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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jay2112 on November 11, 2020, at 8:59:22
"Youre a Completely Different Person at 14 and 77, the Longest-Running Personality Study Ever Has Found"
Look at a photo of yourself as a teenager and, mistaken fashion choices aside, its likely you see traces of the same person with the same personality quirks as you are today. But whether or not you truly are the same person over a lifetimeand what that notion of personhood even meansis the subject of ongoing philosophical and psychology debate.The longest personality study of all time, published in 2016 in Psychology and Aging and highlighted by the British Psychological Society, suggests that over the course of a lifetime, just as your physical appearance changes and your cells are constantly replaced, your personality is also transformed beyond recognition.
The study begins with data from a 1950 survey of 1,208 14-year-olds in Scotland. Teachers were asked to use six questionnaires to rate the teenagers on six personality traits: self-confidence, perseverance, stability of moods, conscientiousness, originality, and desire to learn. Together, the results from these questionnaires were amalgamated into a rating for one trait, which was defined as dependability. More than six decades later, researchers tracked down 635 of the participants, and 174 agreed to repeat testing.
This time, aged 77 years old, the participants rated themselves on the six personality traits, and also nominated a close friend or relative to do the same. Overall, there was not much overlap from the questionnaires taken 63 years earlier. Correlations suggested no significant stability of any of the 6 characteristics or their underlying factor, dependability, over the 63-year interval, wrote the researchers. We hypothesized that we would find evidence of personality stability over an even longer period of 63 years, but our correlations did not support this hypothesis, they later added.
The findings were a surprise to researchers because previous personality studies, over shorter periods of time, seemed to show consistency. Studies over several decades, focusing on participants from childhood to middle age, or from middle age to older age, showed stable personality traits. But the most recent study, covering the longest period, suggests that personality stability is disrupted over time. The longer the interval between two assessments of personality, the weaker the relationship between the two tends to be, the researchers write. Our results suggest that, when the interval is increased to as much as 63 years, there is hardly any relationship at all.
Perhaps those who had impulsive character flaws as a teenager would be grateful that certain personality traits might even out later in life. But its disconcerting to think that your entire personality is transformed.
Personality refers to an individuals characteristic patterns of thought, emotion, and behavior, together with the psychological mechanismshidden or notbehind those patterns, note the authors, quoting psychology professor David Funders definition.
If your patterns of thought, emotions, and behavior so drastically alter over the decades, can you truly be considered the same person in old age as you were as a teenager? This question ties in with broader theories about the nature of the self. For example, there is growing neuroscience research that supports the ancient Buddhist belief that our notion of a stable self is nothing more than an illusion.
Perhaps this wont surprise you if youve had the experience of running into a very old friend from school, and found a completely different person from the child you remembered. This research suggests that, as the decades go by, your own younger self could be similarly unrecognizable. "
Posted by undopaminergic on November 11, 2020, at 12:47:42
In reply to 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by jay2112 on November 11, 2020, at 8:59:22
On that topic, my psychosis in the end of 2009 was the starting point of radical changes in terms of personality. In my mind, these were positive and welcome changes, but I'm not sure others would agree.
For example, I was pretty much a materialist computer and neuroscience geek, and now I'm spiritual and into Freudian psychology. I've not totally given up on medications to treat my conditions, but I now believe psychodynamic interventions really *can* make a difference, and should be the main approach.
By the way, I use the term psychodynamic not as a synonym of "psychoanalytic", but as a counterpart to "pharmacodynamic".
-undopaminergic
Posted by jay2112 on November 15, 2020, at 14:45:55
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by undopaminergic on November 11, 2020, at 12:47:42
> On that topic, my psychosis in the end of 2009 was the starting point of radical changes in terms of personality. In my mind, these were positive and welcome changes, but I'm not sure others would agree.
>
> For example, I was pretty much a materialist computer and neuroscience geek, and now I'm spiritual and into Freudian psychology. I've not totally given up on medications to treat my conditions, but I now believe psychodynamic interventions really *can* make a difference, and should be the main approach.
>
> By the way, I use the term psychodynamic not as a synonym of "psychoanalytic", but as a counterpart to "pharmacodynamic".
>
> -undopaminergic
>Well, I think there is goodness to be had from all versions of talk-therapy (Well, except the "quacky" ones..like some of the offshoot's of Primal Scream). But, just getting someone to open up to, and someone to acknowledge your pain, can be very helpful. This has actually been proven, especially if you train someone in basic listening skills.
I never realized I had problems with psychosis until the breaking point came 20 years into my mental health treatment, with the distress from losing a couple of deeply important people in my life being too much to handle. I also think that you have to weigh in the whole med treatment vs non-treatment thing, especially with psychosis, and what your symptoms are like. I think my power consumption of antidepressants is what built my 'perfect storm' setting for my psychosis.
Jay
Posted by sigismund on November 15, 2020, at 20:10:27
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » undopaminergic, posted by jay2112 on November 15, 2020, at 14:45:55
>I think my power consumption of antidepressants is what built my 'perfect storm' setting for my psychosis.
Very interesting, Jay. Would you like to say more about that?
Posted by Lamdage22 on November 16, 2020, at 4:31:29
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » undopaminergic, posted by jay2112 on November 15, 2020, at 14:45:55
Me too, it kind of started after 3 weeks into a Nardil trial. At first the changes were seen as positive. A lot of repressed emotions entered my mind. Then later it was not positive anymore to say the least. I am on the hefty regimen today probably because of my numerous Nardil (and one Parnate) trials. Psychosis gave me a way of venting my frustrations, which I couldn't in my normal state. But it got out of hand unfortunately. I did have really good times on Nardil, too, which made it hard to accept it was doing more bad than good.
Neuroleptics are a bitch to withdraw. I am doing it so slowly that I may never succeed. I just hope to cut daytime Seroquel out for the most part so I am not so cognitively impaired anymore.
It really doesn't help with studying.
> I think my power consumption of antidepressants is what built my 'perfect storm' setting for my psychosis.
Posted by undopaminergic on November 16, 2020, at 4:58:02
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by Lamdage22 on November 16, 2020, at 4:31:29
>
> Neuroleptics are a bitch to withdraw.
>How so? Do you mean psychosis comes back, or do you mean there are withdrawal symptoms?
I've quit both neuroleptics and SSRIs cold turkey several times with no problems.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on November 16, 2020, at 5:02:36
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by undopaminergic on November 16, 2020, at 4:58:02
Hmm not real psychosis but feelings and thoughts overwhelm me if I withdraw too quickly. It usually leads to taking more than before. So I have to go really slowly, otherwise I end up on a higher dosage than before. I am more sensitive than others for sure with stuff like that.
> > Neuroleptics are a bitch to withdraw.
> >
>
> How so? Do you mean psychosis comes back, or do you mean there are withdrawal symptoms?
>
> I've quit both neuroleptics and SSRIs cold turkey several times with no problems.
>
> -undopaminergic
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on November 16, 2020, at 5:05:01
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by Lamdage22 on November 16, 2020, at 5:02:36
I'd probably call it withdrawal symptoms, yeah. Because if I give it time, it usually works out.
Posted by jay2112 on November 16, 2020, at 17:38:36
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » jay2112, posted by sigismund on November 15, 2020, at 20:10:27
> >I think my power consumption of antidepressants is what built my 'perfect storm' setting for my psychosis.
>
> Very interesting, Jay. Would you like to say more about that?Hey thanx...ya sure. I was diagnosed with BP2 years ago, after a way too high dose of Paxil. But, I found the then mood-stabilizers, especially
Depakote/Epival, very sorely lacking. And lithium, especially in the dose given me, just made me feel like I was in a constant panic attack. I have BP2 with agoraphobia and horrid anxiety. Yes, I am one messed up man..lol. So, long story short, I made it my mission to try almost every antidepressant out there, and my pdoc agreed, as he had trust in me.So, in 2013-2014, I lost both my parents, was out of a job, and had little options but disability. During my parent's deaths, I was crushed, and cranked on the antidepressants, looking for relief, only this time I ended up in the ER, and I was terrified, certain they were going to kill me. They then gave me a nice dose of risperdal by injection, and a small amount of haldol. That was when I *really* discovered relief. I got a prescription for the risperdal, and I slept like a baby. But, my depression and my very intense ADD problem (I had a ton of developmental disorders as a child, way back in the 1970's, before Ritalin..I couldn't focus to do Math, Reading comprehension, Spelling..) were still not addressed. The ADD led to many social and work problems...I got fired so many times because I was considered 'lazy', and couldn't focus to do basic tasks. Soooo..my pdoc but me on a low dose of Dexedrine, then almost identical, Vyvanse..carefully monitoring for psychosis. Stimulants seem more tolerable than antidepressants...oddly enough. But, the synergistic balance of Risperdal, plus now Latuda, and Vyvanse, keep me even keel. (Oh, and Lyrica for generalized anxiety). Weird, huh? lol.
But, I have a great pdoc, who strongly believes symptom refief, rather than diagnosis, is most important..thank Gawd!!
So, not sure is that answers your question...I know I extrapolate on many things..but, that is my story. I strongly hope it can give other's hope. (Oh, I also do outreach work in the community with other's with addiction and mental health issues...and that has really, really lifted me as well, out of myself, and my despair.) And...I am also on Suboxone.
Jay
Posted by undopaminergic on November 17, 2020, at 0:24:51
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » sigismund, posted by jay2112 on November 16, 2020, at 17:38:36
> And...I am also on Suboxone.
>As matter of fact, buprenorphine (Subutex, Suboxone) is relevant to mention more directly in the context of the treatment of depression and ADD. Its combination with methylphenidate (Concerta, Ritalin) is the best treatment I've tried for depressive apathy and the working memory problem of ADHD-PI.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 3, 2020, at 9:57:51
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » undopaminergic, posted by jay2112 on November 15, 2020, at 14:45:55
My doc wont even let me on Wellbutrin. I too am prone to psychosis. Maybe it works sometimes and sometimes it doesnt? In terms of my wellbeing, there is more to lose than to win. Didnt change meds in 4 years! Alternative treatments improved me greatly. I guess we all want to extrapolate our own experiences to people in general!
Posted by jay2112 on December 21, 2020, at 22:28:24
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by Lamdage22 on December 3, 2020, at 9:57:51
> My doc wont even let me on Wellbutrin. I too am prone to psychosis. Maybe it works sometimes and sometimes it doesnt? In terms of my wellbeing, there is more to lose than to win. Didnt change meds in 4 years! Alternative treatments improved me greatly. I guess we all want to extrapolate our own experiences to people in general!
When I first started psych meds, it was in 1994..the summer (when OJ drove his white jeep down the highway, with the 'funny' multi-parted, choreographed police 'chase'..ugghh). But, my family doc started me on 10mgs of amytriptaline and .5mg's of lorazepam 3x a day. This was after a year or so of major dark, suicidal thinking. I HONESTLY thought, the first med I would take would 'cure' me..and I didn't have a problem if I had to take it forever!
Well, here we are, almost 30 years later. I have been on max doses of most drugs...no go. All varieties. At first, I had illusions that these drugs would make me 100 percent stress free, that I would be 'normal' (like, sleep 8 hours a night...feel like Superman..lol)..boy, was I in for a surprise!! LOL. And this was waaaayy before every 1 in 3 was taking medication..hehh.
So, my 'stable self' never really became 'stable'. Heh. I am SOOO afraid of the outside world...oh boy.I have to pop about 6mg of clonazepam just to go out. No life, no love....I CLING to hope...I live alone in a basement 'cell'...my 51st birthday, tomorrow, and...crap....
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 22, 2020, at 0:00:17
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » Lamdage22, posted by jay2112 on December 21, 2020, at 22:28:24
I too was very naive about the mental health system and life in general. Have you ever had blood tests to measure your nutrients? Made a world of a difference for me.
> When I first started psych meds, it was in 1994..the summer (when OJ drove his white jeep down the highway, with the 'funny' multi-parted, choreographed police 'chase'..ugghh). But, my family doc started me on 10mgs of amytriptaline and .5mg's of lorazepam 3x a day. This was after a year or so of major dark, suicidal thinking. I HONESTLY thought, the first med I would take would 'cure' me..and I didn't have a problem if I had to take it forever!
>
> Well, here we are, almost 30 years later. I have been on max doses of most drugs...no go. All varieties. At first, I had illusions that these drugs would make me 100 percent stress free, that I would be 'normal' (like, sleep 8 hours a night...feel like Superman..lol)..boy, was I in for a surprise!! LOL. And this was waaaayy before every 1 in 3 was taking medication..hehh.
>
> So, my 'stable self' never really became 'stable'. Heh. I am SOOO afraid of the outside world...oh boy.I have to pop about 6mg of clonazepam just to go out. No life, no love....I CLING to hope...I live alone in a basement 'cell'...my 51st birthday, tomorrow, and...crap....
>
>
Posted by undopaminergic on December 22, 2020, at 1:04:52
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion. » Lamdage22, posted by jay2112 on December 21, 2020, at 22:28:24
>
> When I first started psych meds, it was in 1994..I started in the early 2000s.
> I HONESTLY thought, the first med I would take would 'cure' me..and I didn't have a problem if I had to take it forever!
>Yeah, me too. Paroxetine (Seroxat, Paxil) was my first.
> Well, here we are, almost 30 years later. I have been on max doses of most drugs...no go.
>Yes, me too again.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 22, 2020, at 1:12:07
In reply to Re: 'Stable Self' an illussion., posted by undopaminergic on December 22, 2020, at 1:04:52
Yeah, we really need all new meds urgently. No more me too stuff! I think we will see improvements, it is not a question of if but of when. Hang in there guys, and maybe consider the possibility that you are lacking certain nutrients. For me it was B12, Iron, D3 and Iodine.
I am not going for me too stuff because I am not impressed by the current meds.
This is the end of the thread.
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