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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 6:58:38
Subtitle: Why obsolete word meanings have no value in debate.
If anyone recalls form a few weeks ago, I very publicly worked through my discomfort with respect to what I felt was ignorance about the impact of verbal violence. It can take me a little bit of time to get to the root emotion, because I need to gain the impression that I'm understood and that I understand others before I address the emotions themselves. Well, there are a few threads that have played out here which have left me very uncomfortable, and I can now discuss why that is. It has totally disturbed my sleep last night, and I feel the need to express my opinions and feelings, in full knowledge that I am a biased observer. I wasn't even a participant, and my feelings were hurt. So, in case somebody goes there, *I* was hurt by what I read. I know other people were, too.
Etymology, the study of the origin of words, can be a rather fascinating journey back in time, to different cultures and different ways of thinking. I saw that process used as a weapon, and I saw people being hurt, and I really think that incivility was breached long before Dr. Bob intervened.
If you'll permit me to give a couple examples of what I mean....
There is an Old English word, arising from the Germanic, spelled shite (or shyte), which refers to an illness in cattle, producing copious diarrhea, which can lead to fatal dehydration. We now call that scours. In common usage today, and by placing the prefix bull- in front of it (still quite contextual, non?), you develop the word symbolized by BS. When one hears that word uttered, particularly in a heated emotional environment, would one think of references to cattle diarrhea? I think not. We accept that it is a reference to untruthfulness, and claiming the former meaning would not be accepted as a defense for the use of the word. It is similarly inappropriate to reach back towards an archaic meaning (with reference to the "nasty piece of work" concept), as that is akin to putting words in another's mouth. What makes that style of "debate" particularly nasty is that the exact words used can be verified, despite the lack of intent to refer to the archaic meaning. It's like referring to a "rule of thumb". Look up what that used to mean. Nobody means that today.
Another example is the word "nice". I hear it all the time, as in "She's such a nice girl." If I was to use the word today, I would definitely be referring to this colloquial meaning. However, the word is of ancient lineage, deriving from the Latin word for ignorant (nescius, literally, ne (not) and the participle form of the verb scire (to know)). Over the years, a new meaning arose, and you may still see that meaning in scholarly debate, e.g. "He made a nice argument.", where nice means delicate, detailed, precise. However, even in that same meaning, nice came to be used pejoratively, and the same sentence I used as an example could have been taken to mean that the argument raised was picayune or hair-splitting. Frankly, I saw a lot of nice argument posted in this forum, over the last couple days.
Sometimes, I find that referring to older meanings has a soothing effect. For example, the word disease. Years ago, as part of my journey towards wellness, I used 12-step programs to address my substance abuse problems. One of the key concepts with which I struggles was the idea that I had "the disease of addiction". Today, the word has a rather negative medical connotation. However, I discovered that the word came into English from the Old French diseasu, which meant "not at peace", in a spiritual sense. I could not think of a *better* way to describe my struggle with addiction.
There are positive ways to use etymology. I have seen other processes at work here.
I know I don't have to read any thread, but when I see one with furious activity, I am drawn to it, out of curiosity. Whatever was going on (I'm not going to look for motives in another's postings), I'm glad it's over.
Lar
Posted by jlo820 on August 23, 2003, at 8:54:25
In reply to A short introduction to etymology, posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 6:58:38
Posted by Susan J on August 23, 2003, at 11:46:20
In reply to A short introduction to etymology, posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 6:58:38
>>Well, there are a few threads that have played out here which have left me very uncomfortable, and I can now discuss why that is. It has totally disturbed my sleep last night, and I feel the need to express my opinions and feelings, in full knowledge that I am a biased observer. I wasn't even a participant, and my feelings were hurt. So, in case somebody goes there, *I* was hurt by what I read. I know other people were, too.
<<I am sorry if anything I contributed to these threads hurt you or contributed to your discomfort. I started off trying to help, then felt attacked, then felt the need to defend myself. And sticking up for myself is one of the things my therapist told me to do so that I felt more empowered, more in control over my own life.
Not that you wanted to know that or anything. It's an explanation, not an excuse.
I liked your post, too. Very eloquent.
Could you or somebody else please tell me why I(and others) get drawn into these types of arguments that really have no merit?
Thanks,
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 12:37:07
In reply to Re: A short introduction to etymology » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on August 23, 2003, at 11:46:20
> >>Well, there are a few threads that have played out here which have left me very uncomfortable, and I can now discuss why that is. It has totally disturbed my sleep last night, and I feel the need to express my opinions and feelings, in full knowledge that I am a biased observer. I wasn't even a participant, and my feelings were hurt. So, in case somebody goes there, *I* was hurt by what I read. I know other people were, too.
>
> <<I am sorry if anything I contributed to these threads hurt you or contributed to your discomfort.Not in any way. I was not referring to your posts. Thanks for apologizing.
>I started off trying to help, then felt attacked, then felt the need to defend myself. And sticking up for myself is one of the things my therapist told me to do so that I felt more empowered, more in control over my own life.
I think that your feeling attacked was justified, and your responses were measured and on point.
> Not that you wanted to know that or anything. It's an explanation, not an excuse.You needed to say it, so I'm happy to listen. And, your posts were not the least bit offensive to me.
> I liked your post, too. Very eloquent.Thanks. I'm finding flaws in it, as I reread it, but I think I got my point across. I wonder though, what anyone might think if I ever was to say that I think someone was nice.
> Could you or somebody else please tell me why I(and others) get drawn into these types of arguments that really have no merit?
>
> Thanks,
> SusanI'll tell you how I get drawn in. (Had I not been at a fair with my kids, you might have seen me posting in the middle of the whole brouhaha, rather than at the end.) I get drawn in when someone judges me. They may question my motives, my values, my intent, my meaning. Or out of the blue, assumptions are made which are totally unfair, inappropriate, hyperbolic, pejorative by inference,....
I know who I am, and I'll happily tell you. But, don't tell me who I am, what I meant, what I value....
And, no matter what, don't trivialize or dismiss my feelings.
Susan, I have only "seen" a little bit of who you are, but my impression is one of great sensitivity, and strong empathy. I don't think you need worry overly much about how you use your judgment.
Lar
Posted by shar on August 23, 2003, at 14:08:06
In reply to A short introduction to etymology, posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 6:58:38
>It's like referring to a "rule of thumb". Look up what that used to mean. Nobody means that today.
This is an excellent example, and one I'm glad you used. I've posted about it a couple of times just to increase awareness among the folks here.
I still cringe when I hear the phrase, and often say something about it (if it is appropriate to in the situation), and recommend that people say "as a general rule" or "in general" or "generally" or something like that.
Thanks again, I enjoyed the substance and content of your post.
Shar
Posted by stjames on August 23, 2003, at 14:35:37
In reply to Re: A short introduction to etymology » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 12:37:07
I get drawn in when someone has a history of giving deadly advice, such as stopping meds at once.
Posted by stjames on August 23, 2003, at 17:45:45
In reply to Re: A short introduction to etymology » Larry Hoover, posted by shar on August 23, 2003, at 14:08:06
> >It's like referring to a "rule of thumb". Look up what that used to mean. Nobody means that today.
It used to mean that a man could beat his wife with a stick no bigger than his thumb.
Posted by shar on August 23, 2003, at 22:01:32
In reply to Re: A short introduction to etymology, posted by stjames on August 23, 2003, at 17:45:45
Re rule of thumb....exactly right. That's why I've posted here about it before, and what it meant, because so many people don't realize it's roots.
I'm glad you know, and that Larry mentioned it, and I'll continue to bring it up even tho it does tend to bring about eye-rolling, and "oh, no, another feminist" attitudes. But that I can deal with!
Shar
Posted by Susan J on August 25, 2003, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: A short introduction to etymology » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 12:37:07
>>Susan, I have only "seen" a little bit of who you are, but my impression is one of great sensitivity, and strong empathy. I don't think you need worry overly much about how you use your judgment.
<<OK, this is the 2nd time a post of mine hasn't shown up. Don't know what's going on, but I wanted to thank you Larry, for your kinds words. They mean a lot, especially since I'm a bit bummed today 600 miles away from anyone I know.
Take care, and I hope this one shows up.
Ciao,
Susan
Posted by Kar on August 26, 2003, at 21:27:00
In reply to Re: A short introduction to etymology » stjames, posted by shar on August 23, 2003, at 22:01:32
How are you Shar? i have missed your posts. Hope you're not going through at tough time...
karen
Posted by shar on August 27, 2003, at 20:45:38
In reply to A quick aside, posted by Kar on August 26, 2003, at 21:27:00
How sweet of you to ask! Thanks for thinking of me. I decided to stay away from Social, and I am still on the tail end of a tough time. Man, this is a tenacious disease!
I hope you are ok!
Take care,
Shar> How are you Shar? i have missed your posts. Hope you're not going through at tough time...
> karen
This is the end of the thread.
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