![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 13:10:19
First off, I am doing this for the same reason I have posted my feelings and concerns here all along - a selfish reason. If I didn't care about the board and how it relates to Me, I would not have argued for certain things on the admin board as I have. So I am selfish. And my leaving is selfish. And I'm hoping that this final, final, final word, will give me the strength not to check in here except perhaps on the med board which is still very useful and on which I could still be useful.
These are just a few brief, civil responses to Shar's post to Judy on 2000. I really don't want to offend Judy, because she has always seemed to be a kind and wonderful person on this board. And I am sorry this upheaval has upset her. I believe most of the "upheavelers" are gone, :), though more will surely come down the road.
Please keep in mind I was around before it took on this "tone" and I imagine there is a certain hour, a certain word that caused it to shift. I remember the wonderful and sometimes life-saving interchanges with people on social. There wasn't an air of fearing to post because your intention would be determined ahead of time or fear of posters bombasting Dr. Bob, which is I "think" what has upset Judy, and rightly so.
But to say something such as "I guess if someone isn't interested in supporting the people who are in pain, or their interest is superceded by political considerations, so be it" (Shar)
exmeplifies why I feel I must leave. I am interested in supportings others in pain and have done so on this site the whole time I've been here. But when one keeps hitting a brick wall with support, when the ability to communicate easily with those suffering is taken away, it becomes not only destructive for the "supportees" but also for the "supporters". Over the last few months, I have had my intentions questioned and my wording criticized more than the first year-and-a-half here, and I guess it wore me down.
"If posters leave because they don't think someone (or 20 someones) should have been blocked, obviously their commitment is not to the people who remain (you and me, and all the others)." (shar) - there's much more to it, than that. Most of us have left emails where we can be reached if someone needs help or to stay in touch, so this is not necessarily true.
Dr. Bob has clearly stated here that he is more concerned about the "supportees" than the "supporters", and of course we change roles constantly. But there cannot be a site without supporters. Admin is a place for both to express their concerns and help get them resolved. It's just that nothing's been getting resolved lately.
"They'll undoubtedly be missed by some, but if PSB gets back to the business of support etc., I think the grieving process will be short" (Shar) - wow. ouch.
"I am ready for the Psycho Babble power struggle to come to an end" (Shar) - it's not really a power-struggle. We all know Dr. Bob calls the shots. But without a place to express our concerns re: the running of the board, well... there's an option for Dr. Bob and those who feel compelled to stay. Get rid of the admin board. I feel certain you will lose many more people that way out of frustration, but Dr. Bob Could just accept e-mails instead. And of course, there is lost information for Dr. Bob re: the communication between posters without admin... but it's an option.
I meant to address other specifics so as not to target that one post, or poster, but this is getting far too long.
Dr. Bob's site is a good site. It has problems, though, which I'm guessing are mostly due to growth and an inability to handle it individually.
I certainly wish I had not blown my top that night, and ruined an almost perfect posting record of no swears. I also wish I had not returned out of curiosity and read Shar's post. Those arrows sure hit the mark.
It's mostly your board, old timers, and some new folks whom I hope will stick around. But it's not going to be the same as it was when it started, I feel certain of that. I have returned after saying I was leaving before because one Is drawn back here because it has a great cast of intelligent, caring people. But I have recognized that it has caused myself and my family more harm than good for many months and so I selfishly depart.
Good luck.
- KK
Posted by shar on July 10, 2002, at 18:13:59
In reply to May I post?If so, a response for Shar and others.., posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 13:10:19
>I remember the wonderful and sometimes life-saving interchanges with people on social. There wasn't an air of fearing to post....
>
Luckily, there are people who continue to post in warm and helpful ways, evidently without that fear...> But to say something such as "I guess if someone isn't interested in supporting the people who are in pain, or their interest is superceded by political considerations, so be it" (Shar)
>
I guess I don't see where my take on the situation, stated above, relates to your hitting a brick wall over the deficiencies you see in the board. It is a simple issue of priorities, imo...
>>when the ability to communicate easily with those suffering is taken away
>
I do not see how the ability to communicate with others has been taken away. If the priority is communicating, and one is blocked, one can learn how to communicate in a more acceptable manner. But that is only if the priority is to communicate with those who need help.
>
> "If posters leave because they don't think someone (or 20 someones) should have been blocked, obviously their commitment is not to the people who remain (you and me, and all the others)." (shar) - there's much more to it, than that.
>
I honestly believe you believe there is much more to it than that. I also believe people do what they want based on their own priorities. If one's priority is to be a part of communicating with people here who need help and are in pain, then that's what they will do. There may be a lot of 'he said, she said' kind of stuff, and ideas, and opinions flying around...but the bottom line is people will do what they want, some stay and some go. They make choices.
>
>Most of us have left emails where we can be reached if someone needs help or to stay in touch, so this is not necessarily true.
>
It is only true in the sense that someone who has a desire to participate in this *community* will do so. Leaving an email addy is different from what my post was about.>Admin is a place for both to express their concerns and help get them resolved. It's just that nothing's been getting resolved lately.
>
Well, this is where our thoughts and opinions diverge about the purpose of the admin board. It allows posters to give input, to talk about what they do and do not like, to make suggestions. It was never set up to "resolve" concerns based on majority rule or something. It is set up to bring concerns to the attention of Dr. Bob, which I believe people have been doing. What he does with the information, whether or not he changes something in regard to the concerns expressed...that's up to him. And, that's all that I ever felt was offered to posters via the admin board. I don't know how it began to be seen as a place where posters could come and change how the board is handled. It always has been up to Dr. Bob to make decisions. What has happened (imo) is that he has made his decisions, and posters continue to post frequently about why he is wrong, and the moral/ethical aspects of his unwillingness to do things a different way (my way, usually), and keep things pretty stirred up in general. Which is fine, if that's how they want to spend their time.
>
> "They'll undoubtedly be missed by some, but if PSB gets back to the business of support etc., I think the grieving process will be short" (Shar) - wow. ouch.
>
This is simply how I see the dynamic: back to basics; we have people here who are in serious pain and need support. If Person X leaves, sure Person X will be missed, but to someone in serious pain, what they need is support (which the missing person no longer gives in the context of this board). If I am on the verge of suicide, writing a post about 'how am I gonna make it,' it is unlikely I will spend a lot of time wishing Person X was here to reply. What I'd need and want would be to hear from the people who ARE here and ARE willing to talk to me, and help. Again, just my own take on the situation.
>
> "I am ready for the Psycho Babble power struggle to come to an end" (Shar) - it's not really a power-struggle. We all know Dr. Bob calls the shots. But without a place to express our concerns re: the running of the board, well...
>
This is one place that loses me. You say "without a place to express our concerns" but there is a place to express concerns about the way the board is run. The only thing I can figure is that maybe people want to express concerns in a certain way, and that's not acceptable. I am at a loss as to what the statement means 'without a place to express our concerns..' when there's a whole board devoted to it. And, I do see it as a power struggle--the dynamic of it is about who will/should/could change this board in a way that a group of people want. Now, is my take on it right? That's a whole nother question. Obviously, it feels right to me, but not right to you, and who is to really say? I fully expect that some people will disagree with me, and that's ok.>there's an option for Dr. Bob and those who feel compelled to stay. Get rid of the admin board. I feel certain you will lose many more people that way out of frustration, but Dr. Bob Could just accept e-mails instead. And of course, there is lost information for Dr. Bob re: the communication between posters without admin... but it's an option.
>
Again, I'm confused. I choose to stay (it doesn't *feel* like a compulsion, but then who knows?), and I also choose to make use of the admin board in its current incarnation. If people choose to leave for administrative reasons, or really for any reason, that is unfortunate. But, I don't see the need to modify the admin board because of it.> I meant to address other specifics so as not to target that one post, or poster, but this is getting far too long.
>
>It [the board] has problems, though, which I'm guessing are mostly due to growth and an inability to handle it individually.
>
Maybe so, it's really hard to say, and the perception of what problems exist would no doubt vary widely among posters.
> Those arrows sure hit the mark.
>
If I had my druthers, you would not take my opinions and apply them to yourself, unless you felt they 'fit.' My goal was to look at what I saw happening, and express my thoughts, feelings, and opinions about the situation, not about you.
I hope you will find a way someday to come here and have it be a good experience. You will certainly always be welcome as far as I'm concerned. And, there is value in having the historical knowledge of what has taken place, imo.This board is not the one I came to originally, either. In some ways it's better, some ways it's worse. But the bottom line is, for people who need help and are in pain and are having a hard time every day, I believe it's a good place to be, for me, for now.
Good Luck, KK.
Shar
Posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 19:45:51
In reply to Re: May I post?If so, a response for Shar and others.., posted by shar on July 10, 2002, at 18:13:59
>> Luckily, there are people who continue to post in warm and helpful ways, evidently without that fear...
-- true, but I was expressing my experience, which is really all I can do. I admitted to being selfish in my actions...
> > It is a simple issue of priorities, imo...
-- "I guess if someone isn't interested in supporting the people who are in pain" -- the problem, Shar is this comment. I wish I could support those in pain. And, I am in pain over this whole thing. You made an incorrect assumption... Priorites are not limited to 1 and 2 -- they are 1-1/2 to 100-1/2 and the decisions that go along with them are Very difficult.
> > I do not see how the ability to communicate with others has been taken away. If the priority is communicating, and one is blocked, one can learn how to communicate in a more acceptable manner. But that is only if the priority is to communicate with those who need help.
Do you have family, Shar? Other priorities? This is a rhetorical question b/c I can't continue to spend my energy here, but I wonder... try spending A LOT of time when you aren't feeling very good about YOURSELF responding to a very sensitive person, thinking you've done it as well as you can, followed Dr. Bob's very undefined "rules" as well as you can, been as well-intentioned as you can, and you get a PBC. Without any real explanation for what was wrong with your post. That was very harmful for me.
> > I honestly believe you believe there is much more to it than that.
-- Well, thank you.
> > Most of us have left emails where we can be reached if someone needs help or to stay in touch, so this is not necessarily true.
> It is only true in the sense that someone who has a desire to participate in this *community* will do so. Leaving an email addy is different from what my post was about.-- no it's not. you indicated that those leaving weren't concerned about those who are staying. we are. we need to leave for various reasons, for ourselves, but we also are concerned enough to leave our emails where they potentially Could be used or abused by others...
I'm not even going to touch the admin thing. If it's not what you all staying have wanted it to be, then I imagine you can change it. Or, again, Dr. Bob can just can it, and use his email for complaints, website problems, etc...>> Which is fine, if that's how they want to spend their time.
-- this is such a Great example of hidden incivility on this site... but if I were to be more forthright, I'd be blocked asap...
> > "They'll undoubtedly be missed by some, but if PSB gets back to the business of support etc., I think the grieving process will be short" (Shar) - wow. ouch.
> >
> This is simply how I see the dynamic: back to basics; we have people here who are in serious pain and need support. If Person X leaves, sure Person X will be missed, but to someone in serious pain, what they need is support (which the missing person no longer gives in the context of this board). If I am on the verge of suicide, writing a post about 'how am I gonna make it,' it is unlikely I will spend a lot of time wishing Person X was here to reply. What I'd need and want would be to hear from the people who ARE here and ARE willing to talk to me, and help. Again, just my own take on the situation.-- My take is that one has to get to know the people on the board before they help, so a revolving door approach is actually much less helpful for everyone. But that's where the site is going, so.... And how can I not take this personally? I'm one of the ones leaving. I'm glad you and I didn't have a "Close" relationship in any way...
-- Again, I'm not even going to touch the admin comments. Make it whatever you want it to be. All of you can keep silent when a new poster gets blocked for trying to understand an ongoing thread. Frankly, I think the "old timers" are given more slack than the middle children and the newbies - but then Dr. Bob would Really disagree with me there, I'm sure. :)
Whatever. It's your board again, with some good new folks. I hope you enjoy it and I sense that you are happy to lose folks like moi. ;)
- KK
Posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 20:04:38
In reply to boy, am i tired again :)..., posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 19:45:51
sorry, this Is it. re: "if that's the way they want to spend their time"...
I've been spending my time supporting people on this site since I came here. And have been So fortunate to find similar support from others along the way. ON all the boards...
I really think if you did a search you'd find that us "middle folks" made a Huge effort to welcome newcomers, having been in that position ourselves. We, or should I say "I" so as not to assume anything?, have not spent our time on the admin board hollowly, and have supported others on the other boards at the same time.
So, frankly Mr. Shankly, I do think this board is going to have a Great loss from the exit of the current people who have devoted themselves to the board for quite a while.
And now we'll be spending our time differently. :)
- KK
Posted by shar on July 10, 2002, at 21:41:38
In reply to the way I've been spending my time..., posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 20:04:38
I hope you leave knowing that your time here was obviously of great value to the people who felt supported by you.
Good Luck,
Shar
Posted by oracle on July 10, 2002, at 22:55:57
In reply to Re: May I post?If so, a response for Shar and others.., posted by shar on July 10, 2002, at 18:13:59
Well, this is where our thoughts and opinions diverge about the purpose of the admin board. It allows posters to give input, to talk about what they do and do not like, to
make suggestions. It was never set up to "resolve" concerns based on majority rule or something. It is set up to bring concerns to the attention of Dr. Bob, which I believe
people have been doing. What he does with the information, whether or not he changes something in regard to the concerns expressed...that's up to him. And, that's all that I
ever felt was offered to posters via the admin board. I don't know how it began to be seen as a place where posters could come and change how the board is handled. It
always has been up to Dr. Bob to make decisions. What has happened (imo) is that he has made his decisions, and posters continue to post frequently about why he is
wrong, and the moral/ethical aspects of his unwillingness to do things a different way (my way, usually), and keep things pretty stirred up in general. Which is fine, if that's
how they want to spend their time.Thanks you for stating my thoughts so clearly.
I think many have mistaken what this board (admin) is
for.I think it is very clear that as much as some want
this board to be run differently, it is Bob's boadr and
some things will not change. So why continue to argue.No one stops to consider the time Bob put into coding
this board. Perl is not simple as HTML. Who pays the hosting fees ?
Bob does, and this board seems to be hosted at Viero, so the fees are
in the hundereds of dollars a month.How would you feel if you worked for free, shelled out ~$250 out of pocket
and offered all this for free ? And then had people, without a clue
about the real mechanics, tell you it is all wrong ?I know what I would say !
Posted by oracle on July 10, 2002, at 23:35:33
In reply to the way I've been spending my time..., posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 20:04:38
Posted by kiddo on July 11, 2002, at 5:31:01
In reply to Re: May I post?If so, a response for Shar and others.., posted by oracle on July 10, 2002, at 22:55:57
> Well, this is where our thoughts and opinions diverge about the purpose of the admin board. It allows posters to give input, to talk about what they do and do not like, to make suggestions. It was never set up to "resolve" concerns based on majority rule or something. It is set up to bring concerns to the attention of Dr. Bob, which I believe people have been doing. What he does with the information, whether or not he changes something in regard to the concerns expressed...that's up to him. And, that's all that I ever felt was offered to posters via the admin board. I don't know how it began to be seen as a place where posters could come and change how the board is handled. It always has been up to Dr. Bob to make decisions. What has happened (imo) is that he has made his decisions, and posters continue to post frequently about why he is wrong, and the moral/ethical aspects of his unwillingness to do things a different way (my way, usually), and keep things pretty stirred up in general. Which is fine, if that's how they want to spend their time.
>Where else would people post their concerns regarding what they feel is wrong? Perhaps they'd like a better understanding of the 'goings on', so they feel like people and not guinea pigs. Some people feel that certain members are treated differently than others, and since the 'civility' rules are subject to change at any given time, maybe they'd just like a better understanding of what's acceptable and what isn't.
> Thanks you for stating my thoughts so clearly.
> I think many have mistaken what this board (admin) is
> for.
>
> I think it is very clear that as much as some want this board to be run differently, it is Bob's boadr and some things will not change. So why continue to argue.
>I thought Dr. Bob appreciated feedback, and in fact encourages it, as long as it's civil, of course.
> No one stops to consider the time Bob put into coding this board. Perl is not simple as HTML. Who pays the hosting fees ? Bob does, and this board seems to be hosted at Viero, so the fees are in the hundereds of dollars a month.
>
I have to disagree with this statement for the fact that I've seen posts of appreciation to Dr. Bob for having the site.>
> How would you feel if you worked for free, shelled out ~$250 out of pocket and offered all this for free ? And then had people, without a clue about the real mechanics, tell you it is all wrong ?
>I don't believe it's completely 'free' either...Dr. Bob performs research from the members/community. There have also been offers for help in maintaining the site, etc...some people *do* have a clue about the mechanics as well.
> I know what I would say !
As long as it's civil....
Just my opinion, of course and I may be completely wrong. You seem so familiar, is the St. James by chance?
Kiddo
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2002, at 9:00:37
In reply to the way I've been spending my time..., posted by krazy kat on July 10, 2002, at 20:04:38
This is the end of the thread.
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