![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by fayeroe on December 8, 2008, at 19:32:09
In reply to Re: Above for all, but for Twinleaf, posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:05:58
Couldn't there be a private chat with the person? Do you have a room here where two can chat alone?
It could be like the safe room that we had at the psych hospital.of course, it would be very good if bob made himself available when someone is obviously in so much distress. alot of people here look up to him and would probably benefit from a bit of one on one in a safe place.
my keyboard isn't working correctly. sometimes a letter will capitalize and sometimes it won't.
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 19:46:50
In reply to Re: Above for all, but for Twinleaf, posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:05:58
and I got the scars to prove it.
However, I HAVE learned from them...
I think it is important to know that online support, while wonderful, can only be an adjunct to IRL support. The IRL needs to be primary.
I agree, when a person is lashing out it would be nice to be able to help them. But I think it is a kindness to block as there's posts I have regretted posting when escalated that I wish I hadn't done. Once I am in that point of irrational anger, its hard on a board to try and talk me down, there is too much delay. Chat has been useful to me for that however.
I just dunno where do you draw the line for blocking? Am I allowed to call eg. Dinah and *ssh*l* cuz I am mad at her? Is that acceptable? esp if I am escalating and am likely from my past history, to continue? to worsen due to the slow response of the board? Should I not be stopped? When I used to get to that point there was nothing anyone could do. I would end up blocked, and madder than ever, but I would deescalate eventually and it would be OK. I am still here. So in my case, being blocked, ultimately protected me, and of course any poaters that might be triggered by my behaviour. And I am sure I must ahve triggered and frightened others in the past. For that I am sorry.
Also,now, when blocked, I think you can still chat, so you ar not completely ostracised.
I haven't b-mailed SSSS cuz she asked me not to. She b-mailed me after that, but I did not b-mail back as I didn't want to go against her wishes. I just deleted it after a brief scan. I don't remember what it said. I dislike bmail as I have seen too many stung by it, and then there is background stuff going on, and then it shows on the boards and I dunno WTF is going on cuz I not in the loop. I think its best, for the most part, to be kept on the boards, cuz then the group can help regulate responses. Anything I write is there for all to see, and judge if they wish, and hopefully let me know when I stray.
So I do NOT beleive in long blocks, I di not see their purpose. But short blocks I think are one solution to this problem.
As for SSSS I find it hard to beleive she doesn't know that many care for her here. She is a longtime poster with many friends. She occassionally has to take a break, but thankfully has returned. I am eager to hear (but no, I will not post, no matter how happy and exited I am for her :-( )
how things progress with the new T , she sounds very good.
I dunno if I made sense.
I just don't want noboddy to think I am bad is all, I get scared that people think I am cold and hard cuz I am dispassionate lotsa times.
I feel like I keep saying wrong things and I dunno what they are. I dunno if I even making sense.
M
Posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 19:48:44
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » Deputy Racer, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 8:31:59
No disrespect to any of those genuinely concerned for a friend, but how do we know for certain that any administrative thread for the immediate future isn't in some way polluted by the new research and pseudo participants?
Posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 19:55:23
In reply to Re: This is so hard » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 18:23:41
Yes, despite your presupposition, I do understand that the correct way to try to help a poster is to make positive suggestions, and not to be at all critical. My point is that there are occasions when mild, positive suggestions are simply not going to be noticed by a person who is under tremendous emotional pressure. This appears to have happened in the present situation. It's at that point that we no longer have acceptable ways to help. Several posters have expressed the same feeling of helplessness on this thread.
Thank you for pointing out to me that Babblers are not therapists. I assume that you must have thought I was uncertain about that vital point. As to your reminding me that other posters have feelings *also*, I must also assume that you think I am unaware of that, even though every single post of mine on this topic has emphasized this exact point- that we need to always balance the needs of a poster in distress with the needs of everyone else in our community..
When I have been blocked here, I have been astonished by how strong my feelings of having been rejected actually are. It is as though I have been part of a tribe, and have suddenly been cast out. At the same time, I have never had the slightest feeling that Bob, or any deputy, have rejecting feelings towards me. I do not feel that anyone is doing anything other than doing their best to administer the site as fairly as possible, and I know that it is often a difficult and thankless job. Although you seem to assume that I do not know what the site guidelines are, as it happens, I have managed to learn exactly what they are over the course of five years of participation here. I know that good, fair administration, not any personal dislike of me, is what informs all of the decisions about PCBs and blocks. When I have been blocked, what has made me feel so rejected and alone is never any feelings of rejection by anyone; it is that I was suddenly alone and cut off from communication and the possibility of repaired dialogue during a time of heightened need for just those things with just this community..
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 20:27:27
In reply to basic misunderstandings across the board... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 19:55:23
I don't know what I said that caused you to respond that way.
But I'm too tired to try to figure it out.
Even if I'm stating the obvious, that's at most a stupid thing for me to do.
I am clearly either erring greatly in my judgment today or communicating very poorly.
I'm stepping away now.
Posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 20:27:51
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 19:48:44
Toph - if you are referring to me, I've been on Babble on and off for many years, under various names. I was here when Babble was just one board for meds. I'm pretty sure Dinah knows who I am and can confirm that I've been around the babble block.
I'm NOT a pseudo participant, just a grumpy one. It's a bummer how that project causes such paranoia.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 20:29:36
In reply to Re: This is so hard » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on December 8, 2008, at 18:44:23
I appreciate it.
Posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 20:46:52
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » lucie lu, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:08:48
> It's not the admin action I have a problem with - it's the timing. If SSSS was having trouble all weekend perhaps a Rephrase, or Please be Supportive, or an offical Are You Okay??? could have helped?
>
> I also understand that the admins have lives and may not have been available to do this.Bay, again, I think if you read through all the threads you would see that Dinah and also many posters did try gentle suggestions. On multiple threads. It may have helped on some level but the behavior still escalated.
> And as far as cliques go - they have existed at Babble, and most online communities forever. They change in size and composition, but they are always there. They aren't necessarily a bad thing - depends on behavior.
>
> Bay
Posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 20:57:02
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 20:46:52
Then I was completely off base, and made false assumptions. I only saw the pain under her anger and reacted in mother bear mode. I apologize to those involved.
bay
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2008, at 20:58:20
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 20:46:52
I know it can be difficult to see the behavior of someone we care about seem to "escalate", especially if we believe we can predict the outcome and feel helpless to prevent it. These may be times when it might be more effective to "strike when the iron is cold" versus when it is "hot". It may be that there are times when someone's "iron is so hot" that the heat/pain somehow affects how an attempt at support is received. There are times when it can be more helpful and effective to talk through stuff when someone is not so immediately caught up in the pain and upset. In my own experience, there have been times that I've been able to take in and process support better when I've had a chance to apply coping skills, soothe myself, or otherwise get some distance from the flare up, so that I felt clearer in my head and could better use what folks said to me.
I don't know of a good way to tell the difference between when to strike a hot iron and when to wait til it cools, but sometimes a experiencing a pattern of behavior can suggest a likely course.
Yeeks, that was difficult and awkward, and as SSSS suggested, that might mean this might not be the best thing to post. My intentions are to try to help all involved, so all please take what you will and leave what you will from this.
gg
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 21:11:49
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » lucie lu, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 20:57:02
nuttin wrong w/a momma bear being protective I reckon.
Kinda nice I reckon.
I be a momma bear w/my kids.
I protect my kids.
Posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 23:27:20
In reply to (((mammma bears))), posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 21:11:49
I second muffy's sentiments.Everyone has good intentions. It's just not always clear what to do with them. No perfect answer, just good questions.
Peace to all.
Lucie
Posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 23:38:22
In reply to Re: Blocked » Toph, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 20:27:51
> Toph - if you are referring to me...
>I wasn't. Between name changes and sporatic participation I have no idea who most people are. That used to not bother me.
>...It's a bummer how that project causes such paranoia.
>
Bay, if you were referring to me, it wouldn't be the first time I've acted paranoid here.
Posted by Bobby on December 9, 2008, at 0:17:54
In reply to Site guidelines, posted by Deputy Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 12:39:29
..but sometimes during battle--an officer must make a difficult order. "Do I try and save private X and lose the rest of the group---or save the rest of the soldiers in the group by sacrificing private X?" In theory---the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The chain of command is set up specifically to limit casualties. Some posts are indeed cries for help--and need to be addressed as such. But----who can predict the amount of posters who could also be triggered into making irreversible decisions by reading such dramatic events? Babble is a great place of support----but--in crisis--nothing beats real life help. Maybe it's a type of tough love--to push someone towards real life help by denying uncensored freedom here. I don't know. It is sad to see good people spiral downward---but I have to cling to the hope that someone in their lives will be there to catch them. I'm really really glad that I'm not in charge of inforcing the rules here----but they're there for a reason.
Posted by BayLeaf on December 9, 2008, at 5:59:06
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 23:38:22
then I'm the paranoid one. seemed like my name was the only newish one in the thread.
bay
Posted by BayLeaf on December 9, 2008, at 6:03:24
In reply to (((mammma bears))), posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 21:11:49
i don't really know LLLL. her hurt just felt familiar. so does yours.
bay
Posted by Toph on December 9, 2008, at 6:54:42
In reply to Re: Blocked » Toph, posted by BayLeaf on December 9, 2008, at 5:59:06
No, my bad. I replied to your original post not thinking that you might think it was directed at you. Sorry.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 9, 2008, at 8:29:50
In reply to Re: This is so hard, posted by TherapyGirl on December 8, 2008, at 17:00:01
> I can definitely see everyone's viewpoint here and I think all make valid points. But I wish there was some way to, like twinleaf said, provide support for such an obvious cry of help AND keep the behavior from escalating so that everyone feels safe here.
>
> I understand where SSSS is because I've been there before. I hope she will work her way out of this place -- she's done it before and I suspect she will do it again. But I wish she didn't have to do it alone.TherapyGirl,
You wrote,[...I hope (that) she will {work her way out of} this place...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to refer to as {this place} and {work her way out of} that you hopw that she works her way out of. If you could clarify what you are wanting to mean here, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly for sometimes a {place} could mean a {state of mind} or a physical environment.
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2008, at 10:33:54
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 19:48:44
> No disrespect to any of those genuinely concerned for a friend, but how do we know for certain that any administrative thread for the immediate future isn't in some way polluted by the new research and pseudo participants?
I've also been thinking about that, Topher. That is one main reason that I decided to stay away from here as much as possible. I had to comment when I read your post.
The question could be "how would we know what is real about the administration's goals?
I look at PB more as a research project now than I did three years ago. Guinea pigs.
I could look for another forum..even a "more spirited" political one..right now I'm too lazy.
Posted by Phillipa on December 9, 2008, at 13:02:37
In reply to Re: Blocked » Toph, posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2008, at 10:33:54
I relate to that. Being lazy. Seemed to me only that poster was trying to joke despite feeling bad. Now that's only my opinion. I do feel the poster was upset to begin with. But didn't feel trying to be hurtful maybe should read it again. Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on December 9, 2008, at 13:08:42
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 19:48:44
Because we are not the subjects of the research study. There is no guinea pig factor here (although they are incredible cute).
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20081003/msgs/861412.html
Posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 14:37:45
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Phillipa on December 9, 2008, at 13:02:37
A couple of things, in no particular order and to no one in particular. First, a quick comment about whether board dynamics were being influenced by new people (via the "PB experiment," and my sincere apologies to any newcomers who might have joined through this route!) As a participant in the original admin discussion about that issue, I am sensitive to the issue of how new members might affect existing group dynamics. Interestingly, I have seen on the psych board only a few new posters since then, certainly nothing like the "deluge" we feared. With regard to the present situation we've been discussing, nearly all involved were regular posters, many long-time. So the "new poster" factor does not seem to have played any part here.
The second is that I think that a lot of what we are debating boils down to the role and administration of boundaries on Babble. That is what PB's guidelines are - just boundaries. And those of us who participate on the psych board should be VERY familiar with the concept of boundaries. While PB is not therapy, there are similarities. Therapeutic boundaries exist for the protection of both participants. They create a safe place where the work of therapy can be done. Where boundaries have collapsed, and there are unfortunately too many instances we are aware of, the consequences have been disastrous; the blocked poster is one who was profoundly (and wantonly, IMO) injured by a former T - an experience from which I think she is still having a hard time recovering from, and which is still a major source of her great pain.
So Babble is not therapy, but many of the dynamics are similar and that is why it works. Participants need safety above all to enable them to interact on a genuine and deep level with other Babblers, share deep and personal things, and participate in one anothers' growth and healing. We can disagree with one another and still remain safe because the board is boundaried. Without boundaries? I really believe this circle of safety, as in therapy, is destroyed. We can say that we should be able to handle "exceptions" but can we really? Who really knows where a boundary crossing or violation will lead? Or what the consequences will be for any individual? In therapy, boundary crossings usually start with the best of intentions, but in some cases may precede more flagrant and profound boundary violations which are very destructive to both the therapy and the participants. My point is, that we need to keep boundaries on Babble for our own and others' protection, and to ensure that the board remains a safe place where caring and healing can take place. So although we as individuals may not like rules much (believe me, I have issues with authority as much as anyone plus I have a *serious* mamma bear gene :) I have come to learn in therapy that boundaries really exist for everyone's protection. The point is not to ignore people in need, but to help them as much as possible *within the boundaried space.* This is not to say that other helpful actions can't be taken outside that boundaried space, e.g. other forms of personal communication (b-mail? chat?), and perhaps ways to do this should be more actively explored and facilitated in cases like this one. But I really believe that it is critical to keep reasonably intact boundaries in place to keep the PB "space" safe and functional for everyone and at all times. Once broken, hard to repair. There is too much at stake, the board is an invaluable resource for most of us, so let's protect it as well as each other. Safety is such a rare and valuable commodity in this world.
Lucie
Posted by Justherself54 on December 9, 2008, at 15:26:22
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 14:37:45
What a great post. I've been on and off the boards for a few years now and have struggled with the "mama bear" syndrome also. Thank you, as it's helped me accept the boundaries of babble a little better.
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 9, 2008, at 18:35:52
In reply to Lou's request for clarification-pstvmnd?, posted by Lou Pilder on December 9, 2008, at 8:29:50
I meant for her to work her way out of the emotional place she is in.
Posted by Toph on December 9, 2008, at 18:57:10
In reply to Re: Blocked » Toph, posted by seldomseen on December 9, 2008, at 13:08:42
> Because we are not the subjects of the research study. There is no guinea pig factor here (although they are incredible cute).
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20081003/msgs/861412.htmlI prefer hamsters s. Getting furry Nikki for Christmas was one of my best Christmases ever. But I digress. I don't feel like a rodent. And I think, as misguided as Bob may be at times, that he is well-intentioned. I simply feel uneasy about 230 people observing and/or participating here who are doing so with completely different motivations than what made you and I become attached here. It changes the place like the preverbial butterfly wing theory, and it changes me and how I react. My hamster would bury himself in his cedar chips when I watched and run relentlessly on that damn wheel when I tried to sleep. Then there's the whole issue of spilling my guts to someone who is merely hoping for grist for a paper. Creeps me out.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.