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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lostsailor on May 21, 2003, at 13:43:28
This was part of the post I was referring to in “defending/defense [ of] doc bob”
> Do you get the feeling that Mr U and John b55 are working together " synergistically" ?
All I can say is , hmmmm....
It is too bad we can be shaken down by whatever company that wants to come here
and hawlk their product, and is not stupid enough
to say " I am from company X".
Why do the needs of one outweigh the safety of the mentally ill on this list ? I find it unexceptable for a moderator to say, "Gee, I just don't know, so I will do nothing".
On other lists the moderator does not have trouble calling a stop to this at some point.<<The post of “defending/ in defense sorry I forgot how I wrote it.
>>It might be rather difficult for him to know whether a "person" is talking from experience or its "sales rep" doing the lingo.
I think that doc, and rightly so, does not want to censor any of "us" but I also feel that if he knew of "advertising" he would not allow it...
thats just my $.02, though...
~tony <<And was redirected to admin.
Sorry doc, it’s confusing at times re: where to post mid thread and also keep the continuity of it. I thought my reply would “fit” there. I assume you gathered that mine was not meant to be hostile or disrespectful to you or the above two posters ( a PBC issue). But, in future situations that are similar, is it better just to read and pass or to post what your (my) feelings were/are…
Seems a fine and , for me at least, curvy line. Can you help explain re: that or a hypothetical similar post.
Thanks,
~tony
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2003, at 14:21:48
In reply to redirest question, bob....=:), posted by lostsailor on May 21, 2003, at 13:43:28
> Sorry doc, it’s confusing at times re: where to post mid thread and also keep the continuity of it. I thought my reply would "fit" there. I assume you gathered that mine was not meant to be hostile or disrespectful to you or the above two posters ( a PBC issue). But, in future situations that are similar, is it better just to read and pass or to post what your (my) feelings were/are…
Sorry it's confusing. It's fine to post. If you post about something administrative, I'd rather you redirected your post here, but if you don't, I can do it, and it's not a big deal.
Bob
Posted by stjames on May 21, 2003, at 22:35:23
In reply to redirest question, bob....=:), posted by lostsailor on May 21, 2003, at 13:43:28
> >>It might be rather difficult for him to know whether a "person" is talking from experience or its "sales rep" doing the lingo.It seems it is also rather difficult to diganos
mental illness & treat it, as there are no gold standard tests. Somehow, some docs are able to
do that.In fact, it seems all of psychology and behavior is this way, and yet some are able to make good judgement calls.
How do i judge if someone is selling or not:
1) most mentally ill have long treatment histories and lots to say and ask. I suspect those who pop out of nowhere and say "I have been cured by xxx"
and have nothing else to say.2) The word "cure" is a tip off. there is no cure
for mental illness, yet. If a poster did not use the work "cure" I would tend to not discount their claims so quickly3) the grander the claim the better the proof better be.
4) if someone posted that a new compound cured them I would tend to suspect this less than posting about things people have taken for 1,000's
of years. If an herb cured mental illness, for even a small number of people, it seems in the course of 1,000's of years this would now be common knowlage.5) this is a very common issue on many boards of many different subjects and others are able to discern who is selling.
Posted by shar on May 22, 2003, at 18:06:57
In reply to Re: redirest question, bob....=:), posted by stjames on May 21, 2003, at 22:35:23
St. James:
Excellent information, esp. about the "cure" part.
Shar
>
> How do i judge if someone is selling or not:
>
> 1) most mentally ill have long treatment histories and lots to say and ask. I suspect those who pop out of nowhere and say "I have been cured by xxx"
> and have nothing else to say.
>
> 2) The word "cure" is a tip off. there is no cure
> for mental illness, yet. If a poster did not use the work "cure" I would tend to not discount their claims so quickly
>
> 3) the grander the claim the better the proof better be.
>
> 4) if someone posted that a new compound cured them I would tend to suspect this less than posting about things people have taken for 1,000's
> of years. If an herb cured mental illness, for even a small number of people, it seems in the course of 1,000's of years this would now be common knowlage.
>
> 5) this is a very common issue on many boards of many different subjects and others are able to discern who is selling.
>
>
>
Posted by stjames on May 22, 2003, at 18:42:37
In reply to selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by shar on May 22, 2003, at 18:06:57
> St. James:
> Excellent information, esp. about the "cure" part.
Thank you Shar !
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 23, 2003, at 11:17:30
In reply to selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by shar on May 22, 2003, at 18:06:57
> Excellent information, esp. about the "cure" part.
I agree, they're great guidelines. I've added them to the "Whom should I trust?" section of the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#trust
Please feel free to refer people to them when this comes up...
Bob
Posted by stjames on May 23, 2003, at 17:48:06
In reply to Re: selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by Dr. Bob on May 23, 2003, at 11:17:30
> I agree, they're great guidelines.
Great, thanks. So why cannot you use them
as a guide, also ?
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 23, 2003, at 18:42:40
In reply to Re: selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by stjames on May 23, 2003, at 17:48:06
> > I agree, they're great guidelines.
>
> Great, thanks. So why cannot you use them
> as a guide, also ?I do use them as a *guide*, but I don't think I feel certain enough about conclusions based on them to block people, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
Bob
Posted by stjames on May 25, 2003, at 13:10:09
In reply to Re: selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by Dr. Bob on May 23, 2003, at 18:42:40
> > > I agree, they're great guidelines.
> >
> > Great, thanks. So why cannot you use them
> > as a guide, also ?
>
> I do use them as a *guide*, but I don't think I feel certain enough about conclusions based on them to block people, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
>
> Bob
Hmmm.I did not say block. There is a big range between block and doing nothing. At present it seems you
can only react with one or the other. To say " I have no way of telling" reads out here in user space as "I will not protect you, you are on your own". Also it seems that in the past these sales person issues blow up and cause all to get upset as they wait for you to react. We do feel captive as a Bin Laden type flames us. We feel like sheep.
Also I feel it belittles and shows no empathy for the nature of mental illness to say "just don't read it". As you know, many with mental illness lack coping skills to deal with thse kind of things.So, what to do ? On an ADD list I was on these issues were delt with as so:
If someone posts and it seems to fit the reasonable guidelines I set for detecting
a salesperson or fraud, then the moderator,
without saying "You are a salesperson"
posts and mentions the selling stuff here is not OK. As you do speak up when people jump to conclusions and make sweeping generalizations,
why not when they make claims like "A cure". Again
you are not saying "Don't post that" more like "A cure would be wonderful but as we seem far from that at present, would you mind also posting some additional info about your cure so we may all can discuss this cure"I do beleive this mess with bin lauden got worse because you said noting when the other poster first started. While it is true he may not of stopped, a post from you would assure the users
that you were watching this issue. No, I am not asking you to second guess every post. These "salesperson" issues have been few and far between in the 3 years I have been here. We posters seem to be able to quickly ID those who **might** be salespersons, so it does not seem that hard to do.In the over the top cases like bin lauden, why not let the deputies block them ? I do understand
you have the very full duties of a college professor and I know you get to these issues
as quickly as possible. However you now have thousands of users so I think at some point
the needs of the many (to be safe) outweight
the needs of the one (to have control). Note that I mention control because you have indicated this is the issue with letting the deputies have more discretion.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 26, 2003, at 23:06:48
In reply to Re: selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by stjames on May 25, 2003, at 13:10:09
> Hmmm.
>
> I did not say block. There is a big range between block and doing nothing. At present it seems you can only react with one or the other. To say " I have no way of telling" reads out here in user space as "I will not protect you, you are on your own". Also it seems that in the past these sales person issues blow up and cause all to get upset as they wait for you to react.First, we've had salespeople here before, and I think it's OK for them to post. When it comes to information here, and online in general, don't necessarily believe everything you hear. But that doesn't necessarily mean you're on your own and have to wait for me to react, you can respond yourself without blowing things up, for example:
> So, what to do ? On an ADD list I was on these issues were delt with as so:
>
> If someone posts and it seems to fit the reasonable guidelines I set for detecting a salesperson or fraud, then the moderator, without saying "You are a salesperson" posts ... not saying "Don't post that" more like "A cure would be wonderful but as we seem far from that at present, would you mind also posting some additional info about your cure so we may all can discuss this cure"IMO, that wouldn't have to be posted by a moderator, anyone could post that -- and link to your guidelines, too.
> In the over the top cases like bin lauden, why not let the deputies block them ?
The deputies can block them. I think it was just an issue of none of us being here for a while.
Bob
Posted by stjames on May 27, 2003, at 15:37:59
In reply to Re: selling --Guidelines from St. james, posted by Dr. Bob on May 26, 2003, at 23:06:48
> First, we've had salespeople here before, and I think it's OK for them to post.
Ah, I forgot this point. I do now remember it.
So we are on our own to refute this stuff.
This is the end of the thread.
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