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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by notfred on October 6, 2006, at 8:09:06
In reply to Re: please be sensitive » alexandra_k, posted by Racer on October 6, 2006, at 2:23:05
> I'd like to point out, though, that NotFred -- whose name always intrigues me, because my mother used to call me Fred sometimes ;-) -- was not saying that anyone here was a sociopath, had ASPD, or even that the definitions were correct. He posted the definitions.
DSM defs, at that ! I hope is does not mean the DSM is now uncivil to post.
>
> In his earlier post on the subject, I believe he was expressing his own hurt at his own perception of possibly receiving an intimation that the definition applied to him. I don't think he was intimating that it applied to anyone else.
>
Thanks Racer; you are 100% right about my intentions. I do not think anyone here is a
sociopath and am sorry anyone felt I was calling anyone on this board a sociopath.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 9:31:50
In reply to Thanks, Racer, posted by notfred on October 6, 2006, at 8:09:06
Yeah, point taken Racer and NotFred.
I know NotFred wasn't meaning to call anyone here a sociopath.
But the DSM defines sociopath as antisocial personality disorder and I've met at least one person on these boards who has said that they have been dx'd with antisocial personality disorder. I guess I was concerned about the stereotype of sociopathy (aka antisocial personality) in the same way I'd be concerned about the stereotype of borderline personality if someone were to say that someones behaviour was borderline then cite some reference that characterised borderline personality as a disorder characterised by manipulating others.I'm sorry NotFred if you thought Deneb was implying all people who didn't feel hurt had antisocial personality. I hope her clarification cleared things up.
> sorry anyone felt I was calling anyone on this board a sociopath.
People on these boards have been diagnosed with sociopathy (aka antisocial personality disorder). I was concerned about your characterisation of people who meet dx criteria for the disorder.
The bit I quoted...
Was that you or the DSM?
Yes. The DSM is judgemental in places. Hell, if the bible can be uncivil then why not the DSM?
Posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 10:14:10
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 9:31:50
> But the DSM defines sociopath as antisocial personality disorderIs that the same thing as what was once called a psychopath?
- Scott
Posted by notfred on October 6, 2006, at 12:25:02
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 9:31:50
>
> I'm sorry NotFred if you thought Deneb was implying all people who didn't feel hurt had antisocial personality. I hope her clarification cleared things up.
Unless I am missing something, I only saw a clarification for pepple with antisocial personality, with no exclusion for me. Could you point this out to me, I am really hoping I massed it.>
> Was that you or the DSM?
DSM and other auth. sources, per the link at the bottom of the page.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:09:41
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer, posted by notfred on October 6, 2006, at 12:25:02
> Unless I am missing something, I only saw a clarification for pepple with antisocial personality, with no exclusion for me. Could you point this out to me, I am really hoping I massed it.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060918/msgs/692299.html
>>I was not saying that people who are not hurt by blocks are sociopaths.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:10:40
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 10:14:10
> Is that the same thing as what was once called a psychopath?Yes. Though beware of hollywood stereotypes.
Posted by Racer on October 6, 2006, at 17:34:16
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:10:40
Posted by notfred on October 6, 2006, at 18:06:14
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer » notfred, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:09:41
Yea !!!!!!!!!! I totally missed that. Sorry about that.
Posted by Phillipa on October 6, 2006, at 22:02:25
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 10:14:10
Yup think so but getting out of here it feels so unsafe. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 6, 2006, at 22:05:20
In reply to Re: Thanks, Racer » SLS, posted by Phillipa on October 6, 2006, at 22:02:25
Didn't see the change in subject. Sorry Racer.Love Phillipa ps see I need to get off this board fast!!!!!
Posted by capricorn on October 16, 2006, at 23:13:00
In reply to Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths, posted by notfred on October 6, 2006, at 0:51:35
> > Some people might not feel hurt by a block because:
> >
> > - They were ready for a Babble break
> > - They wanted to be blocked (to do more IRL). I guess this is related to the first point.
> > - They think they deserved the block.
> > - They knew they were going to be blocked for what they said, but they posted it anyway.
> >
>
>
> Some people are mostly providers of information and support. They may have developed support systems and friendships IRL. They do not stand to loose much if blocked, one could say Babble is the one that looses if they are blocked. (Cam, Lar)
> Support comes in many forms & does not mean always agreeing, de facto, with what others say. The wise man does not surround himself only with people who agree with him all them time.
>
> Some may feel strongly that some truths must be said and accept the consequences of their actions.
> We do not call whisle blowers sociopaths. Nor is it fair to call anyone a sociopath because they do not have the same emotional reactions as others.
> It is ironic that this happens on a MI board. Where else is there a great variety of different
> feelings and emotional responses ?
>
> Sociopath is a very hurtful word and it seems ironic to see it used to describe others in the context of describing how you feel others actions have hurt you and the hurt you feel.
>
>I have an emotional dyregulation problem.I also tend to post a lot of useful information to a number of forums.Unfortunately from time to time i lose the plot big time. It's part of my symptom profile. It's funny how some symptoms are more acceptable than others even though none of us get to choose the symptoms we have.
You never get to see someone blocked or banned from a forum(not specifically Babble)for being depressed and yet depression is no more or less a valid symptom than emotional volatility.Much is rightly made about dicrimination and mental illness but it is beyond an reasonable intellectual debate that a form of apartheid occurs when it comes to the tolerance shown to some symptoms/behaviours of mental illness over others.
It is one reason i have an ambivalent view of all mental health forums. It's in my altruistic nature to try and help but i am very wary of mh forums because of the invariably negative response i receive when ironically i need the most support because i am struggling the most with the kind of things that make me mentally ill.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 16, 2006, at 23:27:14
In reply to Re: Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths, posted by capricorn on October 16, 2006, at 23:13:00
I think you bring up an important issue, though I'd probably separate emotion from behavior. But I think I understand what you are saying.
Is there any way you could somehow let us know when things are getting rough for you, and maybe let us know how we could help or otherwise support you?
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 16, 2006, at 23:34:44
In reply to Re: Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths, posted by capricorn on October 16, 2006, at 23:13:00
> You never get to see someone blocked or banned from a forum ... for being depressed and yet depression is no more or less a valid symptom than emotional volatility.
>
> i am very wary of mh forums because of the invariably negative response i receive when ironically i need the most support because i am struggling the most with the kind of things that make me mentally ill.That's an interesting perspective. I do think different kinds of support may be more or less helpful for different kinds of symptoms.
Bob
Posted by capricorn on October 17, 2006, at 10:06:08
In reply to Re: Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths » capricorn, posted by gardenergirl on October 16, 2006, at 23:27:14
> I think you bring up an important issue, though I'd probably separate emotion from behavior. But I think I understand what you are saying.
>
> Is there any way you could somehow let us know when things are getting rough for you, and maybe let us know how we could help or otherwise support you?
>
> gg
Have you ever comsidered the option of a 'resting room' forum where you can voluntarily put yourself if you are losing it or just don't feel up to the main forums or can be put in by site owner/mods. You can sound off there but don't have access to other areas.Other people can choose to 'visit' you in there but for the purpose of being supportive rather than tearing you off a strip or two.I think there needs to be a distinction between various faux pas ie there is a qualitative difference between expressing an honestly held view that falls foul of the 'I statement' ethos of these boards,going off on one because you are emotionally volatile/manic etc but you are not generally a bad person,and cold and calculated trolling.
Even when ok i tend to find the 'I statement' policy rather daunting and in my opinion feel that
there is a danger of alienating or 'demonising'(for want of a better word) otherwise
decent people by blocking them for the failure to
get to grips with it.
In effect people are admonished/punished for what is an 'error of presentation' rather than necessarily intended malice.Sometimes it is important to remember that the quality of the wine inside the decanter is more important than the quality of the decanter itself.
Indeed if too much time is spent worrying over the
decanter less wine will be enjoyed.
Posted by Phillipa on October 17, 2006, at 17:02:09
In reply to Re: Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths, posted by capricorn on October 17, 2006, at 10:06:08
Sort of like a time out room? Love Phillipa
Posted by capricorn on October 17, 2006, at 18:50:33
In reply to Re: Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths » capricorn, posted by Phillipa on October 17, 2006, at 17:02:09
> Sort of like a time out room? Love Phillipa
Yes. Not really appropriate for people just not good at adhering to the 'I statement' dogma
of this group or for trolls but a place where people
can be put or put themselves when they are not functioning well within the main boards.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2006, at 7:34:40
In reply to Re: Blocks, hurt, and sociopaths, posted by capricorn on October 17, 2006, at 10:06:08
> Have you ever comsidered the option of a 'resting room' forum where you can voluntarily put yourself if you are losing it or just don't feel up to the main forums or can be put in by site owner/mods. You can sound off there but don't have access to other areas.Other people can choose to 'visit' you in there but for the purpose of being supportive rather than tearing you off a strip or two.
That's an interesting idea. People could sound off, but would need to be supportive?
Bob
Posted by muffled on October 19, 2006, at 11:19:52
In reply to Re: resting room, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2006, at 7:34:40
> > Have you ever comsidered the option of a 'resting room' forum where you can voluntarily put yourself if you are losing it or just don't feel up to the main forums or can be put in by site owner/mods. You can sound off there but don't have access to other areas.Other people can choose to 'visit' you in there but for the purpose of being supportive rather than tearing you off a strip or two.
>
> That's an interesting idea. People could sound off, but would need to be supportive?
>
> Bob***So a resting room is to sound off, OR is it to rest?
I don't understand.
If we need to express kinda bad thots, we can goto the wrtiting board.
If we want to torture ourselves we can goto Admin ;0
If you want to have a 'discussion' you can goto politics.
You wanto just play, goto social....
And so on.
It would seem to me we have ENOUGH boards.
What we need is to maybe have a little more leniency about blocking on certain boards. (eg. politics, writing) There should be FAR more leniency given the nature of those boards. It could even be written clearly on top that these boards could possibly be more intense and therefore possibly triggering to some.
Mebbe more use of pbc's on those boards rather than blocks.
In that way those boards could be a place of genuine discussion and expression, and also of learning how to better communicate by way of notification by pbc's.
Then if those are not heeded, then perhaps short, but escalating blocks as necessary.
Mebbe a diff. blocking formula for those boards.
My thots.
Posted by Phillipa on October 19, 2006, at 19:43:10
In reply to Re: resting room » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on October 19, 2006, at 11:19:52
I really believe that the writing board should be a safe place to say what's on your mind without fear of a block. Almost like journaling your thoughts. Not a therapist wouldn't discourage a person from writing what if not gotten out could be something awful. Yes a trigger at the top of the page would definitely be a good idea. And no one forces you to read that or any board. It's you're choice and if you can't feel stable or able to handle someone who is pain and their only their thoughts then don't go there. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 15:51:18
In reply to Re: resting room » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on October 19, 2006, at 11:19:52
> So a resting room is to sound off, OR is it to rest?
> I don't understand.It's not clear to me, either, it was capricorn's idea...
> What we need is to maybe have a little more leniency about blocking on certain boards.
> In that way those boards could be a place of genuine discussion and expressionThe thing is, genuine expression may be uncivil and may not foster genuine discussion at all.
IMO, if people on are more sensitive about certain issues, then being civil would seem to be more important and less leniency would seem to be called for.
Bob
Posted by muffled on October 23, 2006, at 0:28:46
In reply to Re: resting room, posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 15:51:18
> > What we need is to maybe have a little more leniency about blocking on certain boards.
> > In that way those boards could be a place of genuine discussion and expression
>
> The thing is, genuine expression may be uncivil and may not foster genuine discussion at all.**Ahhhh, but too much repression and worry about civility ALSO may not foster genuine discussion either...
>
> IMO, if people on are more sensitive about certain issues, then being civil would seem to be more important and less leniency would seem to be called for.***Hmmmmmm?????????
Can you rephrease that? I don't understand what your saying here?
Guessing......
My reply would be that we DO for the most part try and be civil here. People here tend to be quite understanding for the most part. I think some beneficial threads to me have been ones where there is dissention, and then its worked out. Kindly, sweetly, WONDERFULLY.
We are human. And humans by their very nature will hurt each other. Purposefully or not. Its just the way we are.
Hurt happens.
Hurt done INTENTIONALLY is not so nice.
Hmmmmmm.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2006, at 17:19:15
In reply to Re: resting room » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on October 23, 2006, at 0:28:46
> > The thing is, genuine expression may be uncivil and may not foster genuine discussion at all.
>
> Ahhhh, but too much repression and worry about civility ALSO may not foster genuine discussion either...I agree, the key is finding a balance.
> My reply would be that we DO for the most part try and be civil here. People here tend to be quite understanding for the most part. I think some beneficial threads to me have been ones where there is dissention, and then its worked out. Kindly, sweetly, WONDERFULLY.
> We are human. And humans by their very nature will hurt each other. Purposefully or not. Its just the way we are.
> Hurt happens.
> Hurt done INTENTIONALLY is not so nice.I agree, for the most part everyone's really supportive. I appreciate that -- and may not say so enough. The exceptions can become the focus of attention.
Intent is difficult. It's hard for me to know someone's intent. Intent may not be black-and-white. Intentional hurt may also be able to be worked out. And unintentional hurt still hurts.
Bob
Posted by muffled on October 23, 2006, at 20:26:12
In reply to Re: hurt, posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2006, at 17:19:15
> > Hurt happens.
> > Hurt done INTENTIONALLY is not so nice.
>
> I agree, for the most part everyone's really supportive. I appreciate that -- and may not say so enough. The exceptions can become the focus of attention.**Thank you.
Yes, exceptions.....there are even a multitude of exceptions to the exceptions....
>
> Intent is difficult. It's hard for me to know someone's intent. Intent may not be black-and-white. Intentional hurt may also be able to be worked out. And unintentional hurt still hurts.**I also agree that intent can be puzzling. I sometimes think the intent is to get oneself blocked on purpose!
But this is where you entirely keep losing me Bob...
'Intentional hurt may also be able to be worked out', but if a person is blocked, how is he/she supposed to be able to do that?
And yes, unitentional hurt still hurts. It CAN hurt just as much. But not usually. I think if the person is given the opportunity to see that they have caused hurt, and given the opportunity to apologize, then that is VERY supportive....
IF they are given the opportunity that is...Have you ever considered, that a block, which you KNOW for a fact will cause hurt (therefore its intentional.....), over something that may or may not cause hurt, and may or may not have been intentional, well, to me it just doesn't balance out.
To intentionally cause hurt, where there is a possibility it could justifiably been avoided. That there may have been a less painful solution to the prob....
Hurt could have been completely avoided....
And personal and interpersonal growth(and trust and camaraderie) could occur as a result....
What a fine result that would be!
But its like you don't trust us to even try to work it out :-(
The heavy (if somewhat misguided.... imo ;-} )hand of Bob comes down to stop us before we even have a chance...Hmmmm, just some thots.
More pbc's, less blocks....
Fosters growth IMO.
Honest communication, with NO intent to cause harm or discomfort. Just trying to get you to think. And understand what I am inadequately trying to communicate... And trying to lighten up w/humour.
Thats all.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2006, at 0:24:04
In reply to Re: hurt » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on October 23, 2006, at 20:26:12
> I also agree that intent can be puzzling. I sometimes think the intent is to get oneself blocked on purpose!
Sometimes it may be...
> 'Intentional hurt may also be able to be worked out', but if a person is blocked, how is he/she supposed to be able to do that?
I guess it depends what kind of working out it would be, and with whom. It may need to wait until afterwards, but contact with me and even other posters is possible while blocked, too.
> its like you don't trust us to even try to work it out :-(
> The heavy ... hand of Bob comes down to stop us before we even have a chance...Sometimes a heavy hand is necessary. And I'm not here all the time, so everyone always has at least until I'm back...
> More pbc's, less blocks....
> Fosters growth IMO.
> Honest communication, with NO intent to cause harm or discomfort.Intent is difficult...
Bob
Posted by muffled on October 24, 2006, at 1:43:29
In reply to Re: hurt, posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2006, at 0:24:04
> > 'Intentional hurt may also be able to be worked out', but if a person is blocked, how is he/she supposed to be able to do that?
>
> I guess it depends what kind of working out it would be, and with whom. It may need to wait until afterwards, but contact with me and even other posters is possible while blocked, too.***I think good old talking it out is what i envisioned...
I have contacted you while blocked in the past, to no avail :-(
Now that I have been here awhile, I DO have posters I can contact. But that took time. I didn't have that initially.
>
> > its like you don't trust us to even try to work it out :-(
> > The heavy ... hand of Bob comes down to stop us before we even have a chance...
>
> Sometimes a heavy hand is necessary. And I'm not here all the time, so everyone always has at least until I'm back...***Yes, sometimes a heavy hand is necessary, but to babblers credit, not very often :-)
But who knows when Bob comes, and when he goes....not much to go on there.....
And I do admit(ugh, hate to admit this..)that when you are gone from the site for extended periods of time....well...all hell sometimes breaks loose...>
> > More pbc's, less blocks....
> > Fosters growth IMO.
> > Honest communication, with NO intent to cause harm or discomfort.
>
> Intent is difficult...***Yes it is. But I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt in my world. Its so rewarding when people rise magnificently to the occasion.
It is complicated.
People just baffle me so often.
Oh well.
Take care,
Muffled
This is the end of the thread.
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