![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by allisonm on April 21, 2002, at 23:35:00
I don't quite get why this 2000 board is such a huge deal. I'm an old timer. I was happy to see the new board. I didn't even know about all of the controversy until after I saw the board existed. I lurk mostly on PB. That's because the questions have been repeated so many times by so many new folks that there doesn't seem to be much to talk about anymore. I've seen lots of people come and go. I still post if I think I can contribute info about a particular drug I've taken, even tho I have answered the questions 10 times before.
I'm past the learning stage on a lot of this stuff. I've been there, done that. I don't have much new to add. Anything I do have to talk about, it often seems not to get answered anyway (another form of exclusion). I hardly know any of the names on the PB board anymore. It's been good to see names like Phil, Greg, Shar, Willow, Cass, Kazoo et al. once again. I used to know them when the board was small and when there was only one board, but I rarely see them now.
I don't really see what the big deal is on the new board. Everyone has the other same boards everyone has been using all along. If you look at the posts on 2000, they seem pretty much to be hellos and catching up messages between people who know each other and their hardships. You can see what they're saying. You can reply to them as you like on the other boards -- and obviously you have and are. Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads? Do you really want to catch up on Phil and Shar's latest cocktails? Is this so interesting to you and so very important to be a part of?
Sure, these messages could be put on PB or PSB, but they aren't. A lot of the names on 2000 I don't see on the other boards much. I wasn't even sure they were still coming to the boards. Trying to talk to them on the regular boards about old familiar topics from years past that no one now knows anything about is akin to trying to shout a conversation from across a crowded restaurant on a Friday night.
My opinion, since everyone here is free to express theirs and appears to be taking best advantage of it.
Posted by beardedlady on April 22, 2002, at 7:05:15
In reply to Gee whiz, posted by allisonm on April 21, 2002, at 23:35:00
Absolutely. (My post was called "Gosh"!) I'm NEW-ish, and I don't care. It's just not a big deal. We haven't LOST anything. Phil, Greg, Shar, et.al., still post here. We still post here. The whole argument is pretty ridiculous.
What is a bigger deal to me, however, is the creation of a 2001 board, which goes completely against the golden rule. Why would people who are complaining about exclusion want to post on their own exclusive board?
Humbug to it all.
bah beardy : (>
Posted by DinahM on April 22, 2002, at 8:25:55
In reply to Re: Gee whiz, posted by beardedlady on April 22, 2002, at 7:05:15
Ummm. Beardy?
I'm afraid that you misunderstood. The 2001 board was Dr. Bob's idea and his alone. I don't think anyone thinks it's the answer and I don't think anyone wants their own exclusive club.
Notice no one has posted (as of now), and notice the endorsement of CtrlAltDel's suggestion to ignore it.
Just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding.
Posted by beardedlady on April 22, 2002, at 8:54:17
In reply to Re: Gee whiz » beardedlady, posted by DinahM on April 22, 2002, at 8:25:55
Thanks. But I knew it was Dr. Bob's idea. I couldn't understand why he'd think that would appease people who were against exclusion.
beardy : )>
Posted by DinahM on April 22, 2002, at 9:00:49
In reply to I didn't misunderstand at all. » DinahM, posted by beardedlady on April 22, 2002, at 8:54:17
Thanks Beardy,
I do tend to miss nuances a lot, and seem to be rather more literal than usual right now. Thanks for explaining.
Posted by beardedlady on April 22, 2002, at 10:53:56
In reply to Re: I didn't misunderstand at all. » beardedlady, posted by DinahM on April 22, 2002, at 9:00:49
Posted by kiddo on April 22, 2002, at 13:17:24
In reply to Re: Gee whiz, posted by beardedlady on April 22, 2002, at 7:05:15
Posted by trouble on April 23, 2002, at 6:34:52
In reply to Gee whiz, posted by allisonm on April 21, 2002, at 23:35:00
Hi Allisonm,
I'm relatively new and we may not have talked much, I'm trouble, and have been reading this whole thread all night and unable to form an opinion about anything except dr. b is getting his paddlin all right.But your post did it for me, I don't know if it finally sunk in or what, but this was the light bulb. That's not to take away from anyone else's feelings, KK's posts were illuminating and Janelle's, Bekka's etc. Now after having read your words I understand much more, your last paragraph was really, really good, if you don't mind me saying.
Sorry you have felt lonely around here lately, I have a feeling that could change quick. Anyways, thanks again for taking the time to post your analysis.trouble
> I don't quite get why this 2000 board is such a huge deal. I'm an old timer. I was happy to see the new board. I didn't even know about all of the controversy until after I saw the board existed. I lurk mostly on PB. That's because the questions have been repeated so many times by so many new folks that there doesn't seem to be much to talk about anymore. I've seen lots of people come and go. I still post if I think I can contribute info about a particular drug I've taken, even tho I have answered the questions 10 times before.
>
> I'm past the learning stage on a lot of this stuff. I've been there, done that. I don't have much new to add. Anything I do have to talk about, it often seems not to get answered anyway (another form of exclusion). I hardly know any of the names on the PB board anymore. It's been good to see names like Phil, Greg, Shar, Willow, Cass, Kazoo et al. once again. I used to know them when the board was small and when there was only one board, but I rarely see them now.
>
> I don't really see what the big deal is on the new board. Everyone has the other same boards everyone has been using all along. If you look at the posts on 2000, they seem pretty much to be hellos and catching up messages between people who know each other and their hardships. You can see what they're saying. You can reply to them as you like on the other boards -- and obviously you have and are. Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads? Do you really want to catch up on Phil and Shar's latest cocktails? Is this so interesting to you and so very important to be a part of?
>
> Sure, these messages could be put on PB or PSB, but they aren't. A lot of the names on 2000 I don't see on the other boards much. I wasn't even sure they were still coming to the boards. Trying to talk to them on the regular boards about old familiar topics from years past that no one now knows anything about is akin to trying to shout a conversation from across a crowded restaurant on a Friday night.
>
> My opinion, since everyone here is free to express theirs and appears to be taking best advantage of it.
Posted by Anyuser on April 23, 2002, at 17:15:36
In reply to Gee whiz, posted by allisonm on April 21, 2002, at 23:35:00
"I don't quite get why this 2000 board is such a huge deal. I'm an old timer."
Well, then, maybe that explains why you don't get it.
Conversation among old friends is surely a good thing, but there are other venues for that. IMHO, Dr. Bob has chosen to facilitate such conversation for no particularly good reason, and the creation of exclusionary boards is detrimental to what I would view to be the more generally useful purposes of PsychoBabble.
"Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads?"
By the same token, if the 2000 topics are inherently uninteresting to outsiders, there wouldn't be any need to exclude outsiders. Furthermore, the 2000 board subject matter is not restricted to mere chit-chat, even though that's all it is for the moment.
At a minimum, the proliferation of all these sites makes visiting PsychoBabble a hassle.
The creation of an exclusive board implies that posters on that board are more knowledgeable, are wiser, and have more gravitas. Conversely, those excluded are comparatively ignorant and nutty. Maybe PsychoBabble should be re-named PsychoRabble.
This is certainly not a huge deal for me. I came to this site recently for information only, not a way of life. Even so, a newcomer is faced with a choice of mingling with second-class citizens on the original board or pressing one's nose against the window of the 2000 board to catch a glimpse of the elite exchanging bon mots.
On the other hand, the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer? Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2002, at 20:38:19
In reply to Re: Gee whiz » allisonm, posted by Anyuser on April 23, 2002, at 17:15:36
> > I don't quite get why this 2000 board is such a huge deal. I'm an old timer.
>
> Well, then, maybe that explains why you don't get it.> the 2000 board subject matter is not restricted to mere chit-chat, even though that's all it is for the moment.
> a newcomer is faced with a choice of mingling with second-class citizens on the original board or pressing one's nose against the window of the 2000 board to catch a glimpse of the elite exchanging bon mots.
>
> the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer? Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?Please don't be sarcastic or put others down.
Bob
Posted by Phil on April 23, 2002, at 21:56:01
In reply to Re: Gee whiz » allisonm, posted by Anyuser on April 23, 2002, at 17:15:36
If the mere existence of this board makes you feel like a second class citizen, then you've got an INSIDE problem to work on. You can disagree all you want but if it makes so many people feel 'lesser than' on the inside, then the board isn't your problem. I don't count anyone on any of these boards second class. Not when I know we are all fighting the same black dog.
Do we think we're better because we've been here longer, hell no! The well people leave..they're the ones you should be pissed at. We have a no easier time with this disease than someone who joined today. We've just been here longer, meds haven't changed that drastically, I'm a little better lately but this past year has been one of my worst. Does being an OT here boost my self-esteem when I didn't get to work for two days last week just because I was d o w n. Nope.
Maybe it could be because, with this disease, knowing the same people for several years and hearing their hopes and seeing them fall, then I fall and go nuts, but there is one big reward for being an oldtimer...we are still here, you know, like alive. That tends to make you very close to people. You care. Especially if you have shared losses of friends or saw someone stop posting and they had serious chronic problems for months beforehand. Are they alive? 7 come 11, it's 50/50.
Everyone that sticks around as long as we have, in my opinion, should be able to gain entrance
to the club as soon as that amount of time passes.Their real reward? They are still alive!
I think this board has saved a life or two and gives us a very unique opportunity. We get to talk to and become friends with so many others fighting the same stinkin stigma. No wonder we're all bitter sometimes. Who in the heck am I talking to. I got carried away.
__________________________________________________
"Black bird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arrive."
Posted by christophrejmc on April 23, 2002, at 22:17:18
In reply to Re: please be civil » Anyuser, posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2002, at 20:38:19
> Please don't be sarcastic or put others down.
>
> Bob...you can't be serious.
Posted by Zo on April 23, 2002, at 23:10:48
In reply to Gee whiz, posted by allisonm on April 21, 2002, at 23:35:00
Which post is SARCASM, and therefore worthy of a PBC?
"Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads? Do you really want to catch up on Phil and Shar's latest cocktails? Is this so interesting to you and so very important to be a part of?"
Or it's response:
"On the other hand, the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer? Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?"
BING! Time's up. The correct answer is: NEITHER!
(I can't stand it anymore) Zo
Posted by allisonm on April 23, 2002, at 23:51:17
In reply to Re: Gee whiz » allisonm, posted by Anyuser on April 23, 2002, at 17:15:36
> "I don't quite get why this 2000 board is such a huge deal. I'm an old timer."
>
> Well, then, maybe that explains why you don't get it.<Anyuser, why the animosity?
> Conversation among old friends is surely a good thing, but there are other venues for that.<<What are your constructive suggestions for those people who have met and formed longterm friendships on this board? Why is this place inappropriate?
> IMHO, Dr. Bob has chosen to facilitate such conversation for no particularly good reason<Or for a reason that you do not care to consider because you have not been in a similar situation -- yet.
>>and the creation of exclusionary boards is detrimental to what I would view to be the more generally useful purposes of PsychoBabble<<No one is making you visit the new board. If you were happy with the way the board set-up was, why not continue your patterns? What has been taken away from you?
> "Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads?"
>
>> By the same token, if the 2000 topics are inherently uninteresting to outsiders, there wouldn't be any need to exclude outsiders. Furthermore, the 2000 board subject matter is not restricted to mere chit-chat, even though that's all it is for the moment.<<Your tone in that last sentence has an ominous feeling to it, for some reason. Because the board matter is not restricted to chit-chat? Do you see danger there? Do you really feel that you have no opportunity to respond to postings there? It's pretty apparent that you are responding to the board here, and you have lots of company.
> At a minimum, the proliferation of all these sites makes visiting PsychoBabble a hassle.<<As mentioned, no one is making you visit the 2000 board.
> The creation of an exclusive board implies that posters on that board are more knowledgeable, are wiser, and have more gravitas.<<
That is your perception. We may have more experience in watching the board and its ups and downs over time. However, we're no more knowledgeable or wise than anyone else. And I would think that the dearth of OT names on the other boards over the last few years shows there is no gravitas. We are pretty much invisible, or were until now.
>>Conversely, those excluded are comparatively ignorant and nutty.<<
Also, your perception. I read a quote somewhere that I have never forgotten: "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
>> This is certainly not a huge deal for me.<<Obviously it is, else you wouldn't be attacking someone you don't know and who had nothing to do with the creation of the board, but just happens to have the opinion that it's a nice addition because SHE has felt excluded from the regular boards for some time.
>>I came to this site recently for information only, not a way of life. Even so, a newcomer is faced with a choice of mingling with second-class citizens on the original board or pressing one's nose against the window of the 2000 board to catch a glimpse of the elite exchanging bon mots.<<
Again, second-class is your perception. Just looking at the volume on the regular boards, I would conclude that it is you and the others who have the gravitas. If you are looking for information, which is what you say you came for, I think you will find it on PB, where everyone from every board generally contributes, and through Dr. Bob's links. I don't see that there have been any changes there with the addition of the 2000 board.
>> On the other hand, the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer?<<
Please explain: how is that a really scary thing -- given that you think that the people who have contributed to this board for a number of years know nothing and are not worth asking advice from?
>>Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?<<
I would because I once knew these people, but, like me, they have been pretty much swept aside by the tidalwave of new members (my perception, Anyuser).
Posted by allisonm on April 24, 2002, at 0:05:54
In reply to POP QUIZ » allisonm, posted by Zo on April 23, 2002, at 23:10:48
> Which post is SARCASM, and therefore worthy of a PBC?
>
> "Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads? Do you really want to catch up on Phil and Shar's latest cocktails? Is this so interesting to you and so very important to be a part of?"
>
> Or it's response:
>
> "On the other hand, the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer? Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?"
>
> BING! Time's up. The correct answer is: NEITHER!
>
> (I can't stand it anymore) ZoI'm not sure why you are asking me, Zo. I don't make those calls.
Posted by allisonm on April 24, 2002, at 0:25:56
In reply to turn on your love light » allisonm, posted by trouble on April 23, 2002, at 6:34:52
Hi, trouble,
Thanks for reading and cinsidering my post.
I'm sorry you were blocked.
I have often felt the same way (wanting to tell people to grow up). I didn't think the way you phrased it was offensive, but I guess everyone has a different take on things.Take care and come back.
I hope we can talk more later.
Posted by Zo on April 24, 2002, at 0:28:48
In reply to Re: please be civil » Anyuser, posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2002, at 20:38:19
Which post is SARCASM, and therefore worthy of a PBC?
"Are the 2000 topics of such burning interest that it's imperative to be able to contribute to the threads? Do you really want to catch up on Phil and Shar's latest cocktails? Is this so interesting to you and so very important to be a part of?"
Or its response:
"On the other hand, the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer? Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?"
BING! Time's up. The correct answer is: NEITHER!
(I can't stand it anymore) Zo
Posted by mist on April 24, 2002, at 1:17:05
In reply to Re: Gee whiz » Anyuser, posted by allisonm on April 23, 2002, at 23:51:17
> but just happens to have the opinion that it's a nice addition because SHE has felt excluded from the regular boards for some time.
>
> >>Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?<<
>
> I would because I once knew these people, but, like me, they have been pretty much swept aside by the tidalwave of new members (my perception, Anyuser).
I don't entirely understand this. I started posting in 2000 (and read many of the archives before I posted) and am therefore technically an old-timer too. It seems like a lot of the old-timers feel they were somehow pushed out by newer people but I don't recall what ocurred or when.The description of newcomers as a tidal wave that pushed out old posters particularly puzzles me. Again, I didn't see signs of anyone being "pushed" out or anything I'd describe as a tidal wave—just new people joining. Even though I've been on the boards for awhile, either reading or posting, I find that new people have something of equal, if sometimes different, value to offer as the old timers. They only further enrich the boards. In fact, I wish more new people would join.
My impression is there might have been some problem posters along the way but they were a tiny minority and they were dealt with. In fact, I remember almost nothing about them because they didn't seem to have a huge impact. I never noticed that they interfered with others' ability to post.
I don't see any difference between the old timers who were posting when I started and the newer ones. We're all people. People facing difficult problems. Everyone is here looking for basically the same thing—support. And no one is trying to stop anyone else from posting—except on the 2000 board.
I understand that some posters became friends and were part of a close circle. That's great, but this site is still about the larger community. To me it's obvious that setting up a board with a "keep out" sign on it will have ramifications in a support community like this. That it will cause rifts. It's human nature. I believe it's important to be sensitive to that.
-mist
Posted by beardedlady on April 24, 2002, at 5:16:54
In reply to POP QUIZ (sorry Allison) » Dr. Bob, posted by Zo on April 24, 2002, at 0:28:48
When I told Dr. Bob he was being sarcastic with me, he told me he was being honest. Why aren't these called "honesty"?
beardy : (>
Posted by DinahM on April 24, 2002, at 7:08:30
In reply to not clear what led to this, posted by mist on April 24, 2002, at 1:17:05
Thanks mist. I really loved your post.
Somehow the justification for the new reunion board has shifted from wanting to have a place to catch up with people who haven't been around any more to wanting to get away from the flood of unsupportive, etc. newcomers who push the oldtimers out.
I have nothing against the people who posted on the 2000 board. Some of them are my friends, and I know that they are not trying to make anyone feel left out. My objections have always been philosophical.
But the latest turn in the argument saddens me. It seems to lump all newcomers together as a teeming mass of unsupportive rabble. Just my perception based on the fact that the "old-timers" seem to want to get away from us. I'm not singling anyone out here. But reading a few of the latest posts has made me feel like some sort of horrid creature - a newcomer.
If Judy and Tina feel safe on the new board, I'm happy for them. I wish I had somewhere on this board to feel safe. Because I don't think it's newcomers that make this place unsafe. And I don't think it's oldtimers. I think it is individual posters.
I wouldn't join the 2001 board because the dear friends I made in 2002 wouldn't be welcome there. And the dear friends I have yet to make in 2002 and 2003 wouldn't be welcome there. And the dear friends who were posting in 2000 wouln't be welcome there. No amount of benefit would be worth knowing that to me. But that's just me. I have this thing about fairness.
But my opinions and your opinions aside, is it really fair to paint all newcomers with the same brush? We're not all so bad you know. I know there are people on the board who like me and people who don't. But I don't think they gravitate towards me by the year I joined.
Could we please re-change the direction of this conversation?
Posted by allisonm on April 24, 2002, at 7:35:36
In reply to not clear what led to this, posted by mist on April 24, 2002, at 1:17:05
Hi, Mist.
It was late. I was tired. At the time it did feel like a tidal wave. I have been posting since around 1998. Like you, I have seen a lot over this time. Remember BBob et al? Remember when a lot of people started feeling unsafe because whoever it was who would say hurtful things, get blocked, then come back in another form, would email individuals with very hurtful messages? Remember what happened to Cam? People stopped routinely identifying their email addresses so that others would write them directly. A lot of people left and never came back.
Some went to another board called A Safe Haven, but many didn't.On PB, it was too dangerous to post one's feelings or anything personal. The tone of the board went from mostly cohesive and supportive, to what felt to me like a minefield. Over time, I have visited here and there. So many people started posting that it got to a point where I didn't recognize anyone's name anymore. Once in awhile you'll see Noa, SLS, Greg, Shar (I think). Sure, everything has to change, and things don't always change for the better. IMO, it's not especially supportive anymore, except perhaps for the newer ones who didn't go through the other stuff. Remember a time when there were no "please be civil" messages? I remember when Bob had to start doing that.
So yea, the board has changed. Maybe excluded isn't the right word. Maybe it should be alienated.
Some of us formed close friendships before the anonymous personal attacks and loss of trust. Now I am seeing a few of them back on this 2000 board. I've not seen some of them in a long time. I like talking to them because a lot of them don't post much or at all on the regular boards anymore because of a large rift that you might not be seeing. It was a bigger deal than I think you recall. To me, the current boards still are not safe places and never will be again (think back about Anyuser's introductory point in "Gee whiz<allisonm." That kind of crap didn't happen. People were civil, even if they disagreed). Seeing the few old timers on the 2000 board gives me an opportunity to reconnect to people who were here back when anyone could talk, everyone got along for the most part, and it was safe.
Posted by DinahM on April 24, 2002, at 7:47:47
In reply to Re: not clear what led to this » mist, posted by allisonm on April 24, 2002, at 7:35:36
I've read the archives and I do know about, well I don't want to name any names. That's why I have so much respect for you who stuck around. I know I wouldn't have.
But Allison, if you'll check the list of names that are eligible for posting on 2000, you'll find the names of some of the posters you speak of. Would you feel so safe if they heard of the reunion board and came back?
Why are the list of posters eligible for the 2000 board inherently safer than, oh I could name many newer posters so I won't name any - who are not eligible for the new board.
Shifting the focus of the new board as a place to be safe from the PSB posters disturbs me and saddens me. It is the type of division that so many worried about at the creation of this board.
I wish you much safety and happiness on the new board.
Posted by allisonm on April 24, 2002, at 8:24:34
In reply to Re: not clear what led to this » allisonm, posted by DinahM on April 24, 2002, at 7:47:47
This 2000 board wasn't my idea. I just stumbled onto it and was grateful to Dr. Bob for thinking about the old members.
Ya know, we can debate this subject and project what could happen to it to the nth degree. I have stated my feelings and have tried to explain why I feel such. No one gets it, and I am out of words. Obviously, I am in a minuscule minority on this issue. There has not been a place for me on these boards for a long time. Stupid me for thinking there might be. So long.
Posted by DinahM on April 24, 2002, at 8:31:18
In reply to Re: not clear what led to this » DinahM, posted by allisonm on April 24, 2002, at 8:24:34
Now you see, Allison, we have a lot in common :) I never meant my post as an attack or criticism of you, just as an attempt to understand why you would feel safe on a board that includes the very posters you were talking about, while not feeling safe with the rest of us. No need to say "so long" or be hurt. It was just a dialogue. Perhaps the tone of my post was not clear, but the tone it was written in was one of reflection. A very quiet tone. Speaking as one who does understand, in a way. I just don't understand parts of it. I do understand wanting to be safe.
Never meant to offend.
Posted by tina on April 24, 2002, at 9:03:28
In reply to Re: Gee whiz » allisonm, posted by Anyuser on April 23, 2002, at 17:15:36
> On the other hand, the really scary thing is the mere existence of a voluntary and exclusive club of "old timers." Why would one seek information or advice from an old timer? Who on earth would want to belong to such a club?
Then what was your point??
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.