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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on December 23, 2019, at 16:54:44
Is it therapeutic to feel high from time to time?
In psychiatry, a "high" is seen as something to be avoided. I'm not talking about high all the time. However, when I was well, I remember always feeling a high (20-30min) at least once a day. Something to wake up for.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on December 23, 2019, at 22:39:34
In reply to Is a 'high' theraputic?, posted by linkadge on December 23, 2019, at 16:54:44
Some people came to visit with a little kid. He might have been 3? He went outside in the mornings, rolled around on the grass, looked up at the sky and the trees and said with feeling, 'I Love it! I love it!'
That is a natural healthy response to the wonder of it all.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 24, 2019, at 7:30:32
In reply to Is a 'high' theraputic?, posted by linkadge on December 23, 2019, at 16:54:44
> Is it therapeutic to feel high from time to time?
>
> In psychiatry, a "high" is seen as something to be avoided. I'm not talking about high all the time. However, when I was well, I remember always feeling a high (20-30min) at least once a day. Something to wake up for.
>
> LinkadgeI'm sorry I didn't have that (before I became depressed), but sure I felt better and worse at times and that is entirely natural and healthy.
You don't seem to be talking about drugs, but after a while on stimulants (cocaine-like), I sometimes felt better for some time after cessation.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on December 24, 2019, at 7:53:55
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » linkadge, posted by undopaminergic on December 24, 2019, at 7:30:32
So for example, on mood stabilizers I almost never feel high. Lithium seems to completely prevent those moments of "I FEEL GREAT!!".
I've wondered if those moments (even if short lived) are important for recovery. Perhaps they are the sign of a healthy reward system, giving a reason for both being alive and the belief that there is reward / pleasure to be had in life.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on December 24, 2019, at 8:24:32
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2019, at 7:53:55
> So for example, on mood stabilizers I almost never feel high. Lithium seems to completely prevent those moments of "I FEEL GREAT!!".
>
> I've wondered if those moments (even if short lived) are important for recovery. Perhaps they are the sign of a healthy reward system, giving a reason for both being alive and the belief that there is reward / pleasure to be had in life.
>
> Linkadge
>I don't know. It is at least normal to feel better or worse, but perhaps not if you feel it without reason.
I actually had a small episode of feeling better when I took low dose lithium, in the form of the orotate salt. My understanding is that the orotate is much better absorbed.
I agree that it is important to feel good (not necessarily high) at times, because it gives you hope.
-undopaminergic
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2019, at 23:14:55
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » linkadge, posted by undopaminergic on December 24, 2019, at 8:24:32
i went to a psyhciatrist a clinic in 2009, that was during that time i was off dexedrine, he loaded me with nuerotonin, xanax xr, and was first doctor to put me on nuvigil, i was on 800mg of nuerontin and 4mg xanax xr, then geodon and zyprexa at high doses, it's kinda wierd because that itme was a hard time being ripped off stimulant, but when i went ot this doctor i was loaded with benzo and nuerloptic meds, i felt kinda smooth and chill all the time, but not considering that being a high. It was a workshop therapy clinic, we met at 8am, had diffrent therapy messesions and it lasted till 4pm. My mom had alot of money back then, and instead of going to psych, i went to see clinic, but it was alot of money, they were pharma doctors, they everything the big pharma companies where paying them, and ... i don't want to say how much my mom paid but it was over 10,000. Then in way i regreted because that was alot of savings, and this doctor just threw you on it, and he discharged me. clinic loved money income, yum yum greedy pharma man psyhch, had advertisements in every room for meds to ask about
Posted by sigismund on December 25, 2019, at 16:16:07
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2019, at 7:53:55
>I've wondered if those moments (even if short lived) are important for recovery.
Leonard Cohen said that one day he was sitting at his window and saw the sun reflected off a car bumper bar, and thought it was beautiful and had some nice feeling. Then he thought that 'normal people' must feel like that often enough. He wondered if losing a few neurons through age had been good for him.
Posted by sigismund on December 25, 2019, at 16:20:47
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » linkadge, posted by undopaminergic on December 24, 2019, at 8:24:32
>it is important to feel good (not necessarily high) at times, because it gives you hope.
We have a new little puppy around. He certainly feels a lot of happiness. They derive happiness from things that do not come so easily to people.....snuggling up, eating, playing etc.
Posted by beckett2 on December 26, 2019, at 23:11:44
In reply to Is a 'high' theraputic?, posted by linkadge on December 23, 2019, at 16:54:44
> Is it therapeutic to feel high from time to time?
>
> In psychiatry, a "high" is seen as something to be avoided. I'm not talking about high all the time. However, when I was well, I remember always feeling a high (20-30min) at least once a day. Something to wake up for.
>
> LinkadgeThis is an interesting question. In the States, reporting that a medication feels good is to be absolutely avoided w/ most practitioners. For example, when treating a chronic pain condition, I told my doctor at the time that tramadol was mood positive. (In the context of most medications are wretched things to be endured.) He did not like this!
Conversely, AP's make me feel so out of it and very 'high'. They have been pushed on me, and I don't like them. The categories of virtuous and illicit medication are ironic. There was a stink here that prisoners were 'abusing' Seroquel. So that was taken away. We are a puritan lot.
Getting into a creative zone is a relief. Laughing w a friend until my stomach hurts is beautiful. They leave an afterglow of satisfaction that can take me through the day. These are things that can seem out of reach during a depressive episode. Personally, I wouldn't deny anyone a jumpstart.
Posted by rose45 on December 27, 2019, at 4:59:51
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » linkadge, posted by beckett2 on December 26, 2019, at 23:11:44
I think there is a difference between feeling good and feeling 'high' In my case when I was on Nardil I felt high quite often, but it affected my judgement.... I started gambling on the stock market because I became over confident and actually ended up losing quite a bit of money etc.. this is what worries me about the 'highs' you get from drugs. Parnate did not affect me that much in that way, but I have been working on myself through therapy and meditation over many years, and last year after I went to a meditation retreat,I began to feel high again. Its a very pleasant feeling but looking back, my judgment became distorted, and that is when I decreased the parnate, and it stopped working altogether. I m not sure how to avoid these highs, but I now take 2.5 mg of olanzapine which kick-started the parnate again, and I think it is also keeping my mood more stable. Its very tricky navigating through all this as most of us dont have a psychiatrist who can help, since most of them seem to not know very much about these medications, and the subtleties involved.
Posted by beckett2 on December 27, 2019, at 21:31:06
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic?, posted by rose45 on December 27, 2019, at 4:59:51
> I think there is a difference between feeling good and feeling 'high' In my case when I was on Nardil I felt high quite often, but it affected my judgement.... I started gambling on the stock market because I became over confident and actually ended up losing quite a bit of money etc.. this is what worries me about the 'highs' you get from drugs. Parnate did not affect me that much in that way, but I have been working on myself through therapy and meditation over many years, and last year after I went to a meditation retreat,I began to feel high again. Its a very pleasant feeling but looking back, my judgment became distorted, and that is when I decreased the parnate, and it stopped working altogether. I m not sure how to avoid these highs, but I now take 2.5 mg of olanzapine which kick-started the parnate again, and I think it is also keeping my mood more stable. Its very tricky navigating through all this as most of us dont have a psychiatrist who can help, since most of them seem to not know very much about these medications, and the subtleties involved.
Do you think this was a type of manic episode? I have bipolar, and twice medication caused pretty strong hypomania. Zoloft and Saphris. I agree with the way you explained one of the differences between feeling high and feeling good. Most AP's do make me feel high in that I'd never drive or care for a child while taking them.
I thought there was a connection between Parnate and stimulants. I don't know if this is true, but in my own life, adderall is very helpful in the right amount. I can feel like being social, like creating, like getting out of bed. Too much is destabilizing.
Although I may be flippant, I need to guard my mood stability. No drinking or smoking, etc. Have you found a treatment replacement for Parnate?
Posted by undopaminergic on December 29, 2019, at 9:25:37
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » rose45, posted by beckett2 on December 27, 2019, at 21:31:06
>
> I thought there was a connection between Parnate and stimulants. I don't know if this is true, ...
>It is. Tranylcypromine has a bit of the same action as amphetamines, but is less potent. It releases dopamine and maybe noradrenaline. This is why higher doses can be more effective, even though the level of MAO inhibition remains the same.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2019, at 13:41:35
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » rose45, posted by beckett2 on December 27, 2019, at 21:31:06
>Most AP's do make me feel high in that I'd never >drive or care for a child while taking them.
I wouldn't refer to that as 'high', but I suppose there are different definitions. To me 'high' means feeling really good. I NEVER felt really good on antipsychotics. I felt 'out of it' or 'wonky' but I wouldn't call it high.
I used to have little daily highs when I was younger (which never resulted in a loss of control). Sometimes this was while running, other times it would be during really nice weather. Occasionally (when doing a periodic fast) I would feel high...i.e. just moments of feeling REALLY good and happy to be alive. Just moments though...nothing that lasted a fulld day or week (or whatever is typical for a manic episode).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2019, at 13:43:11
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » beckett2, posted by undopaminergic on December 29, 2019, at 9:25:37
I have made some bad choices on SSRIs, but I wouldn't say it was related to my mood being abnormally elevated. SSRIs make me impulsive (irrespective of mood) perhaps by worsening my attention.
Linkadge
Posted by beckett2 on December 29, 2019, at 14:51:22
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » beckett2, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2019, at 13:41:35
> >Most AP's do make me feel high in that I'd never >drive or care for a child while taking them.
>
> I wouldn't refer to that as 'high', but I suppose there are different definitions. To me 'high' means feeling really good. I NEVER felt really good on antipsychotics. I felt 'out of it' or 'wonky' but I wouldn't call it high.
>
> I used to have little daily highs when I was younger (which never resulted in a loss of control). Sometimes this was while running, other times it would be during really nice weather. Occasionally (when doing a periodic fast) I would feel high...i.e. just moments of feeling REALLY good and happy to be alive. Just moments though...nothing that lasted a fulld day or week (or whatever is typical for a manic episode).
>
>
> Linkadge
I loved my runners high! I understand more your definition.
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2019, at 15:40:30
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » linkadge, posted by beckett2 on December 29, 2019, at 14:51:22
Yeah, not an uncontrollable high (doing wacky things), just having moments of feeling really good (where you create memories of YES! THAT'S WHY I WANT TO LIVE).
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on December 29, 2019, at 20:23:36
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » beckett2, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2019, at 13:41:35
> Occasionally (when doing a periodic fast) I would feel high...i.e. just moments of feeling REALLY good and happy to be alive. Just moments though...nothing that lasted a fulld day or week (or whatever is typical for a manic episode).
>There is something called ultradian cycling in bipolar disorder. However, unless you also had "lows" alternating with the "highs", I wouldn't think it's bipolar.
-undopaminergic
Posted by phidippus on December 29, 2019, at 21:30:27
In reply to Is a 'high' theraputic?, posted by linkadge on December 23, 2019, at 16:54:44
Highs can be very therapeutic. I'm thinking of hallucinogens such as psylocibin, LSD and DMT. Most users report feelings of general well-being after the high/trip has occured. I've found that highs with psychiatric medications usually come in the form of hypomania and can have a negative impact overall but sometimes bring about perspective. The last time I was high on pharmaceuticals I drove to South Carolina, wrecked a car, broke my back and bought a new car at a 25% APR.
Posted by beckett2 on December 30, 2019, at 13:09:13
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » beckett2, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2019, at 15:40:30
> Yeah, not an uncontrollable high (doing wacky things), just having moments of feeling really good (where you create memories of YES! THAT'S WHY I WANT TO LIVE).
>
> LinkadgeHave you tried occasional sleep deprivation?
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2019, at 10:07:17
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » linkadge, posted by beckett2 on December 30, 2019, at 13:09:13
>Have you tried occasional sleep deprivation?
My body seems to do this by itself already once a week or more. It helps some symptoms. Not too practical for daily use though.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on January 1, 2020, at 14:20:06
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic? » beckett2, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2019, at 10:07:17
> >Have you tried occasional sleep deprivation?
>
> My body seems to do this by itself already once a week or more. It helps some symptoms. Not too practical for daily use though.
>
> LinkadgeI've been awake for more than 24 hours now. Without stimulants other than tea and coffee.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Ruuudy on January 9, 2020, at 18:47:53
In reply to Re: Is a 'high' theraputic?, posted by undopaminergic on January 1, 2020, at 14:20:06
And similarly, I propse the question "Can getting drunk be theraputic?".
I say yes.
Just as "getting drunk" set off my very first depressive episode back in 1982 at age 15, getting drunk at age 17 also set off a neurochemical reaction that turned out to "reset" my brain's "inner workings" for the better and lifted me out of depression.Rudy
Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2020, at 17:27:24
In reply to Is a 'drunk' theraputic?, posted by Ruuudy on January 9, 2020, at 18:47:53
>"Can getting drunk be theraputic?".
Of course. People need this kind of contact. It's not particularly good for you as we all know.
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2020, at 15:25:52
In reply to Is a 'drunk' theraputic?, posted by Ruuudy on January 9, 2020, at 18:47:53
That's why Homer Simpson says that alcohol is both the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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