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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 82 to 106 of 106. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 16:19:57
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 16:07:08
But of course if anyone a comment, go ahead with it.
Posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 17:09:40
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 16:07:08
Sometimes I experience this to various degrees. And it has been a result of the long term effects I've experienced with psychiatric meds.
Posted by baseball55 on September 23, 2015, at 19:53:04
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 21:58:43
> In the sense that you say corellation is not causation, then how can you be sure any medical treatment you've taken or had done has helped you in any way with its effects. There are other reasons you could have improved. There are other reasons you could have suddenly gained weight while on an AAP, even if the weight gain stopped or even went away after you stopped taking it. Right?
> In that sense a most of the experiences on meds written all over the internet could just be mistaken thoughts.Yes, but I am far from the only person who experienced this and placebo-controlled, double-blinded, replicated studies have found weight gain to be a side-effect of AAPs. Does this correlation equal causation? Well, given that the mechanism is not understood, it's impossible to "prove" causation. But there are well-established rules in scientific research to claim causation. For example, we don't know the mechanism by which smoking causes lung disease. We can speculate, but the fact remains that some smokers never suffer from lung disease. Does this mean smoking does not cause lung disease? Large scale comparisons of smokers and non-smokers, replicated again and again and again, find strong correlations. So it is now widely accepted that smoking causes lung disease, even if the exact mechanism (which could prove causality) is unknown.
Other examples in chemistry, physics, biology abound. We don't know, for example, that human characteristics evolved over millennia. It can't be proven. It is a theory. But it is a theory that has been confirmed by evidence again and again and again and has not been falsified by other evidence. So it is now accepted that evolutionary processes led to the development of homo sapiens.
Posted by baseball55 on September 23, 2015, at 19:55:18
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 22:16:27
> > But no, I haven't personally seen a baby regress around the time they received vaccinations. And I'm not certain about the idea of vaccines actually causing autism. But I have read on the effects of vaccines and how they interact with the immune system. And how our immune system interacts with the brain and I've decided autism being a result of vaccines is a reasonable suggestion.
>
> I agree. It is a reasonable suggestion.
>
> Really? Even after study after study after study have found no correlation and the journal that published the one (and only) article making this claim retracted the study?
> - Scott
Posted by baseball55 on September 23, 2015, at 20:14:01
In reply to And yes, I see my typing is horrible today., posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 17:09:40
I will add that I was trained as a scientist and have great regard for the scientific method, which was the greatest gift of the enlightenment, though fought tooth and nail by the church and monarchy of the time, who much preferred using anecdote and prejudice and superstition (not to mention common sense) as a means to maintain their power. People sought the truth, developed methods to seek the truth and methods to assess the truth of claims, despite intense persecution.
Democracy (which allows people to argue) and the scientific method are the basis for our high standard of living today, in my opinion.
Democracy also was attained by individuals who sought truth and justice despite persecution.
Posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 21:39:19
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by baseball55 on September 22, 2015, at 21:12:34
It can be difficult to replicate results when each and every brain affected by psychiatric drugs uniquely. I'd say this is particularly true in my case since I had encephalitis in 2001 that resulted in a coma. Over 75% of my brain was infected and my immune system was attacking the infection as well as my brain. This could have altered my brain in more unique ways. But it didn't take too long after waking from the coma before I seemed to fully recover and was able to live a normal life. Now I'm guessing any of my experiences I've had with medications are going to be blamed on the encephalitis instead. I'd say that could be partially correct. But my thoughts are that I react to psych meds in the way I do because of the encephalitis I had. A month before I stepped into a psychiatrists office for the first time, my mental health was majorly different and *better. One manor thing I can point out is I had absolutely zero problem staying in school a whole day. I could also have better relationships with friends and family. But everything changed about a month after starting my first meds. So naturally I stopped the meds to see if I'd improve, and I didn't. So I figured it likely wasn't psych meds that caused my situation and went a year off them with zero improvement. I decided to go back to the psychiatrist and tried a few antidepressants over some months. Long story short, I ended up worse off.
But still, it may be simple to replicate results of research in a lab under controlled conditions. Even with more simple organisms. But every human brain starts out in.the womb as unique, and the more it develops, the more unique and complex it becomes. and the way it is affected by the world throughout life is unique. Every brain is exposed to different stresses, toxins and trauma as we make our way through the world. And I'm sure these can also affect how our brains are effected by something like Prozac in minor or major ways. I don't know how common it is for someone's brain to react to the chemicals used to alter brain function in a similar manner to my brain. It doesn't seem all that common, but you can find terrible experiences similar to mine posted on various sites. You can also discount these too, if you'd like. But will we keep progressing with psychiatry if the less common experiences with it are ignored? At some point I think it will be a road block.
Posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 21:57:56
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 21:39:19
Do any of your thoughts/stances on anything go against "science"? Are you a christian? Do you believe any higher being created the Universe? Do you buy into the thought of humans causing global warming? Or flouride causing health problems? Hormones injected into cows not causing any health difference in the consumer when consuming products that come from cows? "Experts" always go on about whole grain bread basically being the best choice for consumers. But what about the phytates ("antinutrients") that whole grains contain in higher amounts that inhibit absorption of certain menerals. On a topic concerning psychiatry, what about when an expert, such as a psychiatrist, prescribes amphetamines to elementary school children on a regular basis? Do you agree with this?
Maybe there are topics where you'd disagree if you understood them more?If you've any stance that goes against widely publicized "science", I'm curious about what it is.
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 24, 2015, at 11:54:07
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on September 23, 2015, at 16:02:07
> I think the analogy was meant to highlight how man's understanding of the Universe evolves using the scientific method rather than pure conjecture. The analogy also demontrates how change is sometimes hard to accept. I try to keep an open mind. I am not always successful.
>
>
> - ScottOh ok. I thought he wanted to explain that the earth was flat;) My brother did :(:(:( Like seriously.
And i dont know what to say to him honestly.
Maybe the craze is a family thing-
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 24, 2015, at 11:58:26
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Lamdage22 on September 24, 2015, at 11:54:07
Sorry for the off topic.
Posted by hello321 on September 24, 2015, at 15:23:26
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Lamdage22 on September 24, 2015, at 11:58:26
LMAO Lamdage that cracks me up about what your brother said. Lol :D
Posted by baseball55 on September 24, 2015, at 20:32:10
In reply to I'll ask you the same » hello321, posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 21:57:56
Probably people's brains differ more than, say, their lungs or kidneys do. But given our poor understanding of how the brain, in general, works, it's hard to fault science for not being able to fully address how one individual's brain, in specific works or differs from the brains of others. I imagine your encephalitis altered your brain in some ways, but does anyone know how? A neurologist, for example.
Also, I'm curious why, if things were going well for you before you started seeing a p-doc and got on psych meds, why did you go to a p-doc and go on psych meds.
I'm not discounting your experience or contesting your own reactions to drugs. I'm just disagreeing that a warning that SSRIs may cause young adults to become homicidal is warranted by evidence.
Posted by hello321 on September 24, 2015, at 20:42:35
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 24, 2015, at 15:23:26
I thought this convo was getting somewhere and having a bit of new life breathed into it just when
babblers stopped posting on it. I'm interested in the thoughts of others on topics like the ones I listed. I was criticized for not buying into everything that's "scientifically proven" *cries* but I'm okay now.But we gotta stand for something even if it is something scientists don't agree with. A step in the right direction of taking a stand for your beliefs is to be open about them when asked about them.
And it's just the internet, what's the worst that could happen if we are open about our beliefs on here? Another unscientific belief I have is in the God that is written about in the Christian Bible.It'll be okay.
Posted by hello321 on September 24, 2015, at 21:04:09
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 16:07:08
Besides, who says psych meds like antidepressants can't cause the taker of them to become more prone to violence? Anyone more trustworthy than the makers of Paxil? Gosh I hope so. I just had my experience with them. And I see the side effects they can have on someone's emotions, that make them more likely to experience emotions that are often experienced leading up to violent acts by people. And then you hear of people committing violent crimes on an AD that's very different from their personality. Some groups blame it on the med. You can't exactly prove it, especially in every case. But when is it going to at least get too hard for the average person to ignore?
Posted by baseball55 on September 24, 2015, at 21:08:57
In reply to I'll ask you the same » hello321, posted by hello321 on September 23, 2015, at 21:57:56
> Do any of your thoughts/stances on anything go against "science"? Are you a christian? Do you believe any higher being created the Universe?
I am not Christian and do not believe in a sentient creator. I am sympathetic to Buddhism and meditate daily. I do not believe in an afterlife.
Do you buy into the thought of humans causing global warming?
I don't "buy into" this. I think it has been shown beyond a reasonable doubt. The IPCC consists of hundreds of scientists, none with an ax to grind. The causal links are clear. CO2 traps heat. This is an established fact. CO2 levels have increased due to fossil fuel use. This is an established fact. The planet has been warming. This is an established fact. Connect the dots. The ONLY scientists who reject this are bought and paid for by the coal and oil industry.
Or flouride causing health problems?
I am unfamiliar with the science here.Hormones injected into cows not causing any health difference in the consumer when consuming products that come from cows?
I don't know much about this. I think scientists believe it is a problem. I have read that girls are entering puberty at earlier ages than in the past and some believe hormones in the diet cause this. Others think the picture is muddied by girls weighing more and having a more secure food supply. I don't read up on this. For myself, I only fed my daughter organic, hormone free meat.
"Experts" always go on about whole grain bread basically being the best choice for consumers. But what about the phytates ("antinutrients") that whole grains contain in higher amounts that inhibit absorption of certain minerals.
I am not knowledgeable about nutrition science. I myself avoid bread and, when I eat it, eat whole grains. Maybe this is wrong. I don't know. The anti-refined grain stuff is more about glucose spikes and how that might affect insulin levels. I find nutrition information confusing. It seems like every couple of years, new studies come out questioning the claims of previous studies. But this is fine. This is the scientific method at work. Science is fluid and dynamic. If one scientist says A causes B, others try to replicate or falsify the result.On a topic concerning psychiatry, what about when an expert, such as a psychiatrist, prescribes amphetamines to elementary school children on a regular basis? Do you agree with this?
It bothers me. Prescribing any psychoactive drug to small children bothers me. And it bothers me that ADHD diagnoses skyrockets and the age of diagnosis has fallen. On the other hand, I was at a party once and this woman started talking about how ADHD was just a wastebasket diagnosis for children who were rambunctious and couldn't sit still in school. After all, she said, what did they do with high-energy children before ritalin and adderall. A child psychiatrist at the party replied, before ritalin and adder all, they had corporal punishment. And I am old enough to remember when teachers routinely beat and humiliated children who couldn't sit still.
> Maybe there are topics where you'd disagree if you understood them more?
Well, that goes without saying.
>
> If you've any stance that goes against widely publicized "science", I'm curious about what it is.
I try to keep up with things, but I can't know everything. I have faith in the scientific process and I know that widely publicized "science" is often cautious, tentative conclusions seized upon by the media and presented as "facts". I am always skeptical of what the mass media says. It is almost never what scientists themselves say. Good scientists publish in peer-reviewed journals and make their data available to other scientists. I am also skeptical about scientific studies done by drug companies for drugs still under patent or recently developed. The entire medical profession, psychiatrists included, is corrupted by this. Even when individual practitioners are not themselves corrupt, they read journals whose articles have been financed by big pharma, without this being sufficiently disclosed. Marcia Angell wrote a very good book about this several years ago. She was a former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine.I had a conversation about this with my p-doc a few years back. He said that he tries to be skeptical, but most of the educational resources and journal articles are paid for by drug companies. That no matter how hard they try to be absolutely ethical, they are influenced by drug companies. He actually tried to organize events in his home that were not funded by drug companies and to get speakers who were not paid by drug companies, but he complained that few people came. Many people come when the event is being held at an expensive restaurant and paid for by a drug company. It's sad and worrisome. But it is not unique to psychiatrists.
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 25, 2015, at 13:16:48
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 24, 2015, at 15:23:26
> LMAO Lamdage that cracks me up about what your brother said. Lol :D
Me too.
Initially i didnt think it was funny but now i guess it is.
He didnt say "IT IS FLAT" he said he thinks its very well possible. I was dumbfounded lol.
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 25, 2015, at 13:19:41
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Lamdage22 on September 25, 2015, at 13:16:48
It is sad that he has so little trust in is fellow human beings. A LOT of people would have to be lying if the earth is really flat.
Posted by hello321 on September 25, 2015, at 15:04:00
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Lamdage22 on September 25, 2015, at 13:19:41
True. Now I'm really curious how old he is? I've realized we all have our own interests. And lieing/cheating can sometimes be the only way to accomplish our goals. Lol but I'm not sure what anyone would accomplish by lying about the shape of the earth???
Posted by hello321 on September 25, 2015, at 15:59:09
In reply to Re: I'll ask you the same, posted by baseball55 on September 24, 2015, at 21:08:57
I had basically started seeing a psychiatrist because at age 17 I thought my problems were bigger than they really were. I remember my dad telling me to be careful with the "powerful medicine" I was prescribed. But I figured it wouldn't be much of a problem if I simply took it as prescribed. Long story short, I was wrong. Meds were the last thing I needed and I'm positive I wouldn't have to be on SSDI today if I had strictly seen the therapist instead of a psychiatrist as well when I first sought mental healthcare.
I guess its like how they say "you never know what you got til it's gone."
But I try to be a Christian and believe, but ever since meds had their effect on me, I'm not really able to feel "spiritual". I'm not certain about global warming. I'm leaning towards it being real and caused by humans, but I guess I still need to read into it some more myself.
I know on every gallon of milk it has a statement saying something along the lines of "no difference has been shown between milk from cows treated and not treated with hormones" at least it says this on the jugs where I live.
People talk of negative effects from fluoride on our mental health. I'm not sure I buy into this thought.
I've read on what are referred to as phytates in breads. If I remember correctly, phytates are found in the largest amounts in whole grain breads, with white breads being much lower (if they contain phytates at all). But one effect phytate have is to decrease the absorption of minerals in our bodies. I switched to whole grains a few years ago and lately I've noticed I've developed two cavities. So now I'm considering the phytate in my bread might have played role in this. But the only bread the officials recommend is whole grain bread. Maybe I wouldn't have any cavities if I had stuck with white bread. Who knows.... But still, whole grains are advertised by various agencies to be the best choice.
And concerning adderall or any other psychoactive med being prescribed to little children... doctors and drug companies got the "go ahead" to use these chemicals on little kids because of "studies" where they were shown to be safe and effective in this age group. Probably not a process much more thorough than studies showing these meds haven't played a role in a person's violent thoughts or actions. But I suppose I could be wrong.
Posted by SLS on September 25, 2015, at 17:13:51
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Lamdage22, posted by hello321 on September 25, 2015, at 15:04:00
> True. Now I'm really curious how old he is? I've realized we all have our own interests. And lieing/cheating can sometimes be the only way to accomplish our goals. Lol but I'm not sure what anyone would accomplish by lying about the shape of the earth???
It's easier to draw maps.
- Scott
Posted by hello321 on September 25, 2015, at 18:20:44
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2015, at 17:13:51
At least the CDC has seen it reasonable to list "brain damage" as a rare side effect for some vaccines. Tho it does also say brain damage from vaccines is so rare that it is hard to tell if it is indeed the vaccines causing it.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#jeixiaro
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 26, 2015, at 5:41:30
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Lamdage22, posted by hello321 on September 25, 2015, at 15:04:00
> True. Now I'm really curious how old he is? I've realized we all have our own interests. And lieing/cheating can sometimes be the only way to accomplish our goals. Lol but I'm not sure what anyone would accomplish by lying about the shape of the earth???
He is roughly 50.
Posted by hello321 on September 28, 2015, at 10:58:28
In reply to Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?offtopic, posted by Lamdage22 on September 26, 2015, at 5:41:30
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/business/27drug.html?ref=topics
These companies swim in billions of dollars, yet they still fail to keep their sh!t together. They operate under lies, and many in this world still feel a need to stand up for them. Our children swallow their tainted medications, and many still feel concerned enough to dissect every word of criticism directed at these companies in an attempt to discredit it.
Maybe it is time to stop asking just WTF is wrong with drug companies, and instead start asking Americans what the hell is wrong with them?
Posted by bleauberry on October 3, 2015, at 6:56:54
In reply to Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 15, 2015, at 21:57:16
During my long war with depression, I came to discover that the emotional numbing aspect of antidepressants was just as much of a decrease in quality of life as was the depression itself. Both were very bad, except in different ways.
I can easily see how psych drugs, through emotional numbing or through rage/irritation, could boost criminal activity. On one hand, the patient just no longer cares, numbed out, nothing really matters, no depression but no joy either. Or with rage, irritation, agitation, which are common side effects, and otherwise nice person could get nasty.
Posted by elanor roosevelt on November 4, 2015, at 15:49:05
In reply to Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 15, 2015, at 21:57:16
one should consider a relationship of criminal activity and a feeling that you have nothing left to lose
Posted by hello321 on November 5, 2015, at 13:34:14
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by elanor roosevelt on November 4, 2015, at 15:49:05
Everything should be considered. And we should have had a much clearer picture on this, considering how long these treatments have been given to millions of people. But for what ever reason, no conclusion has been arrived at. Wonder why that is.
This is the end of the thread.
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