryptophan used to be available in health food stores, and was one of the most-used natural products. Then, contaminated product made some people really sick. I've got to believe that tryprophan was working for people, or it would not have been so popular.
>
> You want to try tryptophan, it's probably safer than 5-HTP. The latter is not normally found in the blood in any concentration, and it will be converted to serotonin in places it doesn't belong. That may or may not be bad for you. <shrug>
>
> > Does one of them, the tryptophan or the 5htp, work better than the other, either because of conversion reasons or for other reasons?
>
> The conversion of tryptophan to 5-HTP is the rate-limiting step in the formation of serotonin. It is slow, and highly regulated. The second step, from 5-HTP to serotonin, is virtually instantaneous. Compare dose recommendations for the two substances.
>
> By taking 5-HTP, you bypass your body's regulatory systems. I can guarantee you that 5-HTP will turn to serotonin, but whether it will do so the way your body would have done it is not clear. Tryptophan, on the other hand, will be converted to serotonin when and where it is needed, in the amount that is needed (providing that the enzymes are functioning normally, etc.).
>
> > What's funny is that these supps have been around for plenty long enough that the info. should be clear and easily understandable rather than vague and contradictory.
>
> I don't know what contradictory evidence you're referring to. It all makes sense to me. <wink>
>
> > (Just like w/ SJW---has been used forever by tons of people yet because some drug company doesn't own it, all you find are contradictory articles, as if it's only been used for 2 weeks, lol. If it were Pfizer's brand new drug, you'd see commercials tonight stating how it definitely would help!)
>
> Actually, there is active suppression of Hypericum by drug companies. I could give you a very long trashing of the published study that "proved" that SJW doesn't work (the article posted in JAMA). It was biased, selective, used inappropriate statistical measures, and failed to disclose that the researchers, and all funding, were paid for by the manufacturer of sertraline. Moreover, the drug company had bought the herb supplier, and withdrew all Hypericum products at the same time as it released the flawed study.
>
> > Now I realize that tryptophan or 5htp may not help many folks...that may not be what they need. But don't they seem like logical choices for me to try?
>
> One thing at a time, would be my recommendation.
>
> > But....is it okay to combine SJW with either of these two supps?
>
> Yes, with care.
>
> > I read that SJW has MAOI-like properties....is that true?
>
> Yes, but they are quite mild. There are now eight different antidepressant mechanisms identified for SJW, and at least two of them have never before been described with respect to antidepressant activity.
>
> > Well, for now I'll probably just stick with the SJW and titrate that upwards and see how that goes.
>
> Check the quality of your product.
>
> > But I did want your opinion of the tryptophan and 5htp (or any other supps that would boost serotonergic activity). Thank you so much Lar....as always, MUCH appreciated! Didn't have a chance to proofread this Lar, gotta run, take care!
>
> No problem.
>
> Lar
Posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 11:57:22
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover « Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 10:06:50
> Did you check to see if the brand you're using is on lists of recommended products? Many SJW products fail to provide the labelled ingredients at the potency described. In other words, you may not be getting what you paid for.
>>>>>>>>>>> The product that I take (by Nature's Plus) wasn't on either list (relatively small lists)
>
> http://www.consumerlab.com/results/sjw.asp
>
> http://www.biopsychiatry.com/hypericum.html
> (table at bottom of page)
>
> German pharmaceutical grade products are one way to ensure quality. The extract identified in the scientific literature as WS 5572, is marketed as Neuroplant in Germany, and as Perika (or PerikaT), and Movana (or MovanaT), in the United States. The extract known as LI 160 in the literature, is marketed in Germany as Jarsin 300, and is sold as Kira in the U.S.>>>>>>>>>>>> Kira was one of the products mentioned in the newspaper article as having tested well below its claims. Looks like you really can't be sure at all what you're getting with these products. For someone who doesn't really NEED the product (milder problems) that's one thing; for someone who has severe problems that desperately must count on the content of these products, that's an entirely different story. At least with meds, you (in the vast majority of cases) know what you're getting. I see why folks with very severe problems shouldn't risk their lives with products whose content is 'anybody's guess'. I've had friends who tried SJW for their very, very mild symptoms or even just for the heck of it...it really didn't matter to them if the product contained NONE of what it stated, they were still fine without it. But to someone that had major depression that desperately was counting on the product...they could be up on a bridge railing if they got a rip-off batch. And although it usually says "for mild to moderate depression", I have read studies where it was used for severe depression. But someone buying it off the store shelf can only hope that the bottle they choose is up to snuff. Even if one bottle of a particular brand does pass the test, that surely doesn't mean the next bottle by that same company will. I have been trying to use SJW and other products of that ilk as an adjunct, in a complementary role to meds; if my problems were only mild ones, or even moderate, I could take more chances with this stuff.
>
> Here's a link to a reliability study of these extracts:
>
> http://www.aphanet.org/JAPhA/julyaug01pdfs/wurglics%20p560_566.pdf
>
>
> > Since I'm already taking the SJW, but still don't feel too good, I guess I'll stay w/ that and raise the dose to 3 a day (1350 mg/day).
>
> Or change products?>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, one bottle of 'X' brand may contain what it claims but the next bottle may not...that Kira brand was only 81% in one test, something like 90% in another, who knows what in the next (it was in the LA Times article). Kind of like 'Pot Luck' what you're getting.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, Ame was telling me that Remeron is blocking the SJW from working for me. I'll post the study with the info. where he deduced that from; please see what you think.
>
> >Tryptophan>>>>5HTP>>>>>>>>Serotonin. But all the contradictory crap that I read....question: Do they convert well; when you put a tryptophan or 5htp supp in your mouth, does enough of that get converted to serotonin in the brain?
>
> Tryptophan used to be available in health food stores, and was one of the most-used natural products. Then, contaminated product made some people really sick. I've got to believe that tryprophan was working for people, or it would not have been so popular.
>
> You want to try tryptophan, it's probably safer than 5-HTP. The latter is not normally found in the blood in any concentration, and it will be converted to serotonin in places it doesn't belong. That may or may not be bad for you. <shrug>
>
> > Does one of them, the tryptophan or the 5htp, work better than the other, either because of conversion reasons or for other reasons?
>
> The conversion of tryptophan to 5-HTP is the rate-limiting step in the formation of serotonin. It is slow, and highly regulated. The second step, from 5-HTP to serotonin, is virtually instantaneous. Compare dose recommendations for the two substances.
>
> By taking 5-HTP, you bypass your body's regulatory systems. I can guarantee you that 5-HTP will turn to serotonin, but whether it will do so the way your body would have done it is not clear. Tryptophan, on the other hand, will be converted to serotonin when and where it is needed, in the amount that is needed (providing that the enzymes are functioning normally, etc.).
>
> > What's funny is that these supps have been around for plenty long enough that the info. should be clear and easily understandable rather than vague and contradictory.
>
> I don't know what contradictory evidence you're referring to. It all makes sense to me. <wink>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes but you're a scientist/chemist/brainiac Lar! (Can I trade brains with you?)
>
> > (Just like w/ SJW---has been used forever by tons of people yet because some drug company doesn't own it, all you find are contradictory articles, as if it's only been used for 2 weeks, lol. If it were Pfizer's brand new drug, you'd see commercials tonight stating how it definitely would help!)
>
> Actually, there is active suppression of Hypericum by drug companies. I could give you a very long trashing of the published study that "proved" that SJW doesn't work (the article posted in JAMA). It was biased, selective, used inappropriate statistical measures, and failed to disclose that the researchers, and all funding, were paid for by the manufacturer of sertraline. Moreover, the drug company had bought the herb supplier, and withdrew all Hypericum products at the same time as it released the flawed study.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said something to this exact same effect before on the Babble board and was called a "conspiracy theorist", lol....as if everybody is a Saint, lol.
>
> > Now I realize that tryptophan or 5htp may not help many folks...that may not be what they need. But don't they seem like logical choices for me to try?
>
> One thing at a time, would be my recommendation.
>
> > But....is it okay to combine SJW with either of these two supps?
>
> Yes, with care.
>
> > I read that SJW has MAOI-like properties....is that true?
>
> Yes, but they are quite mild. There are now eight different antidepressant mechanisms identified for SJW, and at least two of them have never before been described with respect to antidepressant activity.
>
> > Well, for now I'll probably just stick with the SJW and titrate that upwards and see how that goes.
>
> Check the quality of your product.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The first list (from your links) only tested a small number of products...the 2nd article I think mostly showed products that came in with smaller amts. than the bottle claimed....but there are so many brands out there, relatively few are on either list> > But I did want your opinion of the tryptophan and 5htp (or any other supps that would boost serotonergic activity). Thank you so much Lar....as always, MUCH appreciated! Didn't have a chance to proofread this Lar, gotta run, take care!
>
> No problem.
>
> Lar
Posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 12:03:45
In reply to Larry Hoover « Larry Hoover, posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 11:57:22
Lar, here is the abstract that Ame sent me. He said that Remeron was having a drastic influence on the efficacy of my SJW. Blocking it from really working.
What do you think?Antidepressant-Like Behavioral Effects
Mediated by 5-Hydroxytryptamine(2C) Receptors
by
Cryan JF, Lucki I
Department of Psychiatry,
University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2000 Dec 1;295(3):1120-1126ABSTRACT
The role of the 5-HT(2C) receptor in mediating active behaviors in the modified rat forced swim test was examined. Three novel selective 5-HT(2C) receptor agonists, WAY 161503 (0.1-3.0 mg/kg), RO 60-0175 (2-20 mg/kg), and RO 60-0332 (20 mg/kg), all decreased immobility and increased swimming, a pattern of behavior similar to that which occurs with the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor fluoxetine (5-20 mg/kg). However, the prototypical but nonselective 5-HT(2C) receptor agonist m-chlorophenylpiperazine (1-10 mg/kg) increased immobility scores in the forced swim test. The selective 5-HT(2C) receptor antagonist SB 206533 was inactive when given alone (1-20 mg/kg). However, ****SB 206533 (20 mg/kg) blocked the antidepressant-like effects of both WAY 161503 (1 mg/kg) and fluoxetine (20 mg/kg)****. The atypical antidepressant (noradrenergic alpha(2) and 5-HT(2C) receptor antagonist) mianserin [note that mianserin possesses the exact same qualities as Remeron; it affects the same receptors in the same way] reduced immobility and increased climbing at 30 mg/kg. At a behaviorally subactive dose (10 mg/kg), mianserin abolished the effects of WAY 161503 (1 mg/kg) on both swimming and immobility scores. Mianserin blocked the effects of fluoxetine (20 mg/kg) on swimming only; mianserin plus fluoxetine reduced immobility and induced a switch to climbing behavior, suggesting activation of noradrenergic transmission. These data exemplify the benefits of using the modified rat forced swim test, which was sensitive to serotonergic compounds and distinguished behavioral changes associated with serotonergic and noradrenergic effects. Taken together, the results strongly implicate a role for 5-HT(2C) receptors in the behavioral effects of antidepressant drugs.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 12:55:20
In reply to Larry Hoover « Larry Hoover, posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 11:57:22
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kira was one of the products mentioned in the newspaper article as having tested well below its claims.It tests low (not well below, IMHO), but it is remarkably consistent, batch-to-batch. That's why I included the article reference (the pdf file).
If you take the Kira product, dosing according to symptoms/response, it is really irrelevant whether you're getting 88% or whatever of the stated ingredients. The 900 mg/day "standard dose" is merely a guideline. The last time I used SJW, I was using 2250 mg/day.
> Looks like you really can't be sure at all what you're getting with these products. For someone who doesn't really NEED the product (milder problems) that's one thing; for someone who has severe problems that desperately must count on the content of these products, that's an entirely different story.
Getting a consistent product is important, but beyond that, you still must titrate the dose.
> At least with meds, you (in the vast majority of cases) know what you're getting. I see why folks with very severe problems shouldn't risk their lives with products whose content is 'anybody's guess'. I've had friends who tried SJW for their very, very mild symptoms or even just for the heck of it...it really didn't matter to them if the product contained NONE of what it stated, they were still fine without it. But to someone that had major depression that desperately was counting on the product...they could be up on a bridge railing if they got a rip-off batch. And although it usually says "for mild to moderate depression", I have read studies where it was used for severe depression. But someone buying it off the store shelf can only hope that the bottle they choose is up to snuff.
I fully recognize your concerns, in this regard. The pharmaceutical industry has actively blocked reasonable and appropriate guidelines for the standardization and testing of herbal products. It's not rocket science. The lack of governmental oversight is intentional.
> Even if one bottle of a particular brand does pass the test, that surely doesn't mean the next bottle by that same company will.
Certainly, that is a risk, but Jarsin 300 (Kira) is a very consistent product, batch-to-batch.
> I have been trying to use SJW and other products of that ilk as an adjunct, in a complementary role to meds; if my problems were only mild ones, or even moderate, I could take more chances with this stuff.
If the stuff you're using is anything like the Sundown product reviewed by the L.A. Times, then you may be wasting time and money. I'm sorry to hear that your product was not identified, but perhaps it was tested by consumerlab, and the results not published in the public part of the site. There is a membership fee to view the full results. I haven't bothered joining (yet). I have other things to spend my money on, right now.
> > Here's a link to a reliability study of these extracts:Here's that link again. Check out the graphs of hyperforin and hypericin content for Jarsin 300 (Kira).
http://www.aphanet.org/JAPhA/julyaug01pdfs/wurglics%20p560_566.pdf
> > > Since I'm already taking the SJW, but still don't feel too good, I guess I'll stay w/ that and raise the dose to 3 a day (1350 mg/day).
> >
> > Or change products?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, one bottle of 'X' brand may contain what it claims but the next bottle may not...that Kira brand was only 81% in one test, something like 90% in another, who knows what in the next (it was in the LA Times article). Kind of like 'Pot Luck' what you're getting.I think the pdf file is a good reference.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, Ame was telling me that Remeron is blocking the SJW from working for me. I'll post the study with the info. where he deduced that from; please see what you think.
It may be interacting with SJW, but we don't know just what it is about SJW that makes it work, so any interpretation of receptor modulation research is bound to be conditional at best, and pure guesswork at the least.
> > I don't know what contradictory evidence you're referring to. It all makes sense to me. <wink>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes but you're a scientist/chemist/brainiac Lar! (Can I trade brains with you?)Trust me. You don't want to know what it's like having my brain.
> > Actually, there is active suppression of Hypericum by drug companies. I could give you a very long trashing of the published study that "proved" that SJW doesn't work (the article posted in JAMA). It was biased, selective, used inappropriate statistical measures, and failed to disclose that the researchers, and all funding, were paid for by the manufacturer of sertraline. Moreover, the drug company had bought the herb supplier, and withdrew all Hypericum products at the same time as it released the flawed study.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said something to this exact same effect before on the Babble board and was called a "conspiracy theorist", lol....as if everybody is a Saint, lol.Like I said, I could give you a major trashing review of that study. I'm not alone in that opinion. There was a massive amount of negative feedback in the "letters to the editor" forum, following publication. There were major flaws in the study, how the data was analysed, conclusions expressed that actually contradict the data, conclusions expressed which were simply restatements of the hypothesis, and on and on.
I can't assure you that a particular product is good, but the evidence points to Kira and Perika having pretty good batch-to-batch consistency. In the end, that factor, and having reasonably good accord between label content and actual content (concentration of active ingredients), are what I would be looking for.
Lar
Posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 13:57:12
In reply to Re: consistency of SJW products » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 12:55:20
One other question comes to mind re: this abstract.......does taking Remeron block the anti-depressant effects of other AD's (such as the ssri's)? Note where Ame inserted this, "note that mianserin possesses the exact same qualities as Remeron; it affects the same receptors in the same way]".......I took Remeron at a very low dose (7.5 mg) for sleep while also taking ssri's...it didn't seem to affect the anti-dep. quality of the ssri much/if any at that low dose......but now I'm taking 30 mg of Remeron and IF I were to go back on an ssri, would 30 mg. of Remeron block the ssri's AD effect (according to this abstract)? I'd love your thoughts on this! As always, Thank You!
Antidepressant-Like Behavioral Effects
Mediated by 5-Hydroxytryptamine(2C) Receptors
by
Cryan JF, Lucki I
Department of Psychiatry,
University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2000 Dec 1;295(3):1120-1126ABSTRACT
The role of the 5-HT(2C) receptor in mediating active behaviors in the modified rat forced swim test was examined. Three novel selective 5-HT(2C) receptor agonists, WAY 161503 (0.1-3.0 mg/kg), RO 60-0175 (2-20 mg/kg), and RO 60-0332 (20 mg/kg), all decreased immobility and increased swimming, a pattern of behavior similar to that which occurs with the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor fluoxetine (5-20 mg/kg). However, the prototypical but nonselective 5-HT(2C) receptor agonist m-chlorophenylpiperazine (1-10 mg/kg) increased immobility scores in the forced swim test. The selective 5-HT(2C) receptor antagonist SB 206533 was inactive when given alone (1-20 mg/kg). However, ****SB 206533 (20 mg/kg) blocked the antidepressant-like effects of both WAY 161503 (1 mg/kg) and fluoxetine (20 mg/kg)****. The atypical antidepressant (noradrenergic alpha(2) and 5-HT(2C) receptor antagonist) mianserin [note that mianserin possesses the exact same qualities as Remeron; it affects the same receptors in the same way] reduced immobility and increased climbing at 30 mg/kg. At a behaviorally subactive dose (10 mg/kg), mianserin abolished the effects of WAY 161503 (1 mg/kg) on both swimming and immobility scores. Mianserin blocked the effects of fluoxetine (20 mg/kg) on swimming only; mianserin plus fluoxetine reduced immobility and induced a switch to climbing behavior, suggesting activation of noradrenergic transmission. These data exemplify the benefits of using the modified rat forced swim test, which was sensitive to serotonergic compounds and distinguished behavioral changes associated with serotonergic and noradrenergic effects. Taken together, the results strongly implicate a role for 5-HT(2C) receptors in the behavioral effects of antidepressant drugs.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 7:43:49
In reply to Lar, Re: consistency of SJW products, posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 13:57:12
> One other question comes to mind re: this abstract.......does taking Remeron block the anti-depressant effects of other AD's (such as the ssri's)?
No. It modifies their effect. Experience shows that Remeron can be a useful augmentative agent (enhancing effect). Focussing on a narrow aspect of the pharmacology (e.g. a single receptor subtype) is pointless, IMHO. There's a lot of other stuff going on.
Lar
Posted by McPac on September 6, 2003, at 12:38:28
In reply to Re: Remeron and SSRIs » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 7:43:49
This is the end of the thread.
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