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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 185. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2007, at 15:05:38
In reply to Gosh GG, posted by muffled on June 13, 2007, at 15:48:48
Hi Muffled,
I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner, but I wasn't quite sure what to say. There's a lot in your post to think about. I'm still thinking about it all and about what the best thing for me is.
> I am terribly sorry if this seems hurtful, cuz its absolutely not meant to be.
I wasn't hurt or upset. I know you wrote this from a caring place. It sounds like you wrote from your heart, and I think your heart is pretty darned special. :)
Thank you for caring so much, muffled. Don't forget to care for yourself, too.
(((muffled)))
gg
Posted by muffled on June 20, 2007, at 20:42:50
In reply to Re: Gosh GG » muffled, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2007, at 15:05:38
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2007, at 21:27:52
In reply to Gosh GG, posted by muffled on June 13, 2007, at 15:48:48
> I think there seems to be some perception of priveledge or something of deputies? I've noticed a time or two.
And with the perception of privilege there may be feelings of envy?
Bob
Posted by muffled on June 21, 2007, at 22:26:25
In reply to Re: perception of privilege, posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2007, at 21:27:52
> > I think there seems to be some perception of priveledge or something of deputies? I've noticed a time or two.
>
> And with the perception of privilege there may be feelings of envy?
>
> Bob**ROFL !! Bob you ask some odd questions, but i'm getting used to them. Nothing bad seems to have happened as a result of them. I hope.
Also I have no idea whether or not this statement I said is even true, its pure speculation on my part.(hence the '*I* THINK, and the question mark at the end).
For me there is no envy. I just wish deputies the best and admire that they do this job. Cuz to me there's more loss than gain as far as I can see.
I think maybe for some there is the perception *perhaps* of having more power?
Sort of like how people perceive cops. There's a variety of opinions. Some think cops are SO wonderful. Some hate them, justified or not(cuz cops got the power). Some just see them as people doing a hard job. And they just like anybody else. They got their strengths and their weaknessess. I could go on and on...
Thats my thots.
M
Posted by muffled on June 21, 2007, at 23:59:27
In reply to Re: perception of privilege, posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2007, at 21:27:52
NOW I see where you going w/this.....
convoluted twistings of the human mind....ROFL, I SOOOOO dense!
HA!
2 points to Bobbo.
Posted by confuzyq on June 22, 2007, at 22:20:39
In reply to Re: perception of privilege, posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2007, at 21:27:52
> > I think there seems to be some perception of priveledge or something of deputies? I've noticed a time or two.
>
> And with the perception of privilege there may be feelings of envy?
>
> BobThere are a lot of people out there and a lot of them here in particular, so I bet that sometimes is the case. But for it to be your main or only hypothesis here... I don't think that's the most logical one, and something feels like it is being convoluted. People wanting rules to be applied equally is only wanting things to be fair, logical and consistent. There is likely nothing more to it than that most of the time. And it doesn't in itself hint at some issue on their own part like "envy."
I know the very subject here is "perception," but to me this sounds like the kind of perception-framing you always advise *against* doing (making "it" about someone else rather than about oneself or the actual subject).
Posted by confuzyq on June 22, 2007, at 22:26:31
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on June 21, 2007, at 22:26:25
> > > I think there seems to be some perception of priveledge or something of deputies? I've noticed a time or two.
> >
> > And with the perception of privilege there may be feelings of envy?
> >
> > Bob
>
> **ROFL !! Bob you ask some odd questions, but i'm getting used to them. Nothing bad seems to have happened as a result of them. I hope.Actually much hurt and frustration has been felt regarding the frequent answering of questions with questions.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2007, at 0:40:38
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Dr. Bob, posted by confuzyq on June 22, 2007, at 22:20:39
> There are a lot of people out there and a lot of them here in particular, so I bet that sometimes is the case. But for it to be your main or only hypothesis here... I don't think that's the most logical one, and something feels like it is being convoluted. People wanting rules to be applied equally is only wanting things to be fair, logical and consistent. There is likely nothing more to it than that most of the time. And it doesn't in itself hint at some issue on their own part like "envy."
Sorry, I just thought it might be one feeling people were having, I didn't mean to imply that it was the only one.
And I wouldn't necessarily consider it to be an "issue" for individual posters, I think it's a normal feeling to be expected in situations like this:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060111/msgs/606866.html
And fairness could be part of it. Posters might envy those they see as receiving preferential treatment...
Bob
Posted by confuzyq on June 23, 2007, at 1:07:12
In reply to Re: perception of privilege, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2007, at 0:40:38
Thanks, but you still seem to be honing in on "envy," and I personally just don't think that's the most logical or fair way to frame it. It's the same as if in the penal system, one person is given 5 years and another probation for the same offense. Or if one apartment resident is allowed to (e.g.) blast their music late at night or take up two parking spots, and others aren't. Sure the ones getting the shorter end of the stick would rather not. But mostly it is just about fairness and consistency, and I just don't see the justification in implying otherwise in such cut-and-dried scenarios.
Sometimes I wonder if the hypotheses you put forth are more about a particular angle you'd like to examine at the moment, such as times when you've directed conversations towards possible feelings of powerlessness, when whatever the beef being expressed did not seem very likely to be related to that. In those cases I'd be more comfortable if you'd just come out and say that X is an angle you would simply like to hear discussed.
> > There are a lot of people out there and a lot of them here in particular, so I bet that sometimes is the case. But for it to be your main or only hypothesis here... I don't think that's the most logical one, and something feels like it is being convoluted. People wanting rules to be applied equally is only wanting things to be fair, logical and consistent. There is likely nothing more to it than that most of the time. And it doesn't in itself hint at some issue on their own part like "envy."
>
> Sorry, I just thought it might be one feeling people were having, I didn't mean to imply that it was the only one.
>
> And I wouldn't necessarily consider it to be an "issue" for individual posters, I think it's a normal feeling to be expected in situations like this:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060111/msgs/606866.html
>
> And fairness could be part of it. Posters might envy those they see as receiving preferential treatment...
>
> Bob
Posted by fayeroe on June 23, 2007, at 14:58:47
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Dr. Bob, posted by confuzyq on June 23, 2007, at 1:07:12
"And fairness could be part of it. Posters might envy those they see as receiving preferential treatment..."
this is a interesting statement( hung up on envy, again) but let me reframe it......
"and fairness could be a part of it. some posters might be angry, frustrated or hurt because they see some receiving preferential treatment....."
and for god's sake, please don't tell me what i really meant.....i meant what i said.
Posted by Happyflower on June 23, 2007, at 15:23:21
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » confuzyq, posted by fayeroe on June 23, 2007, at 14:58:47
Well I think it is more about the privilege of being a deuties friend.
They are only human, but the potential for unfairness is greater if our deputies are indivdual posters. A deputy's friend might say something on the line of civilness and their friend might not enforce the rules or "appear to turn the other cheek", the same as if it is someone who the deputy does not care for.
Not everyone receives the benefit of doubt when the post is "on the line" of civilness. Plus when other babblers report it or complain about certain posts we are likely to get told that 1) we didn't read the post, 2)nobody reported the post, so use the reply button, 3) I don't understand what was being said because it was in creative writing section, 4) they really didn't mean how it was preceived, 5) complete avoidence of the issue.Now if it was by someone who isn't well liked by the deputy, the posts will be gone over more carefully, almost like they are looking for something, to give out warnings or blocks. Plus sometimes deputies can "egg one on", knowing what they are saying is frusterating the poster, to get them to "be uncivil", and then get blocked.
Posted by Racer on June 23, 2007, at 18:51:57
In reply to Re: perception of privilege, posted by Happyflower on June 23, 2007, at 15:23:21
> Well I think it is more about the privilege of being a deuties friend.
> They are only human, but the potential for unfairness is greater if our deputies are indivdual posters. A deputy's friend might say something on the line of civilness and their friend might not enforce the rules or "appear to turn the other cheek", the same as if it is someone who the deputy does not care for.
>Actually, that hasn't been my experience.
First of all, my very first official PBC was given to someone I consider a treasured friend. I actually prefer to be the one to give a PBC to a friend, because then I know that it's being done fairly.
On the other hand, when it comes to posters I don't care for, I'm much more likely to examine more closely any possible reason NOT to PBC or block. I'm often afraid that my general antipathy for a poster might be leading me to see something that's OK as being uncivil, so I look much more carefully and am more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to that poster, so that I'm sure it's not my own bias.
I realize that a lot of posters believe that the enforcement of policies on this site is unfair. Yes, deputies -- and even Dr Bob -- are human, and we make mistakes. But I can promise you that we do our very best to be fair in our enforcement of the site guidelines. It can be a rough job, because there is such potential for bad feelings all around. My own solution, which is partially effective, is to remind myself that I do my best to be fair, and that's the best I can do. The rest is pretty much a matter of perspective.
That's just one deputy, talking about the experience of that one deputy. I hope that it is reassuring to someone here at the site, that we don't run willy-nilly around, giving out PBCs and blocks.
Peace
Posted by Happyflower on June 23, 2007, at 19:03:42
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Happyflower, posted by Racer on June 23, 2007, at 18:51:57
Racer,
I have not noticed you doing any of the things I mentioned, but it would uncivil to name names or give specific examples, so what I said was vague across the board. I am sorry that you were included in part of that vagueness.
Actually I think you have been doing a very good job in my view.
Posted by zenhussy on June 23, 2007, at 20:58:12
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Happyflower, posted by Racer on June 23, 2007, at 18:51:57
>>>That's just one deputy, talking about the experience of that one deputy.<<<
if you are deputy talking about experiences of deputy then why not sign in with new 'Deputy Racer'? thought the reason for new "Deputy" names for deputies was supposed to signify when this site's deputies are posting as deps. and not as 'normal' posters.
already confused!
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 1:08:45
In reply to Re: perception of privilege, posted by Happyflower on June 23, 2007, at 15:23:21
> Well I think it is more about the privilege of being a ...
not even going to go there
> Plus when other babblers report it or complain about certain posts we are likely to get told that 1) we didn't read the post, 2)nobody reported the post, so use the reply button, 3) I don't understand what was being said because it was in creative writing section, 4) they really didn't mean how it was perceived, 5) complete avoidance of the issue.
...all of which can be appropriate options/responses for deputies.
> ... Plus sometimes deputies can "egg one on", knowing what they are saying is frusterating the poster, to get them to "be uncivil", and then get blocked.
Interesting theory. And yet no matter how frustrated someone might feel, that individual is still responsible for their own actions. I don't believe that one can legitimately deflect the responsibility for their own choice of actions onto another.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 1:16:44
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Racer, posted by Happyflower on June 23, 2007, at 19:03:42
>but it would uncivil to name names or give specific examples, so what I said was vague across the board.
Golly, some folks might respond with demands to know who you're talking about. I think I'll pass on that, though. I'm concerned that others might perceive a post like that from me as being rude.
gg
Posted by Happyflower on June 24, 2007, at 6:08:51
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 1:16:44
> >but it would uncivil to name names or give specific examples, so what I said was vague across the board.
>
> Golly, some folks might respond with demands to know who you're talking about. I think I'll pass on that, though. I'm concerned that others might perceive a post like that from me as being rude.
>Golly, I am just explaining to Racer on why she was included in my statements, even though it didn't apply to her, my statements being limited by the civilness rules of the site.
Dr. Bob said we are allowed to post about our experiences, and that includes the experiences with deputies. He did open the converstation up about this, seemly wanting to know babblers viewpoints about the perception of privlilege of deputies.
Besides, like I have been told by you several times,isn't there a notification button to notify about posts that you have a problem with. Doesn't the rules apply to everyone? Or are some able to post about it on the boards while others aren't allowed? Just wanting to verify, because this pretains to the topic of this thread afterall.
Posted by Happyflower on June 24, 2007, at 6:33:39
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 1:08:45
> > ... Plus sometimes deputies can "egg one on", knowing what they are saying is frusterating the poster, to get them to "be uncivil", and then get blocked.
>
> Interesting theory. And yet no matter how frustrated someone might feel, that individual is still responsible for their own actions. I don't believe that one can legitimately deflect the responsibility for their own choice of actions onto another.Well sure, posters are responsible for their own actions, I never said they weren't, but it doesn't mean that this behavior doesn't happen. Plus remember a deputy is in a position of power, so the playing field is not equal. That power influences the reg. babbler and the deputy themselves, and effects how conversations flow on the boards. It works both ways and not always positive.
A real world example of this would be on how many individuals were forced (by the powers above them) to admit to a crime they didn't commit. Would you say that the power of one over another didn't have influence to force the innocent to plead guilty for a crime they didn't commit. Power always has the upperhand in life, and I am sure it isn't different on Babble either.
So can a babbler be "egged on", yes, but even though the babbler is responsible for their own actions, doesn't mean the effect of power of a deputy doesn't come into play here. That is why duel relationships are not encouraged between patients and clients in many professions. This is why I believe we need deputies that are not personal posters at the same time. I am not putting deputies down, I am just trying to show how the position of power or privilege effects other babblers on the board, from a perspective of another babbler.
I truely believe that when a deputy takes off their badge of duty on the boards, that badge whether worn or not, still has effects on other babblers perceptions and actions with them. It is still babblers responsiblity to act withing the guidelines, but remember we are not on the same level playing field.
Posted by fayeroe on June 24, 2007, at 10:18:08
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » gardenergirl, posted by Happyflower on June 24, 2007, at 6:33:39
"So can a babbler be "egged on", yes, but even though the babbler is responsible for their own actions, doesn't mean the effect of power of a deputy doesn't come into play here. That is why duel relationships are not encouraged between patients and clients in many professions. This is why I believe we need deputies that are not personal posters at the same time. I am not putting deputies down, I am just trying to show how the position of power or privilege effects other babblers on the board, from a perspective of another babbler."
HF, remember the experience where the professor set up certain class memebers with authority and others with none? it went south really quickly.
i'd ignore the carrot today, if i were you......xoxoxo
Posted by Happyflower on June 24, 2007, at 12:11:47
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Happyflower, posted by fayeroe on June 24, 2007, at 10:18:08
LOL, thanks for the carrot warning! I am able to resit the carrot, I don't even plant them in my garden, I prefer tomatoes at least my bunny rabbits leave them alone. :-) LOL
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 13:09:34
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » gardenergirl, posted by Happyflower on June 24, 2007, at 6:08:51
I see that you're asking me these questions, or at least it appears so based on your reply. I've answered them to the best of my knowledge. However, you might wish to ask them of Dr. Bob or one of the active deputies for an "official response" if you feel you need one.
> Besides, like I have been told by you several times, isn't there a notification button to notify about posts that you have a problem with?
Um, still yes.
> Don't the rules apply to everyone?
Um, still yes.
> Or are some able to post about it on the boards while others aren't allowed?
Not that I'm aware. You might find more about this at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070605/msgs/764332.html
> Just wanting to verify, because this pertains to the topic of this thread after all.
okay
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 13:14:26
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » gardenergirl, posted by Happyflower on June 24, 2007, at 6:33:39
> That is why duel relationships are not encouraged between patients and clients in many professions.
I heartily agree. "Duel relationships" between patients and clients, and also between professionals and their clients are a really really bad idea. Bad for business, too.
> I truly believe that when a deputy takes off their badge of duty on the boards, that badge whether worn or not, still has effects on other babblers perceptions and actions with them.
That is helpful information, thank you.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 13:19:35
In reply to Re: perception of privilege » Happyflower, posted by fayeroe on June 24, 2007, at 10:18:08
> HF, remember the experience where the professor set up certain class members with authority and others with none? it went south really quickly.
F,
You're not comparing the student "guards" in the Stanford Prison Experiment by Zimbardo with members of the admin team here, are you?gg
Posted by fayeroe on June 24, 2007, at 14:02:29
In reply to Stanford Prison Experiment? » fayeroe, posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 13:19:35
> > HF, remember the experience where the professor set up certain class members with authority and others with none? it went south really quickly.
>
> F,
> You're not comparing the student "guards" in the Stanford Prison Experiment by Zimbardo with members of the admin team here, are you?
>
> ggdo you perceive it that way?
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2007, at 14:06:41
In reply to Re: Stanford Prison Experiment?, posted by fayeroe on June 24, 2007, at 14:02:29
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