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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by newwife on October 9, 2004, at 21:48:59
i dont want to drag anyone into this. i would hate for someone to get in trouble b/c of me. this is my thing and i dont want to get anyone mad or involved in this. please understand i am not that type of person to start a riot.
Posted by fayeroe on October 9, 2004, at 21:58:23
In reply to i am not trying to start a war, posted by newwife on October 9, 2004, at 21:48:59
Hon, don't worry about me....I'm older than dirt and this ain't my first rodeo! I just wanted you to know that I understood what you were trying to say and I didn't feel that you meant anything uncivil when you said it. I feel that if some can say things the way they say is the only way they can say them (that was tiring), then perhaps others need to be given leeway also. I feel that the rules here are sometimes enforced willy-nilly and I've tilted at the windmill before........many, many times. Take care. I'm going to bed. Pat
Posted by newwife on October 9, 2004, at 21:59:33
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war, posted by fayeroe on October 9, 2004, at 21:58:23
Posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 11:20:53
In reply to i am not trying to start a war, posted by newwife on October 9, 2004, at 21:48:59
Don't worry about it. There's already enough anger bubbling under the surface of Admin to blow the lid off Mt. St. Helens. I've thrown down a gauntlet that should have been thrown down a long time ago. If there are consequences for me as a result, you aren't to blame. You were just one more element in what I feel is a simmering sense of discontent with the way PB is being run. And all I suggest in my above post is that maybe, just maybe, someone else besides Doc B could do a more able and fair job as the Web site's administrator. My own sense is that PB is a good idea that is not living up to its potential, and that perhaps it could do so under different leadership. Atticus
Posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 12:22:09
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » newwife, posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 11:20:53
It's also worth noting that there are many other forums out there on the internet that may be more suitable than this one for some people.
Posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 16:26:21
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » Atticus, posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 12:22:09
It's worth noting as well that Bob made a pointed reference, in one of his responses to newwife, that by suggesting the guests go to another hotel, she'd risk the possibility of making them feel unwelcome. I'm struck by the irony of the indirect suggestion that this page may not be for me when it is juxtaposed against Bob's argument that it would be hurtful to suggest to guests that the hotel might not be the right one for them, and that there were plenty more hotels out there. I feel as if you are using as a positive suggestion the same line of reasoning that Bob used as a an example of a hurtful and potentially negative suggestion -- which boils down to, if you don't like the way things are, hit the road. Atticus
Posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 17:00:28
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » partlycloudy, posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 16:26:21
I must say that's the first time I've been accused of being negative by being positive. What a spin! Really, I was trying to make a *friendly*, *supportive* suggestion.
And that's all I'm going to say here for a l-o-n-g time.
G'bye
Posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 17:01:38
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » partlycloudy, posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 16:26:21
BTW how about you don't post to me anymore? Thanks.
Posted by Jai Narayan on October 11, 2004, at 17:23:54
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » Atticus, posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 17:01:38
Posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 17:29:50
In reply to PC are you alright?....:( (nm), posted by Jai Narayan on October 11, 2004, at 17:23:54
Posted by AuntieMel on October 11, 2004, at 17:55:19
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » partlycloudy, posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 16:26:21
PC doesn't have a mean bone in her body, and would never say anything purposeful to hurt anyone. She does, however, have troubles with arguments and debates, so for her to say anything at all took courage.
I don't think she was trying to tell you to hit the road - I think that she was stating that some folks might find it too restrictive at babble.
And this may be true. Does it apply to you? That's a different question entirely, and I don't think she implied that it did. At least that's not the way I read it.
Posted by Gabbix2 on October 11, 2004, at 20:09:05
In reply to Re: That seems unfair to me » Atticus, posted by AuntieMel on October 11, 2004, at 17:55:19
> PC doesn't have a mean bone in her body, and would never say anything purposeful to hurt anyone. She does, however, have troubles with arguments and debates, so for her to say anything at all took courage.
>
> I don't think she was trying to tell you to hit the road - I think that she was stating that some folks might find it too restrictive at babble.
>
> And this may be true. Does it apply to you? That's a different question entirely, and I don't think she implied that it did. At least that's not the way I read it.ME neither.. Brava Auntie Mel
GxG
Posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 20:18:58
In reply to Re: i am not trying to start a war » Atticus, posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 17:00:28
All I was noting was the irony in a statement that said, in essence, people who don't like PB can always leave and go elsewhere, when Bob had used the precise opposite of that statement, that newwife would be making people feel bad by suggesting they could always leave the hotel and go elsewhere. I felt that you were using a tenet to defend Bob that Bob himself had already cast as undesirable and potentially hurtful. Atticus
Posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 20:45:49
In reply to Re: That seems unfair to me » Atticus, posted by AuntieMel on October 11, 2004, at 17:55:19
Please see my earlier statement to PC before she banned me from posting to her, which I don't recall doing much in the past, if at all. I was just comparing a statement made by Bob about newwife possibly making guests feel unwelcome by suggesting they leave and find another hotel (something she never, ever said or even implied, I might add; this bit of unnecessarily sharp-edged hyperbole was completely Bob's own invention. In addition, the comparison of Bob to the unhinged Captain Queeg in "The Caine Mutiny" was not an idea I introduced either, but it sure ramped up the emotional ante in this "discussion.") I just thought that, having read through the whole thread, that it was surprising that PC would say that those unhappy with PB could always go to another site, when Bob had completely fabricated a similar action on newwife's part (told you he was good at rhetorical misdirection) and rejected it as something that had the potential to make the person to whom it was directed feel "unwelcome." Struck me as inconsistent to suggest something in the same spirit as something that Bob himself had rejected (even if he did make it up whole cloth and tack it onto what newwife had said when he responded to her). I feel angry because I feel I've just seen Bob pull this kind of thing too many times to too many people, and not get called on it. So, Bob, I'm calling you on it. It's about time someone did. To move this discussion in a more proactive direction though, I'd like to suggest this: that you delegate the responsibility and have someone else (or a number of people, perhaps graduate psych doctoral students) handle the task of responding to Babblers. People who are perhaps more flexible, more willing to rethink their decisions, like the apparently arbitrary three-post rule, for example. Perhaps your strengths simply don't lie in the administrative area. If they did, I can't help but imagine that this page would less consistently resemble a Roman gladiatorial arena. At least think about it. Atticus
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2004, at 21:47:22
In reply to Re: That seems unfair to me » AuntieMel, posted by Atticus on October 11, 2004, at 20:45:49
From Atticus post:
> ... <I was just comparing a statement made by Bob about newwife possibly making guests feel unwelcome by suggesting they leave and find another hotel (something she never, ever said or even implied, I might add; this bit of unnecessarily sharp-edged hyperbole was completely Bob's own invention>..... <when Bob had completely fabricated a similar action on newwife's part (told you he was good at rhetorical misdirection) and rejected it as something that had the potential to make the person to whom it was directed feel "unwelcome.">...<even if he did make it up whole cloth and tack it onto what newwife had said when he responded to her).>From me, Dinah:
I am totally confused. Admittedly, my brain isn't working at high speed at the moment, but I thought Dr. Bob was replying to this statement{i feel like someone that is upset by so many posts should be asked to leave this foram. i am in management in a hotel, and i learned that no matter what, there will always be those guests that check in and nothing you do will ever make them happy, and after you try and try and try there comes a time where you have to say, "sir/mam obviously we are not going to be able to make you happy, so i would be glad to make other arrangments for you at another hotel."}
made in this post
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040927/msgs/400856.html
How is the Dr. Bob's reply something that he "make it up whole cloth and tack it onto what newwife had said"?
Am I totally missing something that makes the connection implausible? If so, and I'm misinterpreting one or both statements, isn't it possible that Dr. Bob interpreted it the same way I did?
Believe me, I'm more than willing to believe I'm not reading things right right now. My brain feels like tapioca pudding. But it doesn't seem like a non-sequitur to me...
Posted by Toph on October 12, 2004, at 1:30:48
In reply to I'm confused » Atticus, posted by Dinah on October 11, 2004, at 21:47:22
I studied Newwife's original post and Bob's subsequent PBC. Insofar as she mentioned her displeasure with posters who repeatedly complained about other posters' messages and later spoke of banning practices, I agree now that Bob's question does not appear to be a non-sequitor. As a matter of fact, if it is not a non-sequitor this PBC becomes all the more troubling to me now.
Bob frequently has to look beyond the literal words in a message to the poster's intent all the time in applying civility standards. Everytime I read Bob's question, "You just offer that, or you force them to leave?" I'm left with the same feeling about his intent. Try as a might, I cannot believe that he is truely interested in the literal specifics of how Jess handles her disgruntled clients, rather I sense a rhetorical statement to her that, "You don't really force them to leave, so you can't really expect me to ban people who are chronic complainers, can you?"
Finally, given how divisive this incident has become, perhaps it would be helpful for Bob to specifically clarify to all here whether he has a mere curiosity about hotel management or if he intended, as many suspect, to criticize Jess for her suggestion. -Toph
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2004, at 4:14:48
In reply to Re: We're all confused » Dinah, posted by Toph on October 12, 2004, at 1:30:48
> Bob made a pointed reference, in one of his responses to newwife, that by suggesting the guests go to another hotel, she'd risk the possibility of making them feel unwelcome.
>
> AtticusWhat I said was:
> In that case, in this context, where arrangements don't need to be made elsewhere, wouldn't it just convey that they aren't welcome?
Meaning, my concern was that I would make posters feel unwelcome if I asked them to leave.
> given how divisive this incident has become, perhaps it would be helpful for Bob to specifically clarify to all here whether he has a mere curiosity about hotel management or if he intended, as many suspect, to criticize Jess for her suggestion.
>
> TophI think there may be parallels between hotel management and board management, but my comment above specified this context. I didn't mean to criticize how Jess does her job, I just wasn't sure that approach would translate so well to this context. For one thing, her guests may appreciate having alternative arrangements made, but I can't do that.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 7:58:07
In reply to Re: We're all confused » Dinah, posted by Toph on October 12, 2004, at 1:30:48
It is so hard to express nuance in writing, although it's something I enjoy trying to do.
When I said that for all I knew, Dr. Bob was expressing an interest in hotel management, I wasn't being literal. It was my smiling offering of the fact that I couldn't really say for sure what he meant exactly. Just that it wasn't my reading of his character or, perhaps even more importantly, style to think that he meant it the way it was being interpreted.
And I also apologize for not grasping that posters might be taking Dr. Bob's words as a comment on newwife's hotel management skills. I can see that if people read it that way, it could appear sarcastic. As it turns out, Dr. Bob made clear that he didn't mean it that way. But I apologize for totally missing an important element of the conversation.
Posted by Toph on October 12, 2004, at 8:16:45
In reply to Re: confused, posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2004, at 4:14:48
I appreciate that you responded. What I'm still a little confused about is that I feel like in your statement above you obfuscated the context of newwife's initial post and subsequent PBC by including your later discourse with Atticus. I accept your explanation that you didn't intend to criticise Jess' job techniques, but can I also infer from this that you did not intend to criticise or mock her request that posters she described as problematic be asked to leave?
Posted by Toph on October 12, 2004, at 9:22:22
In reply to Re: confused » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on October 12, 2004, at 8:16:45
I'm sorry, Bob, I reread your post and you did address the issue of your intention vis a vis the topic of banishment. I hope you can understand nonetheless the misunderstanding of so many here about the tone of your question. -Toph
Posted by newwife on October 12, 2004, at 18:38:08
In reply to Re: confused, posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2004, at 4:14:48
but, once again i never wrote that i ask them to leave, but maybe if they were not happy that i would try to offer them something that would make them happy. if you had taken the time to write me sooner, then maybe i could have given you my ideas. I want to clarify that I NEVER WAS WANTING YOU TO ASK ANYONE TO LEAVE, rather make sure someone is happy.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 13, 2004, at 2:16:13
In reply to Re: bob, i can understand that..........but...., posted by newwife on October 12, 2004, at 18:38:08
> I NEVER WAS WANTING YOU TO ASK ANYONE TO LEAVE
See above:
> i feel like someone that is upset by so many posts should be asked to leave this foram.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040927/msgs/400856.html
> i said he should be asked to leave.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040927/msgs/400900.html
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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