![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 141 to 165 of 185. Go back in thread:
Posted by sunnydays on July 2, 2007, at 15:22:39
In reply to Re: blocks, options, and prevention, posted by Honore on July 2, 2007, at 12:12:43
I agree with Honore's presentation of the issues. Being able to come back within a relatively short time and change one's behavior would facilitate learning a lot more than being gone for so long you may not even remember what got you blocked in the first place by the time you get back.
sunnydays
Posted by muffled on July 2, 2007, at 16:55:18
In reply to Re: blocks, options, and prevention, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2007, at 11:41:53
>It would've been nice if all these blocks could've been prevented in the first place...
**It'd be nice if we were all perfect...
M
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2007, at 22:10:01
In reply to Re: blocks, options, and prevention » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on July 2, 2007, at 16:55:18
I believe if a therapist or a pdoc blocked their patient cause they didn't agree with what they were saying and didn't hurt anyone that could cause abandontment issues and worse. When we need help the most we should be able to support each other. As far as gg she's had a rough time and has helped so many others I personally don't think she should be blocked. Now I base this only on gg as I don't go to many boards and know her and not the others. Same could be true for them don't know. But 33 weeks is in my opinion like being in jail. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on July 3, 2007, at 1:29:35
In reply to Re: blocks, options, and prevention, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2007, at 11:41:53
I don't agree with that 2:3 ratio thing.
I think personal incivility is *much* more important, although in fact I wonder if it is possible to codify.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2007, at 16:35:34
In reply to Re: blocks, options, and prevention, posted by Klavot on July 2, 2007, at 13:54:17
> there are moments when one impulsively does things, and then is taken up short by what one has done.
>
> If it's a question of giving people a chance to repeat an experience, so as to learn enough from the repetitions that it would actually help change behavior, allowing people to come back and make mistakes and being blocked more often would, for me, make the learning process more probable.
>
> HonoreI agree, it can be hard if someone's impulsive or needs many repetitions to learn, but if people can't make mistakes as often, there's less overall incivility and more supportive overall atmosphere.
--
> What about r = 39.
>
> It is the smallest r that guarantees that after 6 months, previous incivility will still factor. So even if the previous block was only one week, and that expired 6 months ago, then
>
> B = S + D*[3^(-P/39)] = S + 1*[3^(-24/39)] = S + 0.51 -> S + 1 week.
>
> KlavotThanks for working on this. Hmm, powers of e probably are about as intuitive than powers of 3, and if we set:
0.5 = exp(-24/r)
then:
r = 24/ln2 ~ 35
Another issue is when a poster is immediately uncivil again. Currently, if it's impersonal and S = 2:
B = S * (D - P/r) = 2 * D
But with your formula and S = 1:
B = S + D * exp(-P/r) = 1 + D
It makes the formula more complicated, but to add the exponential decay and keep the current doubling (exponential growth), it could be:
B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r)
with S = 2 or 3. So if D = 48 and P = 147 and it were impersonal, we would still get:
B = 1 + (2 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 2.42 -> 2 weeks
In Zenhussy's case, however, it was personal, not impersonal, so it would've been an extra week:
B = 1 + (3 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 3.14 -> 3 weeks
Bob
Posted by muffled on July 4, 2007, at 22:09:34
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2007, at 16:35:34
> I agree, it can be hard if someone's impulsive or needs many repetitions to learn, but if people can't make mistakes as often, there's less overall incivility and more supportive overall atmosphere.**Ya but you know what, I myself would be willing to put up with a little incivility now and again, cuz I KNOW we not perfect. I realize people have their moments. I don't feel that constantly smashing them on the head (obvo figuratively speaking, and IMO only) is truly all that beneficial. It just frikken HURTS :-(
Like I say to my kids..."use your words", rather than smacking each other.
Don't always work, but sometimes it does, and they learn, mebbea little slower, but kinder...
And now that I've re read this, I DON'T feel its more supportive atmosphere to be blocking too freely and so long. It just becomes more FEARFUL. Thats all...
Short blocks, more PBC usage is better.
Did you not notice Bob that the deps did VERY well in your absence? The times that there were bigger troubles was because there needed to be backup from an actual administrator, and that wasn't there...It was situations where they had involvement or other dep involvement, so they (understandably) were reluctant to intervene, or they got caught and needed backup, but there was none...
Other than that they done REAL good, with less blocks...
An occasional backup I think is all they really need, but you goto come when they call, or its no good.
Thats my thots.
> Thanks for working on this. Hmm, powers of e probably are about as intuitive than powers of 3, and if we set:
>
> 0.5 = exp(-24/r)
>
> then:
>
> r = 24/ln2 ~ 35
>
> Another issue is when a poster is immediately uncivil again. Currently, if it's impersonal and S = 2:
>
> B = S * (D - P/r) = 2 * D
>
> But with your formula and S = 1:
>
> B = S + D * exp(-P/r) = 1 + D
>
> It makes the formula more complicated, but to add the exponential decay and keep the current doubling (exponential growth), it could be:
>
> B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r)
>
> with S = 2 or 3. So if D = 48 and P = 147 and it were impersonal, we would still get:
>
> B = 1 + (2 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 2.42 -> 2 weeks
>
> In Zenhussy's case, however, it was personal, not impersonal, so it would've been an extra week:
>
> B = 1 + (3 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 3.14 -> 3 weeks**OMG!!!!!!!Klavot and Bob are math BUDS!!! Its like reading a foreign language to me!!!
Kinda cool actually.
Wonder if it would work...
(IMEO)(in my EXALTED opinion) !
I'm kidding around, cuz this is hard for me this blocking stuff :-( When I freaked some I joke alot.
But actually I am VERY SERIOUS bout the hurt factor :-(
:-(
M
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2007, at 2:39:51
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by muffled on July 4, 2007, at 22:09:34
> Ya but you know what, I myself would be willing to put up with a little incivility now and again, cuz I KNOW we not perfect.
And no system is going to be, either...
> And now that I've re read this, I DON'T feel its more supportive atmosphere to be blocking too freely and so long. It just becomes more FEARFUL. Thats all...
That's a good point, I wouldn't want it to be civil just because people were too afraid to post.
> Did you not notice Bob that the deps did VERY well in your absence?
I did, and I really appreciate and feel proud of them.
> this is hard for me this blocking stuff :-( When I freaked some I joke alot.
> But actually I am VERY SERIOUS bout the hurt factor :-(I am, too, and though I think other factors in the equation are also important, I'm glad we might be able to reduce this one.
Bob
Posted by Klavot on July 5, 2007, at 3:11:14
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2007, at 16:35:34
> > there are moments when one impulsively does things, and then is taken up short by what one has done.
> >
> > If it's a question of giving people a chance to repeat an experience, so as to learn enough from the repetitions that it would actually help change behavior, allowing people to come back and make mistakes and being blocked more often would, for me, make the learning process more probable.
> >
> > Honore
>
> I agree, it can be hard if someone's impulsive or needs many repetitions to learn, but if people can't make mistakes as often, there's less overall incivility and more supportive overall atmosphere.
>
> --
>
> > What about r = 39.
> >
> > It is the smallest r that guarantees that after 6 months, previous incivility will still factor. So even if the previous block was only one week, and that expired 6 months ago, then
> >
> > B = S + D*[3^(-P/39)] = S + 1*[3^(-24/39)] = S + 0.51 -> S + 1 week.
> >
> > Klavot
>
> Thanks for working on this. Hmm, powers of e probably are about as intuitive than powers of 3, and if we set:
>
> 0.5 = exp(-24/r)
>
> then:
>
> r = 24/ln2 ~ 35Yes, when working with exp(x) you would need r = 35. But for 3^x you get r = 39. But we can stick to exp(x) if you are interested, that's fine by me. My concern was simply that the calculator that comes bundled with MS Windows does not seem to have a function for retrieving e. This means some posters would have no way of calculating block lengths or verifying the arithmetic behind block lengths, which might cause complaints.
>
> Another issue is when a poster is immediately uncivil again. Currently, if it's impersonal and S = 2:
>
> B = S * (D - P/r) = 2 * D
>
> But with your formula and S = 1:
>
> B = S + D * exp(-P/r) = 1 + D
>
> It makes the formula more complicated, but to add the exponential decay and keep the current doubling (exponential growth), it could be:
>
> B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r)
>
> with S = 2 or 3. So if D = 48 and P = 147 and it were impersonal, we would still get:
>
> B = 1 + (2 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 2.42 -> 2 weeks
>
> In Zenhussy's case, however, it was personal, not impersonal, so it would've been an extra week:
>
> B = 1 + (3 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 3.14 -> 3 weeks
>
> BobOK. My thinking was that with a formula of the form
B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r),
you have a situation where the severity of a current incivility is extrapolated to previous incivilities, which is why I would prefer not to multiply the term D*exp(-P/r) with S. However, if this is the direction you want to go, then what about the original formula that I posted lower down in another thread:
B = S(D*exp(-P/r) + 1).
This formula allows for doubling or tripling as you see fit, while also being applicable to both repeat incivilities as well as first incivility. For a first incivility, we get
B = S(0*exp(-0/r) + 1) = S.
For the other formula, we get
B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r) = 1 + (S*0 - 1)*exp(-0/r) = 0,
which means you would have to split the formula into cases for a first offense versus repeat offense.
But all this is just a gimmick. The basic idea is to introduce some kind of exponential decay for previous blocks. After that one can build a formula to fit your desired blocking model.
Klavot
Posted by muffled on July 5, 2007, at 9:07:10
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Klavot on July 5, 2007, at 3:11:14
Posted by muffled on July 5, 2007, at 9:18:35
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2007, at 2:39:51
> And no system is going to be, either...**no, its not, maybe a stock formula for blocks is OK as long as it keeps the time down, but maybe where the variable of safety and kindness, and *education*esp is, is in giving the poster more opportunities for rephrases, apologies etc BEFORE a block even occurs. I think a PBC etc from a long time ago has little bearing on present day doings. But if a PBC within the actual thread is ignored then to me that is a very obvo case for a block.
I think with a greater use of PBC's that there will be more learning and less fear. Esp once people realize that a PBC DOESN'T mean a block is gonna allasudden unexpectedly leap out of nowhere and 'get' them, which is unfortunately the way it is now. I think thats partly why people get upset at PBC's, cuz they get afraid.
> > And now that I've re read this, I DON'T feel its more supportive atmosphere to be blocking too freely and so long. It just becomes more FEARFUL. Thats all...
>
> That's a good point, I wouldn't want it to be civil just because people were too afraid to post.**exactly...
Its not good to have someone, eg my kids, behave just cuz they are blindly terrified of me...
> > Did you not notice Bob that the deps did VERY well in your absence?
>
> I did, and I really appreciate and feel proud of them.**WOW. Nicely said :-)
>
> > this is hard for me this blocking stuff :-( When I freaked some I joke alot.
> > But actually I am VERY SERIOUS bout the hurt factor :-(
>
> I am, too, and though I think other factors in the equation are also important, I'm glad we might be able to reduce this one.**I hope so.
I honestly have no idea of what to make of you Bob, I really don't...
And thats a concern to me.
M
Posted by confuzyq on July 5, 2007, at 11:56:59
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2007, at 16:35:34
> In Zenhussy's case, however, it was personal, not impersonal, so it would've been an extra week:
>
> B = 1 + (3 * 48 - 1) * exp(-147/35) = 3.14 -> 3 weeks
>
> Bob...once mom or dad has said that much, generally they should follow through and grant the thing, rather than raise and dash false hopes! Like, "Ok then, if I look at it this way instead, you'd only be grounded for one week, not two months..." Therefore it must be done! ;-)
Note: This does not mean I am projecting any parent-child power issues on my own part onto the administration here. I think it's a fair analogy.
And re this:
> > If it's a question of giving people a chance to repeat an experience, so as to learn enough from the repetitions that it would actually help change behavior, allowing people to come back and make mistakes and being blocked more often would, for me, make the learning process more probable.
> >
> > Honore
>
> I agree, it can be hard if someone's impulsive or needs many repetitions to learn, but if people can't make mistakes as often, there's less overall incivility and more supportive overall atmosphere.
>
>
> BobBut, after long blocks and sometimes even several of them for the same person, the depth of any uncivil impulses that could exist upon return could be exponential. Therefore, not going as far toward prevention as you think. A *little* of it more often til the lesson is learned or the impulse subsides; vs. possibly a lot of it in higher concentrations indefinitely. And add in, the general board discord that often results over long blocks in themselves.
I think Klavot's proposal is stellar!
Posted by NikkiT2 on July 5, 2007, at 14:11:51
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Klavot on July 5, 2007, at 3:11:14
>My concern was simply that the calculator that comes bundled with MS Windows does not seem to have a function for retrieving e. This means some posters would have no way of calculating block lengths or verifying the arithmetic behind block lengths, which might cause complaints.
In theory, one could set up a google spread sheet that could be shared with everyone.. Or a simple form could be used where people can enter the variables, and it calculates block length
Nikki
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2007, at 13:09:56
In reply to Re: Look here look here! :-), posted by confuzyq on July 5, 2007, at 11:56:59
> what about the original formula that I posted lower down in another thread:
>
> B = S(D*exp(-P/r) + 1).
>
> This formula allows for doubling or tripling as you see fit, while also being applicable to both repeat incivilities as well as first incivility. For a first incivility, we get
>
> B = S(0*exp(-0/r) + 1) = S.
>
> For the other formula, we get
>
> B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r) = 1 + (S*0 - 1)*exp(-0/r) = 0,
>
> which means you would have to split the formula into cases for a first offense versus repeat offense.
>
> KlavotI agree, it would be nice not to have to split the formula, but currently, anyway, B = 1 for a first incivility no matter how severe...
--
> Note: This does not mean I am projecting any parent-child power issues on my own part onto the administration here.
:-)
> after long blocks and sometimes even several of them for the same person, the depth of any uncivil impulses that could exist upon return could be exponential. Therefore, not going as far toward prevention as you think.
>
> confuzyqThat's another good point, some people might become more fearful, and others may become more angry...
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on July 6, 2007, at 19:36:46
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2007, at 13:09:56
"That's another good point, some people might become more fearful, and others may become more angry..."
Bob
and others could become more confused about this being a support website......some could be hurt more by it.....others may leave...fayeroe
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 6, 2007, at 21:05:54
In reply to Re: blocks » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on July 6, 2007, at 19:36:46
> "That's another good point, some people might become more fearful, and others may become more angry..."
>
> Bob
>
>
> and others could become more confused about this being a support website......some could be hurt more by it.....others may leave...
>
> fayeroe
>
fayeroe,
You wrote,[...a support website...].
I am insure as to what you are wanting to mean by a {support website}.
Could you elaborate as to:
A. Can you give an example of a website being a support website verses an example of a website not being a support website, that is not already been posted here?
B. In your opinion, is there a difference between a website that is supportive verses a website that reinforces?
C. In your opinion, is it supportive to reinforce a false idea that is presented by a poster?
D. (redacted by respondent)
E. Can you explain what is meant by,[...good for the community as a whole...] in referrence to being supportive?
F. In your opinion, what are the major characteristics of a supportive website and what are the major characteristics of a non-supportive web site?
G. If in your opinion a website is not supportive, what could be the results to the members, if any, other than that they could leave the site?
H. other related aspects to this discussion
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on July 6, 2007, at 21:30:36
In reply to Lou's response to fayeroe's post-supsit » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on July 6, 2007, at 21:05:54
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2007, at 10:40:29
In reply to Re: blocks » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on July 6, 2007, at 19:36:46
> It is the smallest r that guarantees that after 6 months, previous incivility will still factor. So even if the previous block was only one week, and that expired 6 months ago, then
>
> B = S + D*[3^(-P/39)] = S + 1*[3^(-24/39)] = S + 0.51 -> S + 1 week.
>
> KlavotBefore we make the decision to switch, I just want to remind people of the above. With the revised formula, too:
B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r) = 1 + (2 * 1 - 1) * exp(-24/35) = 1.5 -> 2 weeks
while currently:
B = S * (D - P/r) = 2 * (1 - 24/10) < 0 -> 1 week
--
> and others could become more confused about this being a support website......some could be hurt more by it.....others may leave...
>
> fayeroeThat's true, some could be hurt more, and others may leave, but the goal here isn't to receive support from me or the deputies...
Bob
Posted by Klavot on July 7, 2007, at 12:55:08
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2007, at 10:40:29
> Before we make the decision to switch, I just want to remind people of the above. With the revised formula, too:
>
> B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r) = 1 + (2 * 1 - 1) * exp(-24/35) = 1.5 -> 2 weeks
>
> while currently:
>
> B = S * (D - P/r) = 2 * (1 - 24/10) < 0 -> 1 weekAgain, I don't agree with the principle of multiplying S and D. In fact, the formula
B = 1 + (SD-1)*exp(-P/35)
might even be more severe than the currently used system. Zenhussy's block is an extreme case having large P and D; it should not be used as a representative example. Moreover, the values for r (r = 35 or r = 39 depending on which type of exponential function is used) were suggested by me based on the formula
B = S + D*exp(-P/r).
If you're going to use a different formula, then the values for r should be recalculated.
But it's your website, so do what you want / must. Just remember, this might be cyberspace, but there are real people involved who's lives are being messed around with.
Klavot
Posted by Honore on July 7, 2007, at 13:02:29
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2007, at 10:40:29
I believe fayeroe was not implying that it was the "point" of the site to receive support from you and the deputies.
But rather, that it was presumably part of the assumption that one would *also* receive support from you and the deputies. If not that, it would certainly be part of site not to receive the opposite of support from you and the deputies--or for you and the deputies not to undermine or break down the support that participants receive from one another here.
Honore
Posted by muffled on July 7, 2007, at 13:11:14
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Klavot on July 7, 2007, at 12:55:08
>But it's your website, so do what you want / must. Just remember, this might be cyberspace, but there are real people involved who's lives are being messed around with.
Klavot
**WELL said, Klavot, and thanks for your work on this.
And I can see your getting a little fried bout this.
Dealing w/admin is VERY challenging...:-(
I am glad you said what you did, cuz mebbe Bob will hear it better cuz he knows your pretty smart and all.
You are exactly right.
Thanks klavot,
(((()))) hugs if you want them.
M
Posted by muffled on July 7, 2007, at 13:17:28
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2007, at 10:40:29
> and others could become more confused about this being a support website......some could be hurt more by it.....others may leave...
>
> fayeroeThat's true, some could be hurt more, and others may leave, but the goal here isn't to receive support from me or the deputies...
Bob
**Did she even SAY that Bob?
And Honore said it well.
We babblers(incl the deps) DO support one another. We do not receive support from you, I DO NOT want support from you. I do not think...well...not civil...
So, what I would like to see is for BOB to support his depities, thats all.
So like Honore said, DON'T allow your(Bob) propensity for overzealous(IMHO) blocking to UNDERMINE the work WE(Babblers/deps) do the make babble a supportive place.
DO you ACTUALLY listen to what your deps have to say?
I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO frustrated, yet again by you Bob.
:-(
Not happy.
M
Posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2007, at 13:19:45
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Klavot on July 7, 2007, at 12:55:08
> > Before we make the decision to switch, I just want to remind people of the above. With the revised formula, too:
> >
> > B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r) = 1 + (2 * 1 - 1) * exp(-24/35) = 1.5 -> 2 weeks
> >
> > while currently:
> >
> > B = S * (D - P/r) = 2 * (1 - 24/10) < 0 -> 1 week
>
> Again, I don't agree with the principle of multiplying S and D. In fact, the formula
>
> B = 1 + (SD-1)*exp(-P/35)
>
> might even be more severe than the currently used system. Zenhussy's block is an extreme case having large P and D; it should not be used as a representative example. Moreover, the values for r (r = 35 or r = 39 depending on which type of exponential function is used) were suggested by me based on the formula
>
> B = S + D*exp(-P/r).
>
> If you're going to use a different formula, then the values for r should be recalculated.
>
> But it's your website, so do what you want / must. Just remember, this might be cyberspace, but there are real people involved who's lives are being messed around with.
>
> Klavotand the reality of it all is that probably 85% of us don't have a clue about the formulas. of course, it messes with us. we never know how the h"B = S + D*exp(-P/r)"l the block time is arrived at........fayeroe
Posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2007, at 13:22:39
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Honore on July 7, 2007, at 13:02:29
Posted by zeugma on July 7, 2007, at 17:27:37
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2007, at 10:40:29
> That's true, some could be hurt more, and others may leave, but the goal here isn't to receive support from me or the deputies...
>
> Bob>>I try to keep the atmosphere supportive, but unfortunately it isn't always.- Dr. Bob, FAQ, Policies.>>
I don't understand why you "try to keep the atmosphere supportive," if "the goal here isn't to receive support" from the rules which you have gone to such trouble to refine, and which you, yourself, enforce?
You invoke "sensitivity to the feelings of others" as the rationale for your actions, and then say your goal is not to provide support!
-z
Posted by Phil on July 7, 2007, at 19:17:06
In reply to empty variables » Dr. Bob, posted by zeugma on July 7, 2007, at 17:27:37
Listen to my favorite performer. Sometimes I've got to talk through music cause I get really pissed otherwise.
Break it down, Sly.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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