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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 164. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:59:02
In reply to Re: Research project - who is sponsoring it » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on November 8, 2008, at 16:30:26
> Dr. Bob
> My post did not go through. I would like to know who is sponsoring this research project. Is it the University of Chicago? Is it NorthShore University Health Care? Is it just you personally? Wil these 230 participants be MH professionals? Medical student? Psychiatry residents? Patients?
>
> You know you must let people know the parameters of the research project or you risk an ethics complaint if not an outright class action lawsuit.
>
> Will you be using old postings from when you used the Universiy of Chicago as part of your email address?
>
> This is preposterous. I am thinking I should be contacting my attorney right now.
>
> Zeba
Zeba,
You wrote,[...research project..]. Mr. Hsiung has posted,
[...PB will be part of a new research project soon. Participants of this research project may be joining our community here...].
Now the {participants} are not the members here for the participants are going to join this community. {This research project} as I read the grammatical structure of Mr. Hsiung's post,is outside of Mr. Hsiung's research. I see this as the members here being able to have more members to receive support and education from and to enhance the variety of the topics posted. Thos participants are comming from some place, but does that matter? If so, why?
Lou
Posted by Wittgensteinz on November 8, 2008, at 18:04:04
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
Seldom,
I think the problem is that the lack of information leads peoples' minds to wander...
For example, within the realms of us not being a part of the experiment, the study could bring in 230 people intolerant and/or negative toward those with mental illness, to see whether the experience of taking part in an on-line community changes their view of the mentally ill. Or it could be that these 230 are being paid to take part in this community and that the dynamics could drastically change when there is a sudden influx of members and then after the study-period, all these seemingly new supportive members suddenly disappear. I think we do become attached to those who post here - if someone posted avidly for 6 months and then just stopped it can bring some sadness - now imagine the impact of this potentially happening with 230. Likewise the presence of the normal members and the 'participant members' could lead to a divide in the community - two groups with each its own identity of sorts. People might decide not to respond to threads started by 'the other group' etc. If those taking part in the study know, for example, that all those in the study have some things in common e.g. all in therapy for the first time, they might feel safer engaging with others who claim to be in the study and not those who came to the forum for other reasons.
These are just hypothetical situations (and perhaps rather far-fetched) to illustrate the point that the study might well have an impact on us despite our not actually being participants.
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 18:50:29
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
I suppose I can imagine types of statistical research that only involved the 230 people-- things like how many posts they posted over a certain period of time, or an analysis of their posts only, in some very concrete way-- such as how often they brought up certain types of problems, or how much they interacted, or in what ways.
My problem would only arise if the content of discussions were part of the research, because in that case, we would in some sense be subjects of the experiment too-- because the posts to which people reply are inevitably part of the content of their reply.
Even though my personal identity might not be in question, some people might not feel comfortable with that, and I have some issue with disrupting the flow of the board in such a way.
I have some other thoughts, which I may post later.
Nadezda
Posted by Angela2 on November 8, 2008, at 19:05:15
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
Dr. Bob,
This may have been asked, as I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but Why can't you tell us what the research project is about until it is over with? Did I read that right in your post?
Angela
Posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
I have to agree with seldomseen here. He/she (? sorry) made good and relevant points about this whole situation.
No offense at all, but you guys are getting a little carried away. Calm down. It's reasonable to ask questions-- i'm curious about some of the details too-- but you folks are being far too critical.
1) Use of this site is entirely voluntary (and public), and, as someone else mentioned, we have no personal ownership over this site (i.e., this site is not *yours*).
2) You haven't even waited to see how this will play out or affect things differently. At least wait until some of these potential worst-case scenario fears potentially played out before complaining about them!
3) It's the same day as Dr. Bob's original post. You haven't even waited to give him a chance to try to respond to your questions, not that I think he really has any obligation to anyway.
4) (What Lou Pilder and seldom seen said.)It seems to me we're kind of acting like a kid who asked their parent to buy them a toy and then getting mad at our parent when it isn't exactly like we hoped and thought it would be.
I apologize if this was not civil enough. I don't mean to offend anyone. I do feel a bit frustrated though when people are precipitously critical (not that I am immune to this weakness either, of course).
> Dr bob was quite clear in his post that we are not the subjects of this research project.
>
> No one is experimenting on us. That's why consent is not required.
>
> Like everyone, I don't know the particulars of the study, but it seems to me that babble is just a part of the *place* that the research is conducted. We just happen to be in this place.
>
> We have been here for a long time telling our stories to strangers, I don't see how participants in a research study being here should change that.
>
> I mean what if the participants in the research program receive direct benefit from babble? I know I have and am glad to hopefully extend that benefit to the actual subjects.
>
> Seldom.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
Hello, maybe this has already been asked, but can you please post or answer my post as to when this study begins? As in what actual day, and for how long it will last? When new posters arrive on board? I'm new (week?) and don't want anyone thinking I'm posing as part of your study. I've made a couple of supportive friends and would like not to lose them. No offense intended.
Thanks~Jade
Posted by Deneb on November 8, 2008, at 20:03:14
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
I hope we are just getting carried away. Maybe Dr. Bob wouldn't bring in people that would probably hurt us?
I know I'm probably getting carried away, not thinking straight.
At PsychCentral, tons of people join up everyday and it's not scary or anything.
It's different there though. I mostly lurk or chat. It's too big there.
I hope it's going to be OK.
Posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 20:04:43
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
It would be more helpful to me if you stated why you don't have a problem with the research. It's understandable that many here would have questions.
I don't agree that Bob has no obligation- or at least that he shouldn't respond at all-- to the questions. I think it would at least be respectful; plus it's a bit unsettling to have a lot of new posters-- if that is going to be the case--. Perhaps none of our concerns will be borne out, but it's better for people to express them, if they have them, than not to-- and feel less jittery about who new people are, about responses and subjects, etc-- and , in addition, that some secret activites are being carried out, which they don't know about.
I've noticed in that past that some people suspect that Bob is doing research, and seem uncomfortable or upset with that thought-- so I'm concerned that the research will negatively them-- and possibly others. That's one among several concerns I have.If Bob can help people feel more secure and safe about the whole subject-- then this will have accomplished a great deal.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 20:39:21
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » Questionmark, posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 20:04:43
I feel that one thing we can all do to avoid over reacting is not to change our names. That way we know who is really already part of the community. I'm also wondering about fake illnesses? I too have met some wonderful people here lately and do trust them completely just to reassure some who may be reading. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 20:56:18
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
I certainly hope that any support you've found here will remain, and that posters won't treat our fellow posters any differently, whatever we might feel about the administration of the site.
I personally am going to assume that any new posters will be no more likely to be insincere about what they post than what would generally be possible on any anonymous internet forum.
I'm glad you found us, and I hope you find the same warm welcome you've already found.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 22:19:33
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
> Hello, maybe this has already been asked, but can you please post or answer my post as to when this study begins? As in what actual day, and for how long it will last? When new posters arrive on board? I'm new (week?) and don't want anyone thinking I'm posing as part of your study. I've made a couple of supportive friends and would like not to lose them. No offense intended.
>
> Thanks~JadeHello again, thanks for the response, are you not able to give a time frame regarding when, exactly, "participants" will be on boards?
~Jade
Posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Zeba on November 8, 2008, at 16:37:09
You are absolutely right, Zeba (Ozland-RealMe-I hope I have remembered right!) It would not be difficult for him to give us a brief, accurate statement of what the research project is about, and what the role of the large number of new posters is going to be- undoubtedly, it cannot be the same as ours has been, just as our own roles will be changed. If he did that, posters of long or short duration would feel a bit more respected for what they have contributed and received in these recent years. Everyone could also then make an informed decision as to whether continued participation will contribute to their own continued growth and well-being, or whether it will not.
I am waiting.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:47
In reply to Re: Research project DINAH, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 22:19:33
I'm afraid that I'm just a poster, with all the same concerns posters have. I may help out with Administration with regard to civility, but I'm not "Admin" per se. Only Dr. Bob can help you with the questions.
I hope he finds a way to spend time with us, to allay any concerns we express, for the benefit of all.
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 0:04:42
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
> It would not be difficult for him to give us a brief, accurate statement of what the research project is about, and what the role of the large number of new posters is going to be- undoubtedly, it cannot be the same as ours has been,
I don't know that I can agree. From Dr Bob's wording -- and I'm with 10der, I think he is very, very careful with every single word -- I'm not sure he can tell us more. He didn't say that *he* was doing research, so it may be someone else's project. He may not have their permission to disclose more.And even if he could tell us more, someone else has already pointed out that disclosing more information would introduce bias into the study, and invalidate the results. Either our behavior would change, or the participants' behavior would change -- either way, the results would lose some of their resonance.
He's said that the people who may come here would be the participants in the study, and I trust Dr Bob not to lie to us. I think if he meant that researchers would be coming here, he's have said that, so I think the people who may come here really are the ones being studied. Since this community exists in a certain form, I can't believe that there is any intent to disrupt the established patterns.
Obviously, I don't post as often as I used to, and I am much more selective in what I say -- after a painful experience left me feeling more than a bit alienated, but that's a different story. Nonetheless, I've been at Babble since 1997, and I do feel connected to it and to many people here. I'm kinda excited by this, and I hope something good comes of it. In fact, I'm kinda excited that there will be new stories on the boards, new names, and maybe more activity.
Who knows? Maybe some of the participants who do show up will decide to stick around and enrich our community? I'd like to think that is a possibility.
Peace.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 1:31:10
In reply to Re: Research project DINAH » JadeKelly, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:47
> I'm afraid that I'm just a poster, with all the same concerns posters have. I may help out with Administration with regard to civility, but I'm not "Admin" per se. Only Dr. Bob can help you with the questions.
>
> I hope he finds a way to spend time with us, to allay any concerns we express, for the benefit of all.Dinah, thanks for responding anyway. Maybe we'll find out from Dr. Bob.
~Jade
Posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:37:33
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 0:04:42
As someone who has published research, you are to get permission of the subjects. He is saying we are not the subjects, but this is only partially true. I have participated in many studies as an undergraduate student too. One is not so vague and evasive about what one is going to do. I will be contacting the University of Chicago on Monday. I do not take this lightly. In the meantime I will contact Dr. Bob. It may be a good study, but he is going about this in a way that I consider unethical, Check the ethics guidelines for psychiatrists. I will be asking other psychiatrists I know what they think.
Zeba
Posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:48:09
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
> Dr bob was quite clear in his post that we are not the subjects of this research project.
>
> No one is experimenting on us. That's why consent is not required.
>
> Like everyone, I don't know the particulars of the study, but it seems to me that babble is just a part of the *place* that the research is conducted. We just happen to be in this place.
>
> We have been here for a long time telling our stories to strangers, I don't see how participants in a research study being here should change that.
>
> I mean what if the participants in the research program receive direct benefit from babble? I know I have and am glad to hopefully extend that benefit to the actual subjects.
>
> Seldom.Indirectly we are subjects. I have not posted in a very long time other than occasionally on the Medication board. I haven't even looked at other boards but was alerted by someone to look on this board.
I am not a guinea pig and don't choose to be. I don't want to be used, and I do not think I am being silly. I don't want this to descend into insults. I hope it won't.Zeba
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 5:58:27
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
The only time I ever been in some kind of study (excluding this life as such... emphasising "this life") is one time at the dentist pulling out some teeth. The surgeon asked me "I need your verbal consent to this... there are some med-students here that are just gonna stand by and watch while I perform the procedure.. is that OK with you"... and I said "yes, sure".
As we are on the internet on an open channel (owned by one Dr Bob) it is not required from him that he asks of our consent.. however.. the title "doctor" would imply that he stands on ethical ground and should act like in real world about these matters. As he posted this as a discussion one could assume that he wants some response (and he got it).
Without knowing what the study is about I cannot participate while it is being conducted. The simple answer is that such a thing would deeply affect my way of behaving and thinking in here... and if someone now asks me... "this is an open channel.. if that does not bother you why should this study bother you"... and the simple answer is that an open channel actually bothers me to the point where I take nesseary steps of precaution about some details of myself and my life... and it is not only "oh, better not give away my birthdate".. it can be describinig a situation in my life and changin details in it, for example WHERE it actually was and such things. Further... I do not normally suspect people sitting around and acting... if there are some people out there doing it for some purpose they are in minority... but it does not make me think less about it. We are many times sitting and talking about an industry (the med-industry) that owns part of this world... I take into consideration that they read what is going on in a place like this.. a bit more unlikely they have "agents" running around and making propaganda about their meds... but not unthinkable IMO. They do it in real life (the lobby industry)... so why not on the internet.
Knowing you are in a study , without knowing its intentions, can be very contraproductive IMO. It is for me as one million thoughts about what it actually is about affects my beaviour in it.
Dr Bob should state the purpose with the study and some major details.. if he does so.. I would like to participate IF I found it intersting. Else... I am out of here til the study is over.
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:28:17
In reply to Re: Research project » Racer, posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:37:33
If I held your concerns, I would first inquire if the study has received IRB approval.
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:31:02
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
He did indicate what the role of the posters will be:
"I do want to reassure you that current posters aren't the subjects of this research and that the *research participants will be here for support and education*, not to study the rest of you."
Seldom.
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 6:40:40
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:31:02
> He did indicate what the role of the posters will be:
>
> "I do want to reassure you that current posters aren't the subjects of this research and that the *research participants will be here for support and education*, not to study the rest of you."
>
> Seldom.Yes. And this:
>There may be as many as 230 of them, and they may or may not mention that they're in the study.
Then I see no reason why we should not be allowed to know what they are here for... if THEY are the target of the study that makes us some kind "care-takers" (on purpose in a STUDY!)... why should not WE know about its purposes then? It does not make sense.
230 elders learning to use the internet... :) top-secret info! Come one Dr Bob... please clarify so my overactivity drops to sane levels :P
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 7:00:49
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:28:17
> If I held your concerns, I would first inquire if the study has received IRB approval.
Hm... I then make it official:
Has it, Dr Bob?
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 7:04:22
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 6:40:40
My contention is that since they are here for support and education, then how are they different from any participant in Babble?
How does our role change at all?
It's like a phlebotomist drawing labs for a clinical study. Do they know the specifics of the study? NO! They just know that someone needs their blood drawn so they do their jobs.
It's just another person.
For us, it's just another person at Babble.
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 7:31:41
In reply to My contention. » Extreme, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 7:04:22
> My contention is that since they are here for support and education, then how are they different from any participant in Babble?
>
> How does our role change at all?
>
> It's like a phlebotomist drawing labs for a clinical study. Do they know the specifics of the study? NO! They just know that someone needs their blood drawn so they do their jobs.
>
> It's just another person.
>
> For us, it's just another person at Babble.I have no further comments on this... I just changed my own policy. Please understand, seldomseen.. I am not angry with you or something like that.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 9:00:26
In reply to My contention. » Extreme, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 7:04:22
My guess is that part of the problem is that the participants will know what's going on, while the existing posters won't. There is a potential for existing posters to feel like they do when someone changes their posting name. Like they're entering into a relationship without as much information about that relationship as the other party. That leads to anxiety.
Have you ever heard the expression "You have the advantage over me."? It comes up when one party speaks to another and obviously knows their name and who they are, while the other doesn't. And there is truth behind the conventional phrase.
I think the difference between this and a lab technician is that a lab technician is paid to draw blood samples. That's his job. He assumes his employer tells him what he needs to know to be safe in doing so. We're not being paid to do something relatively routine. We're participating here in forming relationships. (Well, that may be less true on the meds board where people may come to disseminate and receive information.) Certainly anyone who comes here at any time may be less than candid. But this is a contrived situation that puts us, in the sense of that expression, at a disadvantage.
Also, while this is less of a concern for me because everything I know about Dr. Bob shows that Babble is something he does for the benefit of Babblers in terms of support and education, I recognize that there have always been those who are concerned about the involvement of Babble in his presentations and papers. I don't share that underlying concern, but I do respect that it is a reality for many.
People react differently to authority, to secrets, to concerns about many of these issues. People have differing levels of familiarity with research and what it may or may not entail.
I hope that Dr. Bob, and those who aren't anxious about one or all issues involved, are at least respectful of those who do feel anxious and fearful. We aren't foolish or silly. We're just different, with different tolerance for change, secrecy, lack of an even playing field, unilateral actions by authority, etc. We're respectful of other differences on Babble. Hopefully we can be respectful of this one too.
Which is not to negate the responsibility of those of us who are anxious to express those concerns and whatever anger we feel in terms that are respectful of Dr. Bob as well as others. And needless to say to be welcoming and polite to newcomers who may or may not be involved and who may have perfectly innocent reasons for being here and who may be perfectly sincere in all they do.
I always tell my son that what others do is what others do. My actions on babble to other posters will be the same as they always are. And I have every confidence that they should be, that Dr. Bob would not allow anything that would make fools of us or hurt us. But even if I'm wrong, what difference does it make? If someone else behaves dishonorably, that doesn't negate the fact that I behaved with kindness and honor. Not that I'm at all saying that anyone has or would behave dishonorably. It's just a world view. So I'm not going to refuse to post on Babble, and I'm not going to be reserved around newcomers unless and until I discover that reserve would be prudent with any given newcomer. No different than now.
But I do understand, and I empathize. I too dislike being placed in difficult situations. And I expect those who place me in the difficult situation to do what they can to make it less difficult.
Dr. Bob? Please do what you can to make things less difficult for those who have supported Babble and are feeling anxious about the unknown and the known.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Script revised: February 4, 2008
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