![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on April 21, 2018, at 21:55:27
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by bleauberry on April 21, 2018, at 8:37:20
> I would just say that maybe another novel approach would be to identify the cause of the "times of stress" and fix that.
Genes + childhood diversity = psychiatric illness.
How would you fix this particular scenario, understanding the realities of our current society?
> Make it so we fix the actual problems so we don't need a protein manipulating drug.
Would you venture a guess as to what these actual problems are?
Borrelia burgdorferi? Nutrition? Genes? Prenatal exposures? Bullying? Learned helplessness? Sexual abuse? Neglect? Stroke? Brain trauma? Substance abuse? Bereavement?
My vote is for "all of the above - and more".
> I mean, I have a question. Our scientists are so brilliant that they can figure out how to manipulate various proteins this way or that way, but they can't figure out what is actually wrong with the person's chemistry?
You are angry at the scientists?
And yes, we do need to manipulate biological functions in order to help people feel better until you or scientists can figure out the rest.
> Why do they focus on downstream but not upstream?
How far upstream would you like to go? Can you provide neuroscience with knowledge so that they can focus their attention there? Are you willing to support scientists or simply rail against them? And while we are here talking about scientists, they are not a monolithic consortium plotting against you and the two doctors you rely upon for your belief system.
As far as I can see, scientists focus on as many things as they can conceive of given the technologies that are available and the knowledge provided to them. Knowledge is always accumulating and evolving. Perhaps you expect too much of today's scientists. They are closer than they were yesterday and further away than they will be tomorrow - as long as science is not stymied by the dogma of demagogues and the disinformation spread by charlatans.
> In any case, the medical world could use some new options in terms of psychiatric medications so hopefully these new discoveries will help to improve the quality of life for some folks.
> > A novel set of antidepressant drugs might be developed that inhibit the actions of TRIP8b. This protein acts during times of stress to suppress activity in the hippocampus via the entorhinal cortex, which is located upstream. The hippocampus is a brain structure involved in mood and memory. When TRIP8b is inhibited, both of these regions become more active. In the laboratory, TRIP8b knock-out mice demonstrated antidepressant behavior and memory-enhancement. I couldn't guess at how long it would take for such compounds to become available - if at all. Some of us will never see them, but our children might.
This isn't a new option?
Hopefully, mankind will be able to help improve the quality of life for all folks.
I always appreciate your enthusiasm.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 21, 2018, at 22:01:40
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on April 21, 2018, at 21:55:27
Correction:
> Genes + childhood diversity = psychiatric illness.
Should be:
Genes + childhood adversity = psychiatric illness.
Sorry.
- Scott
Posted by PeterMartin on April 22, 2018, at 2:44:02
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by linkadge on April 21, 2018, at 15:23:12
A baldness pill would double as an antidepressant for me and I'm sure many other men.
Hard to believe science hasn't figured that one out yet.
(Not to hijack your thread but on the subject of things that seemingly only our children will see)
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 7:32:25
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by Christ_empowered on April 21, 2018, at 17:18:47
>i think status and resources and social
>connections are powerful "antidepressants,"
> personally.
I would argue only up to a point. Research shows that income can reduce overall levels of stress / depression but only up to about $70,000 of income a year.
After that income, most people's basic needs are met and buying further toys / goodies / larger house / faster car doesn't create any lasting sense of happiness. Nor does it do anything to ameliorate genetic issues.Also, when wealth is used as a cruch, it may impede recovery in some ways. For example, I would argue that friendships / connections among the rich are perhaps more superficial.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 7:37:10
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by baseball55 on April 21, 2018, at 18:27:30
Much of the "status" effect is learned (i.e. relative deprivation). Many "poor" people still live with resources far above that experienced in other countries.
If I lived in the bush and had a better mud hut than my peers, that might create a constructed feeling of superiority. However, if the base needs are met, the net effect of social status is likely overestimated.
Some studies show that those with higher social status, in fact have higher cortisol levels. This is true in primates where social status positively correlates with cortisol levels.
Social status matters to a point, after which it can itself become a stressor.
"A celebrity is somebody who works their whole life to be noticed, then wears dark sunglasses to avoid being noticed".
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 7:45:25
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on April 21, 2018, at 21:55:27
I've lived in middle (or perhaps lower middle) class my entire life. Some of that may in fact be a result of my depression as opposed to a cause.
I graduated with a 90+ average in high school and with an A+ average in a math / science degree at a respected university. However, I currently earn somewhere between the poverty line and median income.
My illness has perhaps made me complacent. I see that I live in a great country where my base needs are met with a basic job. The only thing worth buying is time / freedom IMHO.
I don't care for status / large house, or other material possessions that people think makes them happy. If celebrities are any proxy for the rich, they sure aren't immune from depression, bipolar, anxiety, alcoholism, drug issues etc.
I have saved quite a bit of money, and I do think that helps relieve stress. However, my day-day life is pretty meagre. I'd be lucky if I spend $100 a year on discressionary items.
That all being said, I'd say I'm living in remission. I don't attribute that to my social status.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 7:50:51
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by PeterMartin on April 22, 2018, at 2:44:02
The problem is the difference between what people perceive will make them happy and what actually makes them happy.
Studies of lottery winners repeatedly show little / lasting effect of winning the lottery on overal level of happiness.
Such studies show that people (over the course of about a year) simply return to their baseline. If they were happy / go lucky, that's what they return to. If they were gouchy, that's what they return to.
It's human nature to believe that obtaining something new / better will improve happiness level. If we didn't think this way, we would not achieve much at all.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2018, at 8:16:11
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by linkadge on April 21, 2018, at 9:07:10
Hi, Linkadge.
> TRIP8b inhibitors apparently exert their effect through HCN1 channels (no expert here, just google searches).
>
> Ketamine inhibits HCN1. Zinc may also interact with both HCN channels and TRIP8b.Wow. Did you come across anything suggesting that there is a relationship between HCN channels and BDNF production?
> Keep in mind though, that this is the stress induced model of depression. While most people will experience some degree of depression if subjected to enough stress, not all depressive disorders are a result of external stress.
>
> Some researchers argue that focusing on the stress model of depression may be ignoring the underlying cause of a significant group of patients.I had an interesting thought, Linkadge. Regardless of psychosocial stress or biogenic etiologies, depression is itself a stress on the system. If the reaction to this stress is for the brain to increase TRIP8b activity and thus a worsening or persistence of depression, a positive feedback loop is created. Once created, the cycle must be hard to break. Persistent brain inflammation might follow a similar path. Just pondering.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2018, at 8:20:31
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 7:45:25
I hope that you are still improving.
- Scott
Posted by Hordak on April 22, 2018, at 12:10:45
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by PeterMartin on April 22, 2018, at 2:44:02
Big 3 + Seti + needle rolling...
> A baldness pill would double as an antidepressant for me and I'm sure many other men.
>
> Hard to believe science hasn't figured that one out yet.
>
> (Not to hijack your thread but on the subject of things that seemingly only our children will see)
>
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 14:19:32
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 22, 2018, at 8:16:11
Hi SLS,
Yes, depression is likely a stressor which in turn could end up activating the genes associated with stress induced depression.
However, I remember reading that (at least in rodent studies) the genes associated with the depressive lines of rats were different from the genes associated with stress induced anhedonia / depression.
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 14:23:41
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » SLS, posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 14:19:32
Just to add. Sometimes when there are really big stressors in my life, I feel great. I'm not sure if this is a hypomania (or something). It's when the stress ends, and my life goes back to being a meaningless, repetitive sequence of boredom, that I seem incapable of making any changes to.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 16:44:30
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 22, 2018, at 8:16:11
As far as your other question, there does seem to be a link between TRIP8b HCN1 and BDNF: See:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3418514/Just to add. I am far, far from any expert on this, but (from my reading) there appears to be a whole sequence of events that typically occurs during sucessful 'antidepressant' effects.
Many of the targets, WNT, GSK3, HCN1, TREK, BDNF, mTOR, AMPA (many many others) are all connected in the sucessful treatment of depression. Some are more upstream than others. I.e. a successul treatment with an SSRI may (eventually) activate all the targets mentioned. HCN1 may be part of the pathway, or closer to the final destination (i.e. faster acting) than others.
But, when a treatment works, it is likely associated with alteration of many of these pathways simultanioulsly, or in sequence.
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on April 22, 2018, at 18:22:19
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » baseball55, posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 7:37:10
>
> Some studies show that those with higher social status, in fact have higher cortisol levels. This is true in primates where social status positively correlates with cortisol levels.
>
> Social status matters to a point, after which it can itself become a stressor.
Depends on what we mean by status. If status means greater power and authority in the workplace (which is what we generally mean), then the literature is clear. Those with higher status suffer less stress and are less likely to get sick. Researchers in the UK did a survey of civil servants by status/authority level and found that, when exposed to cold viruses, lower level employees were more likely to get sick than their superiors.Yes, we can talk about absolute poverty and how much better off poor Americans are than the poor in Kenya or India. But psychologically, poverty is experiences as a relative condition. To be without a phone, computer, electricity, indoor plumbing, transportation, in the context of US society, represents serious deprivation and huge stress.
>
>
>
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2018, at 0:58:54
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » SLS, posted by linkadge on April 22, 2018, at 16:44:30
> As far as your other question, there does seem to be a link between TRIP8b HCN1 and BDNF: See:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3418514/Thanks.
> Just to add. I am far, far from any expert on this,You know a heck of a lot more than me!
> but (from my reading) there appears to be a whole sequence of events that typically occurs during sucessful 'antidepressant' effects.
>
> Many of the targets, WNT, GSK3, HCN1, TREK, BDNF, mTOR, AMPA (many many others) are all connected in the sucessful treatment of depression. Some are more upstream than others. I.e. a successul treatment with an SSRI may (eventually) activate all the targets mentioned. HCN1 may be part of the pathway, or closer to the final destination (i.e. faster acting) than others.
>
> But, when a treatment works, it is likely associated with alteration of many of these pathways simultanioulsly, or in sequence.Sounds good to me.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on April 23, 2018, at 11:38:48
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on April 21, 2018, at 21:55:27
>
> Genes + childhood diversity = psychiatric illness.
>
> How would you fix this particular scenario, understanding the realities of our current society?I couldn't speculate on that. What kind of genes? What kind of adversity? What kind of psychiatric illness? You will find some of the people in this imaginary scenario would respond well to Acupuncture, another to an sssri, another to some herbs, and another to simply avoiding gluten.
>
>
> Would you venture a guess as to what these actual problems are?
>
> Borrelia burgdorferi? Nutrition? Genes? Prenatal exposures? Bullying? Learned helplessness? Sexual abuse? Neglect? Stroke? Brain trauma? Substance abuse? Bereavement?The 1st one requires a skilled LLMD and maybe some temporary psych meds. Nutrition is easy to fix. Genetic technology is only in its infancy so it isn't much assistance at this time. The next 3 need a counselor and/or a pastor. Same for substance abuse and bereavement. The substance abuse person might need some medication for about a year. Stroke and brain trauma there really isn't a whole lot we can do except make the person comfortable and as functional as possible.
>
> My vote is for "all of the above - and more".
>
> > I mean, I have a question. Our scientists are so brilliant that they can figure out how to manipulate various proteins this way or that way, but they can't figure out what is actually wrong with the person's chemistry?
>
> You are angry at the scientists?Everybody should be concerned with inadequate science and inadequate medical treatments. Getting angry helps nothing.
>
> And yes, we do need to manipulate biological functions in order to help people feel better until you or scientists can figure out the rest.Armchair quarterbacking at best. Half of the 'manipulations' we assume are doing something could be way off base. Just one of hundreds of examples - zyprexa turns on or up a couple dozen different genes - zyprexa also turns down or off a couple dozen other genes. It also is an antagonist at certain receptors. We automatically deduce that when improvement of mood happens, it is because of something dopamine related or something antagonistic related. But we never even consider that maybe those just make side effects and its the manipulated genes that did the healing. We can discuss manipulating things all day long but a quick glance at the folks at psychobabble immediately tells you that particular approach is unsatisfactory.
>
> > Why do they focus on downstream but not upstream?
>
> How far upstream would you like to go?All the way to the tick bite, to the amalgam filling, to the gluten, to whatever insults the person's body is experiencing. Get rid of all obvious potential insults. Can you provide neuroscience with knowledge so that they can focus their attention there? Are you willing to support scientists or simply rail against them? And while we are here talking about scientists, they are not a monolithic consortium plotting against you and the two doctors you rely upon for your belief system.
I don't agree with your stance of pitting one group against another. They are all supposed to be healing patients but only some of them actually are. Focus on them. Doctors and scientists who are not generally showing patients what remission looks like do not deserve much focus. imo. But I disagree with making a competition about it. The patient is what matters - not theory, not textbooks, not consensus. That's how I view things.
>
> As far as I can see, scientists focus on as many things as they can conceive of given the technologies that are available and the knowledge provided to them. Knowledge is always accumulating and evolving. Perhaps you expect too much of today's scientists. They are closer than they were yesterday and further away than they will be tomorrow - as long as science is not stymied by the dogma of demagogues and the disinformation spread by charlatans.There is way too much disinformation and politics that has corrupted the world of science. Maybe that's why I had to suffer for 20 years without good reason. The CDC is particularly guilty of disinformation, especially in discussions of Lyme, and that is only scratching the surface.
I can literally point my finger at the white coat academia pinheads over at the CDC and blame them directly for losing 20 years of my life to treatment resistant depression. That's because THEY were the ones who instructed MY doctor to tell the patient the DONT HAVE Lyme disease IF THE TEST COMES BACK NEGATIVE! And that is exactly what happened.
>
> > In any case, the medical world could use some new options in terms of psychiatric medications so hopefully these new discoveries will help to improve the quality of life for some folks.In my opinion the next great antidepressant discovery would be a substance that does this: 1.It binds up anything in the blood system that isn't supposed to be there - endotoxins, heavy metals, plastics, undigested foods, stray protein fragments, etc. 2.It provides anti-inflammation from multiple mechanisms and angles. This antidepressant would have nothing to do with agonism, antagonism, reuptake, monoamines, or any of that. It's job would be to remove the most common insults that cause depression, in my opinion.
For example - my case - I walked around for years with endotoxins of Borellia infection hitting my brain receptors and causing psychiatric stuff. Nobody knew. Nobody here even suggested it. But just imagine if there was such a drug that mopped up the endotoxins. You would immediately be able to rule-in or rule-out certain things.
Right now we can't do anything like that. We basically toss a coin in the air and guess at this drug or that drug. And after a few years when we find out that drug is no better than any of its predecessor, we wait with great enthusiasm for the next one. And so it goes, round and round.
Scientists really should be doing a better job helping patients restore wellness. imo I don't mean that in a blanket way for all scientists - primarily the ones in the health field are focusing their expertise on the wrong things, the wrong mechanisms, if you ask me.
>
> I always appreciate your enthusiasm.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2018, at 14:06:55
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » linkadge, posted by baseball55 on April 22, 2018, at 18:22:19
>To be without a phone, computer, electricity, >indoor plumbing, transportation, in the context of >US society, represents serious deprivation and
>huge stress.I disagree. As long as people have a reliable source of food, shelter, clothing and purpose, they will tend to revert to their genetic homeostatis.
People can always look up or look down and be bummed. Again, studies on lottery winners repeatedly show no lasting effect of moving from middle class, to upper class, or upper class to upper, upper class.
I simply cluster with people of a similar socioeconomic status, so that I don't feel relative deprivation.
Again, I was raised middle class, but I am currently living lower class. I have adjusted just fine.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2018, at 14:08:39
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by linkadge on April 23, 2018, at 14:06:55
I don't own a cell phone. I've never owned one.
Should I be depressed about this? Never thought about it.
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on April 23, 2018, at 19:40:44
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2018, at 14:08:39
> I don't own a cell phone. I've never owned one.
>
> Should I be depressed about this? Never thought about it.
>
> LinkadgeI didn't say depressed. Just stressed. Without access to a phone (not necessarily a cell phone, though they are actually cheaper today than land-lines), it's hard to find a job or keep a job or arrange child care.
Without electricity, what exactly do people in modern cities due. Burning candles and kerosene is dangerous and often illegal. Your kids can't do their homework at night. You can;t do the housework you need at the end of a long workday.
And yes - adequate food, shelter, clothing, etc can be enough. But what's adequate? In Mumbai, a tiny one room shanty would be more than adequate, since many have no home at all. But that would not be okay in America. In Nigeria, villagers may have only one outfit and will wear it with holes until it completely falls apart. What parent can send a child to school this way in the US/Canada?
I've spent time in some of the poorest places on earth and people are accustomed to a level of deprivation in many parts of the world that would be unthinkable here. Do you think children do not notice, when they go to school, that their classmates have better clothing, more nutritious food, etc.? Do you think they and their parents do not feel stressed by this? People are shamed by relative poverty, especially children and parents. They are stressed trying to make ends meet and nearly failing on a daily basis.
Of course, you live in Canada that has free health care and a bit of a dole. You are a single adult. So things look different to you.
The male privilege always evident on this list has finally, I think, driven me away.
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2018, at 20:01:35
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by baseball55 on April 23, 2018, at 19:40:44
Hi.
> The male privilege always evident on this list has finally, I think, driven me away.I'm afraid that I am clueless as to what this is.
Please don't go away.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2018, at 20:14:01
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » SLS, posted by bleauberry on April 23, 2018, at 11:38:48
I take umbrage to your characterizations of scientists and the state of biological psychiatry.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on April 24, 2018, at 6:05:15
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on April 23, 2018, at 20:14:01
I take umbrage that modern science sentenced me to 20 years in a dungeon despite being an innocent prisoner. I take umbrage that it continues to happen to millions of people like me. The best they can do is throw SSRI's at them. I take umbrage at that.
But it is the best we have so we have to work with it. It really doesn't advance the cause for you, me, or anyone else to be feeling umbrage about anything.
> I take umbrage to your characterizations of scientists and the state of biological psychiatry.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2018, at 15:07:11
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants., posted by baseball55 on April 23, 2018, at 19:40:44
>Do you think children do not notice, when they
>go to school, that their classmates have better
>clothing, more nutritious food, etc.? Do you >think they and their parents do not feel >stressed by this?Like I said, to the extent that people don't have nutritious food, shelter and clothing, yes life circumstances can cause depression.
However, to the extent that others have "more" nutritious food, or "better" clothing - sorry, I'm not buying it.
If you compared my vehicle to a line of 100 average others, mine would stand out like a sore thumb (rust, rumbling etc). Do I care? Not really. Why not? Because I've learned that those things don't matter.
>People are shamed by relative poverty
No - *some* people are ashamed by relative poverty. I live in relative poverty. It doesn't bother me.
>especially children and parents.Again, some children and some parents are susceptible to comparing themselves to others (more than others). Certain brain regions are responsible for such upward social comparisons.
For example, there are parents who will take out a second mortgage in order to put their kids into hockey. My parents said, no, we can't afford it - and I learned a valuable life lesson.
>stressed trying to make ends meet and nearly
>failing on a daily basis.That's not what we're talking about here. My argument was that people who HAD their basic needs met. After people HAVE their basic needs met, they will tend to revert to their genetic homeostatic level of happiness.
>Of course, you live in Canada that has free
>health care and a bit of a dole.The government does not pay for medications, nor does it pay for glasses, eye exams, or dental visits. I currently have multiple cavities, a glasses prescription that is 14 years old, and a stack of prescriptions that I pay for out of pocket. I've also never utilized any social assistance. I suppose I am the stunning model of "white privilege" to which you are referring.
Let's be honest - you don't know anything about me - keep your personal jabs to yourself please.
>You are a single adult.
You are correct. I don't have enough money to raise any children - therefore, I have decided not to have children. This is a very basic decision making process, that many people never partake in.
>The male privilege always evident on this list
>has finally, I think, driven me away.Give me a break.
The point I am trying to make, is that beyond food, clothing and shelter, I have spend less than $100 on any form of personal discretion / enjoyment in the past year.
How is this possible? I decided to change my mind and stop trying to keep up with the jonses.
NONE - I repeat NONE of that stuff provides any sense of lasting happiness.
Apparently you are not enlightened to this universal truth.
Linkadge
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 24, 2018, at 18:40:10
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » SLS, posted by bleauberry on April 24, 2018, at 6:05:15
> > I take umbrage to your characterizations of scientists and the state of biological psychiatry.
> I take umbrage that modern science sentenced me to 20 years in a dungeon despite being an innocent prisoner. I take umbrage that it continues to happen to millions of people like me. The best they can do is throw SSRI's at them. I take umbrage at that.
>
> But it is the best we have so we have to work with it. It really doesn't advance the cause for you, me, or anyone else to be feeling umbrage about anything.Then don't take umbrage at modern science! That's exactly the point!
I'm sorry that it took so long for you to get well. This is not the fault of science or scientists. They work hard. I'm sure people who have Parkinson's or Alzheimer's have a very understandable disappointment - and even anger - aimed at the slow pace of discovery. I think most recognize the value in the scientific method, though.
You say that Lyme Disease is the cause of 9 out of 10 cases of psychiatric symptoms. What exactly is the number of cases of Lyme Disease nationwide? Having that number would be instructive.
Would one be partially to blame for wasting years of their life were they to swear that the amalgam fillings in their teeth were to blame for their psychiatric symptoms? What about focusing on Candida yeast infections? Alternative treatments can be attractive if mainstream medicine has not yet provided a cure. Desperation is a strong motivator.
9 out of 10 psychiatric patients have Lyme Disease? At least now I can eliminate mercury and Candida from consideration. That will be a real time-saver.
You show little or no respect for science, scientists, or psychiatry. You judge everything by an extrapolation of your own experiences. This is not good science. Fortunately, I didn't rip the fillings out of my mouth 10 years ago.
People who are in agony and have not yet found a treatment that relieves them of their frustration and pain become desperate and are willing to try almost anything*. I do not think it is fair to promise a cure by choosing to reject modern medicine in the hope that they will attain wellness by promoting Lyme Disease treatment for 9 out of 10 people.
Personally, I believe that Lyme Disease can produce psychiatric symptoms - and some very severe ones. It's your numbers that don't work. I addressed this in a previous post. Using more liberal numbers, for every 100 people displaying psychiatric symptoms, only one will have Lyme Disease. The more concervative number was 1/338. This value depends upon the number of cases of Lyme Disease occuring nationwide. However, Lyme is not distributed equally throught the US. Many states have almost no cases at all. Yet, your 9/10 does not account for regional differences. If Lyme is not global, how can your one-size-fits-all assertion be global?
* I remember when Laetrile/Amygdalin for treating cancer was the cure du jour. People flocked to Mexico in the 1980s to get their hands on it. Unfortunately, consuming aprocot pits proved to be more snake-oil than cure. The scientific method worked to put this question to rest. The National Institutes of Health created in 1993 a department dedicated to the pursuit and testing of Complementary and Alternative Medicine along with Integrative Medicine. This program is grounded in the scientific method.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on April 27, 2018, at 8:51:11
In reply to Re: TRIP8b inhibitors? Truly novel antidepressants. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on April 24, 2018, at 18:40:10
> > > I take umbrage to your characterizations of scientists and the state of biological psychiatry.
>
> > I take umbrage that modern science sentenced me to 20 years in a dungeon despite being an innocent prisoner. I take umbrage that it continues to happen to millions of people like me. The best they can do is throw SSRI's at them. I take umbrage at that.
> >
> > But it is the best we have so we have to work with it. It really doesn't advance the cause for you, me, or anyone else to be feeling umbrage about anything.
>
> Then don't take umbrage at modern science! That's exactly the point!
>
> I'm sorry that it took so long for you to get well. This is not the fault of science or scientists.Of course it is. They are the ones who developed the Lyme lab tests. They are the ones who hide the embarrassingly low accuracy rate of those tests. They are the ones, at the CDC, who direct every other doctor how to interpret those tests. They are the ones who told me, "We are happy to inform you that your test came back negative and you do not have Lyme disease." Look, it wasn't the local grocery or retail or attorney or MD who said that - it was the scientists at the CDC.
>They work hard.
Hard work is not at all the same thing as effective work. Their 'hard work' is well rewarded with salaries and benefits well above the national average. While it is tempting to have this pristine image in the mind of dedicated scientists working hard to bring us cures, it's really not like that. Their goals are not your goals.
>I'm sure people who have Parkinson's or Alzheimer's have a very understandable disappointment - and even anger - aimed at the slow pace of discovery. I think most recognize the value in the scientific method, though.
Show me some facts on that. How many people recognize the value in the scientific method? and what exactly does that mean?It's a nice word salad.
>
> You say that Lyme Disease is the cause of 9 out of 10 cases of psychiatric symptoms.No I did not say that. I repeated it. The original 'sayers' were Dr. C LLMD and Dr. D LLMD, both of different states, both who treated me, both who do psychiatry and lyme all day long, nothing else.
>What exactly is the number of cases of Lyme Disease nationwide? Having that number would be instructive.
Nobody knows. That's because diagnosis and testing are so poor. The best estimates by LLMDs are that for every 1 patient who is correctly diagnosed, there are 9 others walking around without a diagnosis or with a wrong diagnosis of some other mystery disease. There are so many people with mystery diseases - fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, lupus, depression, anxiety, tremors, dementia, Alzheimers, parkinsons, on and on - which can and have improved on antibiotics, including total remissions, including disappearance of brain lesions in MS, when prescribed ABX for some other unrelated reason. This is exactly how LLMDs first noticed the clue that maybe all this stuff was unsuspected lyme instead. Unless you challenge it with antibiotics, you will never know.
>
> Would one be partially to blame for wasting years of their life were they to swear that the amalgam fillings in their teeth were to blame for their psychiatric symptoms?Getting amalgam fillings replaced with white composite is one of the first things any chronically ill person should accomplish or they may never get better. Some people go their entire lives healthy, vibrant, bouncy, with amalgam fillings and mercury the whole time. These people have good detox genes. Not every body is that fortunate. Especially in chronic illnesses, we an have inadequate detox genes that allow trace amounts of toxins to accumulate over time into non-trace pathogenic levels. Many mystery disease including psychiatric have been improved or cured with this one procedure. I had half a dozen amalgams removed. I personally felt only minor benefits at best, short term, but I will never know if my current improved state has anything to do with it. I believe everything positive we can do is accumulative in battling disease.Maybe we can't point a finger at any single thing, whether it be a drug, an herb, a procedure, a life style, whatever. It is the whole picture that matters.
>What about focusing on Candida yeast infections?
Candida is a more common health issue than people are aware, in my opinion. It can cause everything from depression to brain fog to fatigue to everything. It can look like Lyme, It can look like psychiatric, it can look like mystery diseases. Battling Candida is part of the anti-lyme protocol. It comes with the territory. There are some effective herbs, but Diflucan works best, and simply removing sugars and starches from your diet can clean it up. There can be huge Herxheimer reactions doing this. Indicating the problem was severe.
>Alternative treatments can be attractive if mainstream medicine has not yet provided a cure. Desperation is a strong motivator.
20+ years not making much progress in psychiatric treatment is the definition of desperate, if you ask me. I also believe that most of what we consider 'alternative' treatments should actually be 'first line' treatments. You save the conventional mainstream treatments for alternative failures, or for serious acute situations. imo. Here is a 'for example' - let's say a patient is referred to a psychiatrist with anxiety, tremors and unexplained fear. There is not a good explanation. Instead of immediately starting the patient on Xanax, why don't we give that patient 5 days of 1-2 antibiotics and 'see what happens'?(assuming the psychiatrist knows his/er stuff and what to look for) It makes a ton more sense than giving the patient 12 weeks of lexapro to 'see what happens'.
>
> 9 out of 10 psychiatric patients have Lyme Disease? At least now I can eliminate mercury and Candida from consideration. That will be a real time-saver.Sounds kind of pessimistic in a ridiculing tone. The truth is, we do all of those. If you want to get rid of depression for good, we have to do all of those. It's part of a 'comprehensive' plan that should also include psychiatric meds that help the patient in the short run have a better quality of life while treatment strategies play out. I don't think we can 'restore wellness' without a comprehensive approach. Most of what modern medicine is merely 'managing disease', not restoring wellness. What I love so much about the lyme approach in psychiatry is that it forces the patient to think in a comprehensive way. It covers untold wide spectrum pathogens of bacteria, virus and fungi, inflammations of all kinds, and toxicities. It also includes focused grocery carts and removal of mercury from your teeth. It is my hunch that lyme treatment itself is not the psychiatric cure, but rather, the comprehensive approach of it that is. That said, people have and do get totally better with just ABX.
>
> You show little or no respect for science, scientists, or psychiatry. You judge everything by an extrapolation of your own experiences. This is not good science. Fortunately, I didn't rip the fillings out of my mouth 10 years ago.I have great respect for scientists who get it right. Like the ones for example working on space ships to Mars and curing Lyme disease, mining coal, producing energy, sending skyscrapers to the clouds that can bend in hurricanes, etc. Unfortunately much of today's science industry has been corrupted and polluted by profit-seeking, funding-seeking, politics, and greed. They don't suffer. You do. The patient does. I think this happens the most where the lines are blurred, where things are not black and white, for example, in mystery diseases and in psychiatry.
You have mercury in your mouth. Leaching into your body. The 2nd most toxic substance on earth. And it's literally an inch from your brain. Establishment science says that is perfectly safe. Alternative science says absolute not. So choose your team. We can already prove that people do get better with amalgam removal because their stories are all over the world and all over the internet. There are many countries who outlaw amalgams! If you are all about defending science, Scott, then fine, defend how trace amounts of mercury in the body is going to be helpful in any way for a psychiatric patient. Totally makes no sense and doesn't even need any science to figure that out.
>
> People who are in agony and have not yet found a treatment that relieves them of their frustration and pain become desperate and are willing to try almost anything*.That is actually not true. My doctors all told me that I was an unusual patient in that I became active in my own recovery and treatment, did my own research, asked tough questions, researched high and low, and I challenged conventional mainstream beliefs due to their widespread disappointments. Most people don't do that. My doctors told me that even when treatment has not been fruitful, the majority of patients prefer status quo - just go to the appointment, get a prescription, and that's it. Even when they land in a wheelchair due to ineffective treatments, they still do not seek out second opinions or other treatments. We see that same phenomenon right here at babble. I get the sense there are patients who would rather stay on the journey they are on, rather than risk their comfort zone or challenge their longhand world views. Many would and do stay sick and refuse to try to copy what has been successful to other people, merely because it challenges longhand patriotism to the science of psychiatry.
>I do not think it is fair to promise a cure by choosing to reject modern medicine in the hope that they will attain wellness by promoting Lyme Disease treatment for 9 out of 10 people.
Suggesting. Not promoting. Awareness. But since you mentioned it, pretty much all psychiatrists give their patients the sense that their prescriptions will help them, cure them, make them feel better. So I agree with you - that is very unfair.
I would just suggest the challenge to show me where I 'promised' anybody anything.
>
> Personally, I believe that Lyme Disease can produce psychiatric symptoms - and some very severe ones. It's your numbers that don't work.I don't understand the fixation on things that have nothing to do with furthering the journey of healing. I mean, maybe statistician or data managing would be something interesting for you to do?
>I addressed this in a previous post. Using more liberal numbers, for every 100 people displaying psychiatric symptoms, only one will have Lyme Disease. The more concervative number was 1/338. This value depends upon the number of cases of Lyme Disease occuring nationwide. However, Lyme is not distributed equally throught the US. Many states have almost no cases at all. Yet, your 9/10 does not account for regional differences. If Lyme is not global, how can your one-size-fits-all assertion be global?
The above paragraph is a bunch of myths gathered together. Ticks are in every state. They have been spotted walking on ice in Alaska. They are currently exploding in New England following multiple sub-zero periods during winter. They find their way everywhere on the feathers of birds and the furs of mice. I have personally seen - last year - a tick crawling on snow after a blizzard. I don't think any of the creatures who harbor lyme germs care much about borders or what country they are in. My first tick bite was a German tick. The Asian ones are supposed to be really bad and were just found this year in New Jersey for the first time. Explain that. How did Asian ticks get to New Jersey in 2018?
Recently it was proved that lyme infections survive in sexual fluids and pass to the infant. So that opens up a whole new can of worms much bigger than ticks. There are reports of lyme being spread by mosquitoes and biting flies. I personally did get a bullseye rash around one mosquito bite out of 20. One night I got bit a lot. Ran out of mosquito repellent. One of them developed a bullseye! I have a photo of it.
What this paragraph tells me is that there is strong opposition and resistance to new ideas that challenge old beliefs. There is very little risk, little cost, and yet a huge disproportionate rejection of it. I don't get that kind of resistance. It just tells me my doctors were maybe right - that many patients just want answers, prescriptions, and magic, without doing the comprehensive work to actually get there.
>
> * I remember when Laetrile/Amygdalin for treating cancer was the cure du jour. People flocked to Mexico in the 1980s to get their hands on it. Unfortunately, consuming aprocot pits proved to be more snake-oil than cure. The scientific method worked to put this question to rest. The National Institutes of Health created in 1993 a department dedicated to the pursuit and testing of Complementary and Alternative Medicine along with Integrative Medicine. This program is grounded in the scientific method.Never even heard of it.
>
>
> - Scott
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.