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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by zazenduck on May 11, 2006, at 17:56:48
In reply to He's done it!!!! (nm) » verne, posted by Declan on May 11, 2006, at 15:24:50
I hope your block is everything you want it to be :)
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:05:30
In reply to Re: CORRECT LINKS » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 11, 2006, at 11:11:00
it was a quote from wittgenstein.
> You know, people do manage to spur their own selves to thinking on occasion.
of course.
i didn't mean that people weren't thinking.
i meant that i was providing some material to think about.urgency.
sometimes i feel a sense of urgency.
sometimes it feels like things get talked around and talked around...
mostly so things will be forgotten about and put away.
i didn't want that to happen.
i'm sorry
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:24:30
In reply to verne's block » Estella, posted by gardenergirl on May 11, 2006, at 13:31:04
> It appeared to me that another section of the post was not about/directed to just you, per se. Thus, if one is considering whether a person could feel accused or put down by verne's post, there are more "people in Bob's head" as you've put it ;) than just the person the post replied to, in this case you.
Right. I suppose that people *might* feel offended.
What was Verne saying?
My understanding... The thing that really sticks out for me...
Is that he feels like an outsider here.
He doesn't really feel like part of things.
He interprets the support
As being negatively directed
Against the person who is disagreeing with the person who is offering support.
And so he thinks the support is phoneyAnd yet...
He must want to fit in to a certain degree 'cause he is / was still here...
Maybe Verne isn't so clear on how much he is seeing the boards the way they "really" are vs how much he is projecting out on to the boards.He gets blocked because he didn't get that distinction hence he thought the boards were a certain way hence he says things out of anger...
And people could help him...
Or maybe they don't get the distinction either
Hence they might well feel all offended
And try and get Verne blocked.:-(
(This isn't meant to be unsupportive of gg I'm just trying to say something about why I think a block harms more than helps in this kind of situation. Couldn't deputies (and other posters) step in and try and help so that others are less likely to feel offended? So that a hurting person doesn't have to be blocked? And how long is he going to get for that anyway? What if I said that other posters being blocked... Is something that offends and hurts me?)
And when Verne comes back (if he comes back) then what has he learned?
He has learned that he has to shut the hell up if he wants to not get blocked. And hence IMHO he is even more likely to lash out and rebel.
Because sometimes people prefer pre emptive strike to hanging ones head to ones likely fate
And again... How is this helping?
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 3:48:32
In reply to Re: verne's block » gardenergirl, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:24:30
>Couldn't deputies (and other posters) step in and try and help so that others are less likely to feel offended?
but, we're not therapists, or pdocs or psychologists here ( as a rule). We're not trained in conflict resolution.
Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..
Personally, I would rather feel safe here with things the way they are.. Safe from knowing I cannot be attacked.
have you ever had a "cyber stalker"? Someone who discovers websites you post on, follows you there and continually posts personal information about you and incredibly upsetting abusive messages? I have, for many many years... But here I always knew was safe, as if he ever found me here (which luckily he didn't, as I used my RT name, not my commonly known virtual-name) I knew I would be protected by the rules and blocks.
I guess the problems is.. there are a chunk of us who like it here as it is, yet there is another chunk who want PB to be *their* way.. This has happened regularly over the years I have been here (and seen it just about all other sites I use that "have rules").
I'm tired of PB these days.. I find the arguing of so many small points to be very very tiring. And you know what, its making me forget the good points and the goo people.. Which is very sad
Nikki
Posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 5:13:51
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 3:48:32
Posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 3:48:32
> but, we're not therapists, or pdocs or psychologists here ( as a rule). We're not trained in conflict resolution.
that is right we are not.
but does that mean that people should be blocked because they can't tell the difference between other peoples sh*t and their sh*t? isn't that a worthwile skill to learn? shouldn't deputies be able to do this? bob seems to be able to not take stuff personally (which enables him to interveane without lashing out) if deputies don't understand that / aren't guided by that...
> Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..yeah. whatever that means... sometimes people don't understand the difference... don't understand that their interpretation may not reflect reality... so you think they should be blocked and that is just too bad????
> Personally, I would rather feel safe here with things the way they are.. Safe from knowing I cannot be attacked.and safe knowing you won't be blocked.
you haven't been blocked - have you?but then you are interested in the politics board...
and yet you don't post there - do you?
> have you ever had a "cyber stalker"? Someone who discovers websites you post on, follows you there and continually posts personal information about you and incredibly upsetting abusive messages? I have, for many many years... But here I always knew was safe, as if he ever found me here (which luckily he didn't, as I used my RT name, not my commonly known virtual-name) I knew I would be protected by the rules and blocks.
and so the issue isn't around the current blocking system vs. us being left to fend for ourselves... there are good usages of the current blocking system... sure...
> I guess the problems is.. there are a chunk of us who like it here as it is, yet there is another chunk who want PB to be *their* way.. This has happened regularly over the years I have been here (and seen it just about all other sites I use that "have rules").right. and the people who haven't been blocked. surely their opinion is worth more...
> I'm tired of PB these days.. I find the arguing of so many small points to be very very tiring. And you know what, its making me forget the good points and the goo people.. Which is very sadhmm. maybe you need a break from admin?????
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 11:50:50
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
> bob seems to be able to not take stuff personally (which enables him to interveane without lashing out) if deputies don't understand that / aren't guided by that...
Do you think I took Verne's post personally and lashed out?
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:12:46
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
I have been blocked, yes. Twice, maybe three times, I don't really remember. Maybe more, as things have got quite heated between me and someone else here at times. Someone who I accept pulls my triggers badly, and who I cannot remain calm with. I left for a short while, but made the decision that I wanted to be here more than I didn't want to be here, and that I had to take the risk of my actions.
I read the politics board yes, but no, I don't post. Again, a decision I have made. Partly due to trying to get round the civility rules, and partly due to me not actually wanting to discuss politics with the poeple here. I have found somewhere else to do it.
I think I am losing the point of what YOU want here. You admit there are good uses of the blocking system.. So what is it you want? Remember, no one here is a mind reader, and often cannot know what the true intent of a message is.
And I had a really deep insightful comment to finish with, but went and dished up dinner and totally forgot it *L* (darned painkillers!)
Nikki x
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:54:40
In reply to I'll never forget the goo people ;^) (nm) » NikkiT2, posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 5:13:51
*pmp*
I missed this earlier somehow!!
Goo is important in life. Goo people are like molten jelly babies *L*
N x
Posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 14:00:34
In reply to Re: I'll never forget the goo people ;^) » gardenergirl, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:54:40
Posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
> Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..
****yeah. whatever that means... sometimes people don't understand the difference... don't understand that their interpretation may not reflect reality... so you think they should be blocked and that is just too bad????*****
Blocks do not happen out of the blue. There are several warnings leading up to the block. I think the system was designed that way to give people a chance to reflect on the way their posts are being interpreted by others.
If after the warnings, the poster still can't see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.
We can nitpick all day, but Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone and after warnings the responsibility rests with the poster to see that.
Posted by Declan on May 12, 2006, at 18:40:45
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
But he wanted to get blocked, and eventually he managed it. I hope he got some pleasure out of being here; he gave me a lot of fun.
Declan
Posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 19:48:13
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 11:50:50
> Do you think I took Verne's post personally and lashed out?no.
i just meant that bob seems to be more focused on blocking / punishing people...
and so i figure he trains deputies to do the same...
when there are other ways to handle things.
i'm sorry.
i think i put my foot in it again :-(
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 21:15:42
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 19:48:13
I think I try to handle things other ways as often as possible. I don't think I'd ever be known as "quick draw Dinah".
And Dr. Bob doesn't give us any particular training in punishing people. :) Although that does paint an amusing picture. I can just see the blackboard illustrations. (I hope you see the humor in it too. If not, excuse me.)
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:55:51
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 21:15:42
> I think I try to handle things other ways as often as possible. I don't think I'd ever be known as "quick draw Dinah".
no... but then how about 'quick draw bob'
?
sometimes...
it is relative...
> And Dr. Bob doesn't give us any particular training in punishing people.oh. i thought there were guidelines on when it was okay to interveane (with warnings / blockings) and when it was not okay to interveane. i thought there were rules on block length (though that might be changing...) etc etc.
so... doesn't that mean he does give you training in punishing people?
er... does he give you training in deescalating the situation?
in other ways of calming things down?or... just a system of punishment?
this isn't about you. you do what is in your job description.
i'm just wondering about the job description is all...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:04
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
> Blocks do not happen out of the blue.depends on what you mean by 'out of the blue'.
i thought i've seen some come fairly much 'out of the blue'.
> If after the warnings, the poster still can't see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
how about their hurts???> We can nitpick all day, but Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone.
right. but bob's interpretations...
are the ones that really matter.with respect to being exiled etc etc.
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Declan on May 12, 2006, at 18:40:45
> But he wanted to get blocked, and eventually he managed it.
i wonder why?
resigning himself to his likely fate?????
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 4:00:53
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
aka...
did the blocking system...
escalate the situation...
actually resulting in incivility.bob has wondered how much his presence might provoke incivility...
i wonder whether bob has wondered how much his blocking system might provoke incivility.
and i wonder whether bob has wondered whether the former might happen (if it does...) in virtue of the latter.
perhaps...
Posted by gardenergirl on May 13, 2006, at 9:27:49
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 4:00:53
Even if civility is "incited", it's still up to us as posters to manage our reactions and to frame our posts within the civility guidelines. If that becomes harder to do because of stronger emotions, then we need to have a way to cope with that, whether that means stepping away from the computer, writing what you want to say and sending it to a friend or deleting it, using a civility buddy, talking it over with someone, etc.
Even when we're hurt, it's up to us to remain civil. It's a behavior choice. Some may be more skilled in this behavior than others, that's true. But there are compensatory and adaptive behavior choices available.
Managing our own behavior is within our locus of control. Getting the rules changed here is not. If you look at what's effective in achieving a desired result, I think paying attention to what is within us to change versus what we don't have control over might be more effective. Assuming the goal is reducing blocks.
This doesn't mean we can't try to influence what is not within our control. But all we can do is try to influence. We have no control over external outcomes.
So, assuming a goal is to see fewer blocks here, which way seems more effective? Of course, I'm assuming the goal, and of course I could be mistaken.
gg
Posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 9:55:11
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » madeline, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:04
If after the warnings, the poster still can't <<<see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.>>>>
******ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
how about their hurts???*****YES! That is exactly it!! People learn how to express their hurts without hurting, offending or belittling others, or they are excluded from the discourse. That is exactly right!!!
It happens IRL and it SHOULD happen here as well. We can be horribly, terribly, irreparably hurt, but that never gives us the right to hurt other people.
Is it a perfect system? no. Nothing is ever perfect. Who decides what hurts others? Dr. Bob and the deputies.
The blocks and PBCs aren't designed to be punitive, but rather to help us control HOW we interact with others.
Now, I am probably one the biggest anti-authority, anti-establishment persons on the planet. People in power are to be checked and mistrusted at every turn. Abuse of power happens.
But I really don't think that is what is happening on these boards.
We have ultimate control here. WE control what we say or don't say. We control how we say it and when.
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:14:40
In reply to Responsibility and blocks, posted by gardenergirl on May 13, 2006, at 9:27:49
> Even if civility is "incited", it's still up to us as posters to manage our reactions and to frame our posts within the civility guidelines. If that becomes harder to do because of stronger emotions, then we need to have a way to cope with that, whether that means stepping away from the computer, writing what you want to say and sending it to a friend or deleting it, using a civility buddy, talking it over with someone, etc.
ok. how about the cases where people have no idea. thinking mostly about politics here...
i notice that the deputies tend to leave politics to bob.
why is that?
because over there... he is comparatively unpredictable?
no sh*t...
> So, assuming a goal is to see fewer blocks here, which way seems more effective? Of course, I'm assuming the goal, and of course I could be mistaken.yeah. there comes a point where you figure the harms (or potential harms even...) outweigh the good (or possible good even).
you have heard me talk about how much babble means to me and how much babble has helped me so i guess you have some idea of how much is at stake...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:22:46
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » Estella, posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 9:55:11
> ******ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
> how about their hurts???*****
> YES! That is exactly it!! People learn how to express their hurts without hurting, offending or belittling others, or they are excluded from the discourse. That is exactly right!!!though that isn't quite right...
it is that (to adapt what you said a bit)
'People learn how to express their hurts without the POSSIBILITY of others feeling hurt, offended, or belittled, or they are excluded...'Because people don't just get blocked when someone IS offended... People get blocked because Bob judges that people *possibly could* feel offended. Of course people *could* take offence at anything and everything. So Bob uses his judgement... Hmm. And it is that that I am questioning.
How many ACTUAL people get harmed because Bob is worried about POSSIBLE people (who might not even exist). He rates them highly (probably because they justify his decision). But how about the harm to the ACTUAL people?
> Now, I am probably one the biggest anti-authority, anti-establishment persons on the planet. People in power are to be checked and mistrusted at every turn. Abuse of power happens.> But I really don't think that is what is happening on these boards.
So you have suspended your mistrust...
Now someone said this to me back in the old days... And I was mad about it and I thought they were wrong. But someone said to me... To give it time. And I hated it at the time. But now... Well... That is what I say to you. Give it time. And you will see that good, decent, loving people who don't hurt anyone (aside from maybe being a little harsh with their opinions - but then you should hear their reasons... But good decent loving people... Are blocked. Because of some vague possibility that only Bob can comprehend. Just wait till it happens to you or someone you care about. Eventually... I anticipate a change in tune...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:26:52
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » madeline, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:22:46
and the million dollar question is...
why won't bob take responsibility for the harms
to the community
that result from his blocking system?he can go on all he likes about how it is necessary / the best way in a VLG...
but then how come other experts disagree?
you got a single other expert who agrees with your blocking system Bob?
or are you going out on a limb?
it is indeed going out on a limb...
to disregard the harm as an 'unintended side effect'
yeah thats right you have no responsibility / obligation to us whatsoever.but then...
who wrote that down as a rule?
you and your committee?
you gonna cite yourself in court?
nice to be some...
and why should we trust you again????????????
Posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 14:37:30
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » madeline, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:22:46
****Because people don't just get blocked when someone IS offended... People get blocked because Bob judges that people *possibly could* feel offended. Of course people *could* take offence at anything and everything. So Bob uses his judgement... Hmm. And it is that that I am questioning.****
One post ago, you agreed that Dr. Bob's interpretation was just as valid as anyone else's.
****though that isn't quite right...
it is that (to adapt what you said a bit)
'People learn how to express their hurts without the POSSIBILITY of others feeling hurt, offended, or belittled, or they are excluded...'****Yes, that's right. We must express it without the possiblility of people getting hurt. That is the essence of civility.
*****But good decent loving people... Are blocked****
But they can come back. It's their choice.
Posted by Declan on May 13, 2006, at 17:30:13
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
Someone (you?) told me how to do that highlighting thing you do so you know what is being discussed, but
I've forgotten.Verne was saying for ages that he needed a life and this here wasn't right.
The other thing here is that you spend a lot of energy putting up posts and then spend more regretting your personality (speaking personally)
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