![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2013, at 15:34:02
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » tensor, posted by brynb on January 18, 2013, at 13:52:09
I honestly don't know I feel it's a personal decision. As I can't feel what you feel. Phillipa
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 18, 2013, at 15:57:43
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » tensor, posted by brynb on January 18, 2013, at 13:52:09
I say docs should think out of the box. Stims & pain meds were used for depression back in the day; they may not work permanently, they may cause addiction, but they may just provide some relief too.
>
> just my two cents.
>
> bWell said, Bryn! Addiction is bad, yeah, but it's a helluva lot better than suicide.
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 18, 2013, at 16:05:32
In reply to Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by tensor on January 18, 2013, at 13:20:34
tensor, I will say you bring up some interesting questions. But just fyi, many, many of us have been severely depressed for not just a couple of years, but for *decades* Sure, some moments when one drug or another kicks in and helps for a while...but then they always poop out on you. Given this info, you will probably find that most on this board believe there should be no limit as to which class of med is used b/c they have literally tried every other drug or therapy that's out there and are still in pain.
I hope that's not in store for you, it makes for one hard life, that's for sure. Hopefully your dip will be short and you can have the productive life you want. I would not wish the severe, decades-long, treatment-resistant depression that I and many others here have on my worst enemy. Good luck to you. Oh, and Breaking Bad was an excellent show.
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 18, 2013, at 16:59:03
In reply to Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by tensor on January 18, 2013, at 13:20:34
oh and one addendum...I don't think most people who suffer severe depression consider themselves couch potatoes. that implies laziness. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I consider myself a warrior who fights bravely through each and every day, despite the fact that it can often seem that the odds are insurmountable. Recently, when I was on a wash prior to Nardil, I told my husband that if it didn't work it was gonna be either suicide or heroin addiction for me. Well it didn't work. Thankfully I'm still alive and heroin-free. I do take Ritalin, and it helps a bit, but it's up and down. Sometimes, like tonight, I just feel so desperate for something that would truly offer me complete relief. Sigh
Kat
Posted by schleprock on January 18, 2013, at 17:20:04
In reply to Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by tensor on January 18, 2013, at 13:20:34
tensor, I believe you need more help than this forum can provide.
Posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 2:28:49
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by schleprock on January 18, 2013, at 17:20:04
> tensor, I believe you need more help than this forum can provide.
Don't we all? ;-)
Posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 3:05:39
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » tensor, posted by ChicagoKat on January 18, 2013, at 16:59:03
>tensor, I will say you bring up some interesting questions. But just fyi, many, many of us have been severely depressed for not just a couple of years, but for *decades* Sure, some moments when one drug or another kicks in and helps for a while...but then they always poop out on you. Given this info, you will probably find that most on this board believe there should be no limit as to which class of med is used b/c they have literally tried every other drug or therapy that's out there and are still in pain.
I hope that's not in store for you, it makes for one hard life, that's for sure. Hopefully your dip will be short and you can have the productive life you want. I would not wish the severe, decades-long, treatment-resistant depression that I and many others here have on my worst enemy. Good luck to you. Oh, and Breaking Bad was an excellent show.Hi Kat!
Unfortunately I have treatment-resistant/refractory depression that is recurring and been suffering from this all my life, and been medicating for the last sixteen years. Conventional ADs does not help anymore. I'm a firm believer that pure biological depressions exist as the episodes suddenly come out of nowhere. I know I had episodes in my childhood where I was tired and not up to par with other children and I didn't eat enough. I also remember I had panic attacks when I was as young as six-seven years old, can you imagine how terrified I was?
I didn't dare tell anyone either because I was afraid something was wrong with (weird logic, I know) me. Sometimes I wonder what they would have done if I had told about it.>oh and one addendum...I don't think most people who suffer severe depression consider themselves couch potatoes. that implies laziness. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I consider myself a warrior who fights bravely through each and every day, despite the fact that it can often seem that the odds are insurmountable. Recently, when I was on a wash prior to Nardil, I told my husband that if it didn't work it was gonna be either suicide or heroin addiction for me. Well it didn't work. Thankfully I'm still alive and heroin-free. I do take Ritalin, and it helps a bit, but it's up and down. Sometimes, like tonight, I just feel so desperate for something that would truly offer me complete relief. Sigh
KatI wasn't implying laziness, but the couch is where I end up if the depression becomes severe enough. It makes me sad to hear your story and I know how it hurts. Are you on Nardil now?
Depression/anxiety are not like other diseases, they simply do not have the same 'status' in other (healthy) people's eyes as diseases that are visible, may it be to the naked eye or to x-ray. This makes it even harder to be on sick leave, I get these feelings of guilt and that some people just think I'm lazy or 'weak'.
Sometimes I feel like going to work and put my meds on a table and dare anyone to take them at the doses I do and ask them if they think I'm taking them for fun./tensor
Posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 3:24:32
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » tensor, posted by brynb on January 18, 2013, at 13:52:09
> tensor-
>
> I'm sitting here preparing to go inpatient due to my 19th nervous breakdown.
>
> there should be no limit when it comes to prescribing drugs that provide people w/ a better quality of life and relief from pain. I used to use a lot of addictive substances, irresponsibly, but only bc my anxiety & depression were beyond control. so I say docs should think out of the box. Stims & pain meds were used for depression back in the day; they may not work permanently, they may cause addiction, but they may just provide some relief too.
>
> just my two cents.
>
> bI think benzos have an unjust reputation. Out of all classes of meds in the psychiatric field, in my opinion, they are the ones that always work, and they work fast. They are reliable and cheap and their side effect profile is pretty easy on you. Can you say that about e.g. SSRIs?
The dependence 'thing' that is always brought up by pdocs to the extent that it's not worth prescribing them to you and get you the relief you need because of dependence.
Sure they cause dependence. I have quit cigarettes and smokeless tobacco a couple of times and that was alot harder than coming of clonazepam, which I have done a couple of times successfully.
I agree, it's all about quality of life./tensor
Posted by In_denial on January 19, 2013, at 13:39:28
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » brynb, posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 3:24:32
Hang in there tensor,
I tend to feel a certain amount of envy toward people that seem happy and well adjusted. I know it's wrong, but I can't help this feeling. I'm constantly wondering why I was dealt a sh*tty hand in life. Then I look at the suffering going on throughout the world and feel that my problems pale in comparison.
I've often wondered what evolutionary purpose depression, anxiety and all the other mental illnesses served prehistoric man. Was it to cull out the weaker humans? I doubt it. I think it's a modern phenomenon to our current environment. I don't think our prehistoric brains evolved to be confined to a cubicle, following a boring routine of working to old age, retiring and ultimate death. Our brains still think we are hunter gathers. Seems like people that live closer to nature and have simpler lives are happier in general. Since that's not in the cards for me, I'm stuck with pharmaceuticals.
Posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 14:45:49
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by In_denial on January 19, 2013, at 13:39:28
> Hang in there tensor,
Thanks.
> I tend to feel a certain amount of envy toward people that seem happy and well adjusted. I know it's wrong, but I can't help this feeling. I'm constantly wondering why I was dealt a sh*tty hand in life. Then I look at the suffering going on throughout the world and feel that my problems pale in comparison.I know what you mean, it seems so simple for healthy people.
> I've often wondered what evolutionary purpose depression, anxiety and all the other mental illnesses served prehistoric man. Was it to cull out the weaker humans? I doubt it. I think it's a modern phenomenon to our current environment. I don't think our prehistoric brains evolved to be confined to a cubicle, following a boring routine of working to old age, retiring and ultimate death. Our brains still think we are hunter gathers. Seems like people that live closer to nature and have simpler lives are happier in general. Since that's not in the cards for me, I'm stuck with pharmaceuticals.
I'm not sure. I wonder if the prevalence of, say, schizophrenia has changed over the millennia. Psychiatric disorders that are biological have probably always been around. But sufferers of depression and anxiety caused by our lifestyle are probably much higher now than a thousand years ago.
To be honest, being a hunter gatherer would bore me to death. But that's because I know how comfortable life can be. One could argue that with all the entertainment around people would be happier today. People who live in tribes in the djungle also use drugs to intoxicate themselves./tensor
Posted by In_denial on January 19, 2013, at 15:49:10
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » In_denial, posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 14:45:49
> I wonder if the prevalence of, say, schizophrenia has changed over the millennia. Psychiatric disorders that are biological have probably always been around. But sufferers of depression and anxiety caused by our lifestyle are probably much higher now than a thousand years ago.You're probably right. In a small tribe, a person exhibiting these types of behaviors would probably be revered and likely become the medicine man or witch doctor. In that case they filled a societal need.
> To be honest, being a hunter gatherer would bore me to death. But that's because I know how comfortable life can be. .>
Im on the fence with this. When you live and die by your ability to hunt and find food, I don't think boredom would be in the vocabulary. Those people are truly living in the moment. If you're hungry, go catch a fish or find berries. Tired, go to sleep. Time should be irrelevant to them. When their bellies are full, they are free to do exactly as they wish, including ingesting intoxicating herbs.
>One could argue that with all the entertainment around people would be happier today.>
I wish it had that effect on me. For me, I think technology is over stimulating and my mind shuts down. It's like white noise for me. I can stare at the tv or surf on the Internet for hours on end...wishing I was doing something else. Just not sure what that something else should be :(
Posted by sigismund on January 19, 2013, at 19:01:40
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by In_denial on January 19, 2013, at 15:49:10
The accepted idea here (Australian Aborigines) is they spent a few hours a day (no more) finding food.
They controlled their population and maintained the ecosystems making it easy.
Posted by hyperfocus on January 20, 2013, at 10:03:35
In reply to Is there a limit? *trigger*, posted by tensor on January 18, 2013, at 13:20:34
> I can't speak for anyone else except for me, but in my age and situation it is kind of obvious that either I manage to work, have a life, get a woman, family etc. or I'll be spending my life on the couch with no future and great bitterness. Yes, it is that bad for me and sadly for many of us. Have you seen the great show 'Breaking Bad'? I have seen every episode. That show made me think, how far am I prepared to go to not end up as a couch potato?
I have a few questions which I hope you would be willing answer:
1. Do people who avoid adversity and illness in life do so through their own efforts? The people who have the things you (we all, myself included) want, do you believe they achieved it solely through their strength and bravery and hard work?
2. Do you know of anyone, personally or anecdotally, who did not suffer through an extended period of adversity and illness at some point in their life, be it at age 7 or 70?
3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say in your life you never suffer from any mental illness. Through your hard work and charisma you become a hugely successful business owner and use your business savvy and connections and influence to have your biggest competitor shutdown and nearly a hundred employees, many of them middle-aged and with families, put out of work.
You get married to the girl of your dreams. Your irresistible good looks and wealth however allow you to acquire and maintain several girlfriends who your wife may or may not know about.
Your sons and daughters never want for anything in their life and grow up to be the kind of kids you see in shows like MTV's Sweet Sixteen or like the Kardashians.If this were your life, as it is for many people, would you trade it for the one you have now and the couch potato future you fear?
4. People who suffer great adversity in life and survive it, how are they traditionally described? Are there qualities and understanding you have now that you would not have had your life been different?
5. Could you describe your experience with stimulants and benzos and narcotics as it relates to where your thoughts are centered during the day? Are your thoughts centered on the current day or hour or minute? How is this experience different from when you are in the depths of a depressive episode?
Posted by tensor on January 20, 2013, at 11:38:46
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » tensor, posted by hyperfocus on January 20, 2013, at 10:03:35
I have a few questions which I hope you would be willing answer:
Ill try my best.
1. Do people who avoid adversity and illness in life do so through their own efforts? The people who have the things you (we all, myself included) want, do you believe they achieved it solely through their strength and bravery and hard work?
You phrase your questions to be answered 'yes' or 'no'. I do not believe it is that simple, as a matter a fact I'm convinced it isn't. Illness in life can be avoided to certain extent by lifestyle, good diet, exercise, no smoking etc. The thing I want is to be free from depression and anxiety, if that was to happen, I could and would work hard. I believe health and hard work can get you anywhere.
2. Do you know of anyone, personally or anecdotally, who did not suffer through an extended period of adversity and illness at some point in their life, be it at age 7 or 70?
Yes.
3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say in your life you never suffer from any mental illness. Through your hard work and charisma you become a hugely successful business owner and use your business savvy and connections and influence to have your biggest competitor shutdown and nearly a hundred employees, many of them middle-aged and with families, put out of work.
You get married to the girl of your dreams. Your irresistible good looks and wealth however allow you to acquire and maintain several girlfriends who your wife may or may not know about.
Your sons and daughters never want for anything in their life and grow up to be the kind of kids you see in shows like MTV's Sweet Sixteen or like the Kardashians. If this were your life, as it is for many people, would you trade it for the one you have now and the couch potato future you fear?Are you a lawyer? Talk about extremes. I don't want fame. Being able to work is what I want.
4. People who suffer great adversity in life and survive it, how are they traditionally described? Are there qualities and understanding you have now that you would not have had your life been different?
I see what you are getting at. Yes, people who have an adversity like a great loss or suffer a disease that is curable and survive and walk away from it are probably described as strong. But how about chronic depression and anxiety and other psychiatric disorder that cannot be cured? You just don't come out of that one day, brush your shoulders and say 'phew' that was a tough one, and then live happily ever after. It's with you, every single day, with symptomatic relief now and then.
If I never had my illness I would not know as much about psychopharmacology as I know now. And that's about it, and I'm not even being sarcastic.5. Could you describe your experience with stimulants and benzos and narcotics as it relates to where your thoughts are centered during the day? Are your thoughts centered on the current day or hour or minute? How is this experience different from when you are in the depths of a depressive episode?
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
A question to you: Is there a point to all of this./tensor
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 20, 2013, at 12:57:11
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » ChicagoKat, posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 3:05:39
> >tensor, I will say you bring up some interesting questions. But just fyi, many, many of us have been severely depressed for not just a couple of years, but for *decades* Sure, some moments when one drug or another kicks in and helps for a while...but then they always poop out on you. Given this info, you will probably find that most on this board believe there should be no limit as to which class of med is used b/c they have literally tried every other drug or therapy that's out there and are still in pain.
> I hope that's not in store for you, it makes for one hard life, that's for sure. Hopefully your dip will be short and you can have the productive life you want. I would not wish the severe, decades-long, treatment-resistant depression that I and many others here have on my worst enemy. Good luck to you. Oh, and Breaking Bad was an excellent show.
>
> Hi Kat!
> Unfortunately I have treatment-resistant/refractory depression that is recurring and been suffering from this all my life, and been medicating for the last sixteen years. Conventional ADs does not help anymore. I'm a firm believer that pure biological depressions exist as the episodes suddenly come out of nowhere. I know I had episodes in my childhood where I was tired and not up to par with other children and I didn't eat enough. I also remember I had panic attacks when I was as young as six-seven years old, can you imagine how terrified I was?
> I didn't dare tell anyone either because I was afraid something was wrong with (weird logic, I know) me. Sometimes I wonder what they would have done if I had told about it.
>
> >oh and one addendum...I don't think most people who suffer severe depression consider themselves couch potatoes. that implies laziness. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I consider myself a warrior who fights bravely through each and every day, despite the fact that it can often seem that the odds are insurmountable. Recently, when I was on a wash prior to Nardil, I told my husband that if it didn't work it was gonna be either suicide or heroin addiction for me. Well it didn't work. Thankfully I'm still alive and heroin-free. I do take Ritalin, and it helps a bit, but it's up and down. Sometimes, like tonight, I just feel so desperate for something that would truly offer me complete relief. Sigh
> Kat
>
> I wasn't implying laziness, but the couch is where I end up if the depression becomes severe enough. It makes me sad to hear your story and I know how it hurts. Are you on Nardil now?
> Depression/anxiety are not like other diseases, they simply do not have the same 'status' in other (healthy) people's eyes as diseases that are visible, may it be to the naked eye or to x-ray. This makes it even harder to be on sick leave, I get these feelings of guilt and that some people just think I'm lazy or 'weak'.
> Sometimes I feel like going to work and put my meds on a table and dare anyone to take them at the doses I do and ask them if they think I'm taking them for fun.
>
> /tensorHi Tensor!
Sorry to imply you did not understand what trd is. Sounds like you're fighting justs as hard as most of us are. I do hope you find a great, workable solution.
When I'm really, really down, I end up in bed, hiding from the world. Can't even tolerate TV. Nope, Nardil helped until I started suffering falls from it. Later tried Parnate which gave me Rhabdomyolysis and nearly killed me.
For now, I'm sticking with Ritalin, and it's new anti-anxiety, mood-stabilizing sidekick Tegretol until they come out with something NEW and that really WORKS and doesnt KILL people.
Oh, and do I know about the stigma that is alive and well. Even within my own family. I've been in the hospital lately for a lot of various physical ailments (everything hit at once!) and I could not BELIEVE the outpouring of sympathy, compassion and love I got from my family during that time. I've never received even a small fraction of that support from my own loving family when it comes to my emotional pain. Which is much, much worse, in my opinion. I've learned the hard way to look for support from other depressives, from those people who GET IT. Thank God for Babble.
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 20, 2013, at 13:04:02
In reply to Re: Is there a limit? *trigger* » brynb, posted by tensor on January 19, 2013, at 3:24:32
> > tensor-
> >
> > I'm sitting here preparing to go inpatient due to my 19th nervous breakdown.
> >
> > there should be no limit when it comes to prescribing drugs that provide people w/ a better quality of life and relief from pain. I used to use a lot of addictive substances, irresponsibly, but only bc my anxiety & depression were beyond control. so I say docs should think out of the box. Stims & pain meds were used for depression back in the day; they may not work permanently, they may cause addiction, but they may just provide some relief too.
> >
> > just my two cents.
> >
> > b
>
> I think benzos have an unjust reputation. Out of all classes of meds in the psychiatric field, in my opinion, they are the ones that always work, and they work fast. They are reliable and cheap and their side effect profile is pretty easy on you. Can you say that about e.g. SSRIs?
> The dependence 'thing' that is always brought up by pdocs to the extent that it's not worth prescribing them to you and get you the relief you need because of dependence.
> Sure they cause dependence. I have quit cigarettes and smokeless tobacco a couple of times and that was alot harder than coming of clonazepam, which I have done a couple of times successfully.
> I agree, it's all about quality of life.
>
> /tensorWARNING: the following has a religious theme. If you are easily offended feel free to stop reading now.
I am an agnostic. And I have decided that if there IS a God, he or she is messing with us. To create such beautiful effective substances as benzos, but then to add the tolerance and addiction issues. I'm different than a lot of people; I reach a certain dose of a benzo above which it would not be physically safe to go. So the drug is stopped. I suffer absolutely no withdrawal. But if the same drug is started again - even a year later - My body is STILL at the same level of tolerance. I asked my pdoc about it and he said, though this effect is rare, it definitely does happen, and they have absolutely no idea why. So, since it would pretty much take half a bottle of ativan to affect me, and because I kinda like my liver, benzos are out for me. Forever.
Kat
Posted by hyperfocus on January 21, 2013, at 13:48:39
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » hyperfocus, posted by tensor on January 20, 2013, at 11:38:46
>Illness in life can be avoided to certain extent by lifestyle, good diet, exercise, no smoking etc. The thing I want is to be free from depression and anxiety, if that was to happen, I could and would work hard. I believe health and hard work can get you anywhere.
>
This is not true for most serious illnesses. I think everybody who is fortunate enough not to develop something like depression or cancer or meningitis likes to believe something like this, but it just isn't the case. Serious illness and disability can and does strike anybody at anytime. The people who are fortunate to be healthy and able to work and stuff are just that -- fortunate in some way. You did not choose your genes and how your brain develops nor the circumstances that precipitated your mental illness. Prevention and hard work can't protect you from a lot of things in this life.>
> 2. Do you know of anyone, personally or anecdotally, who did not suffer through an extended period of adversity and illness at some point in their life, be it at age 7 or 70?
>
> Yes.
>
lol ok, well I personally don't. Seems to me that everybody who has lived a long life undergoes some extended period where they are partially or totally disabled and must endure pain and loneliness and hardship. When you're young it seems like incredibly unfair that you have to endure all this while others progress with their life. But illness, disability, adversity, poverty all of that stuff are part of the human experience. There aren't many humans in history who have managed to avoid things like what you're going through, no matter how much money they had for medication or doctors. You're not any different from the vast majority of mankind, is what I'm getting at.
MTV's Sweet Sixteen or like the Kardashians. If this were your life, as it is for many people, would you trade it for the one you have now and the couch potato future you fear?
>
> Are you a lawyer? Talk about extremes. I don't want fame. Being able to work is what I want.
>
Yes but I think being able to work isn't sufficient for living a good life or being truly happy. People who are able to work and have everything turn out well for them a lot of the time end up doing really stupid and bad things and hurting a lot of people and ruining the lives of people who love them.There are friends who I grew up with and they're not famous but they have careers and are married and successful. And a lot of the things they do and the ways they see things and especially the ways they treat others like their wives and husbands and mothers and fathers and sibling baffle me. I don't have a lot but I think I'd rather be poor and sick than live my life like that. And I'd rather my kids be poor and understand certain things about life than the other way.
A lot of the time being poor and sick makes you see other people differently. It shows you the things that matter in life -- makes you understand the value of compassion and kindness and unselfishness. In a lot of ways you become a better person.
> But how about chronic depression and anxiety and other psychiatric disorder that cannot be cured? You just don't come out of that one day, brush your shoulders and say 'phew' that was a tough one, and then live happily ever after. It's with you, every single day, with symptomatic relief now and then.
> If I never had my illness I would not know as much about psychopharmacology as I know now. And that's about it, and I'm not even being sarcastic.
>
>
I know it's a terrible thing to have a potentially uncurable disease. For 20+ years I have been struggling and have become cynical and bitter and hopeless as anybody. I just came to the realization that in many ways I am a better person because of my illness. That pain and suffering and loneliness are not by far the worst things that can happen to a human being and that it can be overcome. And that what I am going through is part of the human condition and offers a potential path to a better life.
> 5. Could you describe your experience with stimulants and benzos and narcotics as it relates to where your thoughts are centered during the day? Are your thoughts centered on the current day or hour or minute? How is this experience different from when you are in the depths of a depressive episode?
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
>
When I'm having a dysphoric episode my thoughts and emotions always swirl around events in my past or my non-existent hopes for the future. The effects of these types of drugs on me has always been primarily to focus my mind more on the things in the present situation.I'm concerned about your belief that meds will get your life better and make you able to work. I think that putting the locus of control of your inner experience on medication like this isn't a long-term viable solution. It's more pragmatic than idealistic -- what happens when the meds that work poop out? It's like trading one type of slavery for another.
> A question to you: Is there a point to all of this.
>Well the point I'm getting at is that there's a lot of stuff in life we can't control and a little bit of stuff we can; and the little bit is what's important. That maybe what you're going through now isn't just a curse but a method of discovering the important and meaningful things in life and how to work better.
The things we hold on to in this life will all pass. When we die they're not going to matter to anyone else. But it does matter what you believe, how you treat others, and what you leave behind. People like us tend to have an idealized view of life without depression and anxiety but the truth is a lot of who people never have depression and anxiety work hard get married have kids and all that and end up doing really terrible, stupid, evil things.
People who have depression and anxiety or any chronic illness are forced to confront realities of human life that not everyone gets the opportunity to face. And it is a terrible and frightening and painful thing but it can also be a good thing. Nobody recovers from any major debilitating illness or disability and isn't a significantly better person for the experience
No medication can change our past and they certainly can't change our brain significantly by them selves. Recovery from depression may not be the case where you wake up one morning with your dopamine and serotonin and norepinepherine levels normal. It's possible you can just learn to do what you want in life despite the neurochemical signals your defective brain is sending you. And it is possible that you what you want in life will be things that are more important and more meaningful because of this terrible experience.
Posted by tensor on January 22, 2013, at 1:00:11
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » tensor, posted by hyperfocus on January 21, 2013, at 13:48:39
Ok, the tone you set, or as I preceived it, in your first message offended me a bit, but I see now that was not your intention.
>Illness in life can be avoided to certain extent by lifestyle, good diet, exercise, no smoking etc. The thing I want is to be free from depression and anxiety, if that was to happen, I could and would work hard. I believe health and hard work can get you anywhere.
>
>This is not true for most serious illnesses. I think everybody who is fortunate enough not to develop something like depression or cancer or meningitis likes to believe something like this, but it just isn't the case. Serious illness and disability can and does strike anybody at anytime. The people who are fortunate to be healthy and able to work and stuff are just that -- fortunate in some way. You did not choose your genes and how your brain develops nor the circumstances that precipitated your mental illness. Prevention and hard work can't protect you from a lot of things in this life.I think a healthy lifestyle can alter the odds in your favor. As an example, losing weight and exercising can prevent diabetes and cardiovascular problems. And I think, with support of literature in this matter, exercise can be very helpful in depression and anxiety, maybe not much so for biological depression, but for depression that are of more psychological nature caused by stress, loss and other circumtances. But sure, illnesses can happen to everyone, no one is safe, but the feeling alone, that you're actively trying to do something, may have a positive effect.
>
> 2. Do you know of anyone, personally or anecdotally, who did not suffer through an extended period of adversity and illness at some point in their life, be it at age 7 or 70?
>
> Yes.
>
>lol ok, well I personally don't. Seems to me that everybody who has lived a long life undergoes some extended period where they are partially or totally disabled and must endure pain and loneliness and hardship. When you're young it seems like incredibly unfair that you have to endure all this while others progress with their life. But illness, disability, adversity, poverty all of that stuff are part of the human experience. There aren't many humans in history who have managed to avoid things like what you're going through, no matter how much money they had for medication or doctors. You're not any different from the vast majority of mankind, is what I'm getting at.To me, this feels like a way of coping with reality. Nothing wrong with that. Acceptance? I have had time pondering over things like this. I do understand that there are people who suffers more than I do. But that doesn't make it easier for me. I'm not going to accept this and get comfortable feeling this way, for me that would be giving up. I read somewhere that everybody falls but it is how well we rise that defines us.
MTV's Sweet Sixteen or like the Kardashians. If this were your life, as it is for many people, would you trade it for the one you have now and the couch potato future you fear?
>
> Are you a lawyer? Talk about extremes. I don't want fame. Being able to work is what I want.
>
>Yes but I think being able to work isn't sufficient for living a good life or being truly happy. People who are able to work and have everything turn out well for them a lot of the time end up doing really stupid and bad things and hurting a lot of people and ruining the lives of people who love them.But you do agree that it is a good thing being able to pull your own weight? Ok, it's not enough for everybody but it's good start. What you are saying is that we should not strive for a fruitful life because in the end it does more harm than good? It sounds to me that the optimum scenario would be to not exist at all because that way we certainly can't hurt people or do stupid things. Doesn't this contradict what you were saying above, that this is part of the human experience?
>There are friends who I grew up with and they're not famous but they have careers and are married and successful. And a lot of the things they do and the ways they see things and especially the ways they treat others like their wives and husbands and mothers and fathers and sibling baffle me. I don't have a lot but I think I'd rather be poor and sick than live my life like that. And I'd rather my kids be poor and understand certain things about life than the other way.
Is being successful and understanding things in life mutually exclusive?
>A lot of the time being poor and sick makes you see other people differently. It shows you the things that matter in life -- makes you understand the value of compassion and kindness and unselfishness. In a lot of ways you become a better person.
I agree with this. But to me it feels like you need to get well and socialize to have any real benefits of this understanding. I do see what matter in life, it's just that I can't reach them due to my illness. I don't think I'm asking for much, just a fair shot at life.
> But how about chronic depression and anxiety and other psychiatric disorder that cannot be cured? You just don't come out of that one day, brush your shoulders and say 'phew' that was a tough one, and then live happily ever after. It's with you, every single day, with symptomatic relief now and then.
> If I never had my illness I would not know as much about psychopharmacology as I know now. And that's about it, and I'm not even being sarcastic.
>
>
>I know it's a terrible thing to have a potentially uncurable disease. For 20+ years I have been struggling and have become cynical and bitter and hopeless as anybody. I just came to the realization that in many ways I am a better person because of my illness. That pain and suffering and loneliness are not by far the worst things that can happen to a human being and that it can be overcome. And that what I am going through is part of the human condition and offers a potential path to a better life.We are on the same page here. But.. you know it's like thinking and philosophizing about life, like a shaolin-monk or something. When you get it, how life should be lived, you're are eighty years old. This is an exaggeration but I think you get my idea. What's the point of learning if it can't be practiced? It's like being an art student ;-)
> 5. Could you describe your experience with stimulants and benzos and narcotics as it relates to where your thoughts are centered during the day? Are your thoughts centered on the current day or hour or minute? How is this experience different from when you are in the depths of a depressive episode?
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
>>When I'm having a dysphoric episode my thoughts and emotions always swirl around events in my past or my non-existent hopes for the future. The effects of these types of drugs on me has always been primarily to focus my mind more on the things in the present situation.
>I'm concerned about your belief that meds will get your life better and make you able to work. I think that putting the locus of control of your inner experience on medication like this isn't a long-term viable solution. It's more pragmatic than idealistic -- what happens when the meds that work poop out? It's like trading one type of slavery for another.
This medication thing is far from optimal, I think everybody agrees with that. Yes, I have always had too much belief in medications, but that is over now. And yes I tend to focus on the past and the future rather than the present, atleast when I'm ill. But I also think mindfulness, ACT, CBT and whatnot are overrated for biological depression.
> A question to you: Is there a point to all of this.
>>Well the point I'm getting at is that there's a lot of stuff in life we can't control and a little bit of stuff we can; and the little bit is what's important. That maybe what you're going through now isn't just a curse but a method of discovering the important and meaningful things in life and how to work better.
>The things we hold on to in this life will all pass. When we die they're not going to matter to anyone else. But it does matter what you believe, how you treat others, and what you leave behind. People like us tend to have an idealized view of life without depression and anxiety but the truth is a lot of who people never have depression and anxiety work hard get married have kids and all that and end up doing really terrible, stupid, evil things.
>People who have depression and anxiety or any chronic illness are forced to confront realities of human life that not everyone gets the opportunity to face. And it is a terrible and frightening and painful thing but it can also be a good thing. Nobody recovers from any major debilitating illness or disability and isn't a significantly better person for the experience
>No medication can change our past and they certainly can't change our brain significantly by them selves. Recovery from depression may not be the case where you wake up one morning with your dopamine and serotonin and norepinepherine levels normal. It's possible you can just learn to do what you want in life despite the neurochemical signals your defective brain is sending you. And it is possible that you what you want in life will be things that are more important and more meaningful because of this terrible experience.
Thanks for your encouraging words. I have had so many depressive episodes in my life and a sustained remission is not likely. I hope you are right and it's certainly possible. Í have worked so hard with myself during my remission that it really takes a toll on me to suddenly lose the ability to work and exercise, more than it has done before.
Thanks for taking the time and effort of writing this.
/tensor
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2013, at 3:27:58
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » hyperfocus, posted by tensor on January 22, 2013, at 1:00:11
Nice exchange, guys.
> I have had so many depressive episodes in my life and a sustained remission is not likely.
That might appear true inductively, but perhaps not deductively. A long history of treatment failures sets an empirical trend, but not an absolute certainty. I don't think you can conclude deductively that a sustained remission is unlikely until you have exhausted all treatment possibilities. While I haven't reached full remission yet, my robust response to my current treatment regime has been a surprise to me; this, after 30 years of treatment failures. I cannot say with certainty that you are likely to respond to prazosin or minocycline, but it is certain that you cannot pronounce yourself untreatable until you do.
I guess that seems like a rather cold approach to using logic. However, in my mind, it makes sense. It has been one of the major reasons that I have not taken my own life. I find sighted hope to be more compelling than blind hope, so I educated myself in order to find it.
An interesting mix might include Lamictal, Abilify, minocycline, and Wellbutrin. This treatment proposition is not necessarily designed with you in mind. I don't recall your symptoms or treatment history. However, it is an example of a new way of using old drugs. Polypharmacy may be necessary in your case until new treatments emerge from medical science.
You are a hard worker, and you deserve to win.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2013, at 4:10:17
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » tensor, posted by SLS on January 22, 2013, at 3:27:58
> Nice exchange, guys.
>
> > I have had so many depressive episodes in my life and a sustained remission is not likely.
>
> That might appear true inductively, but perhaps not deductively. A long history of treatment failures sets an empirical trend, but not an absolute certainty. I don't think you can conclude deductively that a sustained remission is unlikely until you have exhausted all treatment possibilities. While I haven't reached full remission yet, my robust response to my current treatment regime has been a surprise to me; this, after 30 years of treatment failures. I cannot say with certainty that you are likely to respond to prazosin or minocycline, but it is certain that you cannot pronounce yourself untreatable until you do.
>
> I guess that seems like a rather cold approach to using logic. However, in my mind, it makes sense. It has been one of the major reasons that I have not taken my own life. I find sighted hope to be more compelling than blind hope, so I educated myself in order to find it.
>
> An interesting mix might include Lamictal, Abilify, minocycline, and Wellbutrin. This treatment proposition is not necessarily designed with you in mind. I don't recall your symptoms or treatment history. However, it is an example of a new way of using old drugs. Polypharmacy may be necessary in your case until new treatments emerge from medical science.
>
> You are a hard worker, and you deserve to win.
>
>
> - Scott
>Friends,
Be advised that the mix of chemicals that are listed here could kill you if you take them. There is also the risk of increasing seizures and the risk of CNS depression that could lead to death.
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal-and-abilify/death
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2013, at 4:17:04
In reply to Lou's warning-dhthfrmdrgz, posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2013, at 4:10:17
> > Nice exchange, guys.
> >
> > > I have had so many depressive episodes in my life and a sustained remission is not likely.
> >
> > That might appear true inductively, but perhaps not deductively. A long history of treatment failures sets an empirical trend, but not an absolute certainty. I don't think you can conclude deductively that a sustained remission is unlikely until you have exhausted all treatment possibilities. While I haven't reached full remission yet, my robust response to my current treatment regime has been a surprise to me; this, after 30 years of treatment failures. I cannot say with certainty that you are likely to respond to prazosin or minocycline, but it is certain that you cannot pronounce yourself untreatable until you do.
> >
> > I guess that seems like a rather cold approach to using logic. However, in my mind, it makes sense. It has been one of the major reasons that I have not taken my own life. I find sighted hope to be more compelling than blind hope, so I educated myself in order to find it.
> >
> > An interesting mix might include Lamictal, Abilify, minocycline, and Wellbutrin. This treatment proposition is not necessarily designed with you in mind. I don't recall your symptoms or treatment history. However, it is an example of a new way of using old drugs. Polypharmacy may be necessary in your case until new treatments emerge from medical science.
> >
> > You are a hard worker, and you deserve to win.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
>
> Friends,
> Be advised that the mix of chemicals that are listed here could kill you if you take them. There is also the risk of increasing seizures and the risk of CNS depression that could lead to death.
> Lou
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal-and-abilify/death
>
correction:
http://www.ehealthme.com/lamictal-and-abilify/death
Posted by tensor on January 22, 2013, at 6:47:25
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » tensor, posted by SLS on January 22, 2013, at 3:27:58
> > I have had so many depressive episodes in my life and a sustained remission is not likely.
>
> That might appear true inductively, but perhaps not deductively. A long history of treatment failures sets an empirical trend, but not an absolute certainty. I don't think you can conclude deductively that a sustained remission is unlikely until you have exhausted all treatment possibilities. While I haven't reached full remission yet, my robust response to my current treatment regime has been a surprise to me; this, after 30 years of treatment failures. I cannot say with certainty that you are likely to respond to prazosin or minocycline, but it is certain that you cannot pronounce yourself untreatable until you do.No but it's good to know they exist as a viable option, I have learned alot from you Scott.
I agree, the number of combinations with meds, especially when we tend to borrow more meds from other fields, is huge. However, for every cycle of depressive episode and remission, it seems to be harder and harder to get the brain going again. What started as a depression easily treated with a medium dose mirtazapine has over the years evolved into something different.
I can't remember when I took less than four meds. I do remain hopeful and I try to remedy the situation with more than medication, although I really would like to see more meds emerge, labeled as 'next generation'.>I find sighted hope to be more compelling than blind hope, so I educated myself in order to find it.
This is the best I have read in a while :-) I hope you don't mind if I use it.
> An interesting mix might include Lamictal, Abilify, minocycline, and Wellbutrin. This treatment proposition is not necessarily designed with you in mind. I don't recall your symptoms or treatment history. However, it is an example of a new way of using old drugs. Polypharmacy may be necessary in your case until new treatments emerge from medical science.That is an interesting combination. Looks dopaminergic. I tried alprazolam recently but didn't like it at all. I have had some problem with anxiety but today is a better day and I'm back to clonazepam. I decided to give Concerta another shot so I took 36mg this morning. Didn't feel anything positive a.m. but the afternoon has been good. Been out in the sun and actually ran for awhile.
I also take 300mg Seroquel and 200mg Lamictal. I used to like modafinil alot but I have complained for a long time that its efficacy has declined. I read that NE-alpha1 antagonists may block the actions of modafinil. Hmm.. like Seroquel and many more.> You are a hard worker, and you deserve to win.
So do you, Scott, and all sufferers out there.
/tensor
Posted by tensor on January 22, 2013, at 7:45:00
In reply to correction- Lou's warning-dhthfrmdrgz, posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2013, at 4:17:04
> > Friends,
> > Be advised that the mix of chemicals that are listed here could kill you if you take them. There is also the risk of increasing seizures and the risk of CNS depression that could lead to death.
> > Lou
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal-and-abilify/death
> >
> correction:
> http://www.ehealthme.com/lamictal-and-abilify/death
>
>Lou, I do appreciate yor concern. But your source is not what I would call reliable.
In the link you provided it says:On Nov, 28, 2012: 2,102 people reported to have side effects when taking Abilify, Lamictal. Among them, 26 people (1.24%) have Death.
It feels a little "computed" to say the least. "Among them 26 people have Death". I don't know but I'm not sure if I would report "Death" as a side effect to ehealthme.com if it happened to me.
There's another problem, looking at this page:
http://www.ehealthme.com/drug-interactions/lamictal-and-abilify
It says:
On Jan, 22, 2013: 2,034 people who reported to have interactions when taking Abilify, Lamictal are studiedTwo months later the accumulated reports have dropped from 2,102 to 2,034.
A little more in-depth look at the statistics, eHealthMe real world results,
Most common interactions experienced by people in the use of Abilify, Lamictal:
nr 1: Rash 365
nr 78: Death 30
nr 86: Abdominal pain 28
nr 95: Depressed mood 25Most common interactions experienced by people in long term use of Abilify, Lamictal:
nr 1: Diabetes Mellitus 38
nr 4: Rash 34
nr 12: Anxiety 10
nr 99: Nausea 3
No deathsThat aside, there is always a risk/benefit ratio. There are certainly risks staying unmedicated too.
/tensor
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2013, at 14:41:11
In reply to Re: correction- Lou's warning-dhthfrmdrgz » Lou Pilder, posted by tensor on January 22, 2013, at 7:45:00
> > > Friends,
> > > Be advised that the mix of chemicals that are listed here could kill you if you take them. There is also the risk of increasing seizures and the risk of CNS depression that could lead to death.
> > > Lou
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal-and-abilify/death
> > >
> > correction:
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/lamictal-and-abilify/death
> >
> >
>
> Lou, I do appreciate yor concern. But your source is not what I would call reliable.
> In the link you provided it says:
>
> On Nov, 28, 2012: 2,102 people reported to have side effects when taking Abilify, Lamictal. Among them, 26 people (1.24%) have Death.
>
> It feels a little "computed" to say the least. "Among them 26 people have Death". I don't know but I'm not sure if I would report "Death" as a side effect to ehealthme.com if it happened to me.
> There's another problem, looking at this page:
> http://www.ehealthme.com/drug-interactions/lamictal-and-abilify
> It says:
> On Jan, 22, 2013: 2,034 people who reported to have interactions when taking Abilify, Lamictal are studied
>
> Two months later the accumulated reports have dropped from 2,102 to 2,034.
>
> A little more in-depth look at the statistics, eHealthMe real world results,
> Most common interactions experienced by people in the use of Abilify, Lamictal:
> nr 1: Rash 365
> nr 78: Death 30
> nr 86: Abdominal pain 28
> nr 95: Depressed mood 25
>
> Most common interactions experienced by people in long term use of Abilify, Lamictal:
> nr 1: Diabetes Mellitus 38
> nr 4: Rash 34
> nr 12: Anxiety 10
> nr 99: Nausea 3
> No deaths
>
> That aside, there is always a risk/benefit ratio. There are certainly risks staying unmedicated too.
>
> /tensort,
You wrote about risks to people that do not take psychiatric drugs. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What are the risks that you mean to those that do not take pcychotropic drugs?
B. In those risks, what research do you use to substantiate that?
C. If death is a risk from taking a psychiatic drug, what benifit outweighs that risk?
D. redacted by respondent
Lou
Posted by tensor on January 23, 2013, at 1:16:21
In reply to Lou's reply-dhawehyjizofpsyn » tensor, posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2013, at 14:41:11
> > > > Friends,
> > > > Be advised that the mix of chemicals that are listed here could kill you if you take them. There is also the risk of increasing seizures and the risk of CNS depression that could lead to death.
> > > > Lou
> > > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal-and-abilify/death
> > > >
> > > correction:
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/lamictal-and-abilify/death
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Lou, I do appreciate yor concern. But your source is not what I would call reliable.
> > In the link you provided it says:
> >
> > On Nov, 28, 2012: 2,102 people reported to have side effects when taking Abilify, Lamictal. Among them, 26 people (1.24%) have Death.
> >
> > It feels a little "computed" to say the least. "Among them 26 people have Death". I don't know but I'm not sure if I would report "Death" as a side effect to ehealthme.com if it happened to me.
> > There's another problem, looking at this page:
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/drug-interactions/lamictal-and-abilify
> > It says:
> > On Jan, 22, 2013: 2,034 people who reported to have interactions when taking Abilify, Lamictal are studied
> >
> > Two months later the accumulated reports have dropped from 2,102 to 2,034.
> >
> > A little more in-depth look at the statistics, eHealthMe real world results,
> > Most common interactions experienced by people in the use of Abilify, Lamictal:
> > nr 1: Rash 365
> > nr 78: Death 30
> > nr 86: Abdominal pain 28
> > nr 95: Depressed mood 25
> >
> > Most common interactions experienced by people in long term use of Abilify, Lamictal:
> > nr 1: Diabetes Mellitus 38
> > nr 4: Rash 34
> > nr 12: Anxiety 10
> > nr 99: Nausea 3
> > No deaths
> >
> > That aside, there is always a risk/benefit ratio. There are certainly risks staying unmedicated too.
> >
> > /tensor
>
> t,
> You wrote about risks to people that do not take psychiatric drugs. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. What are the risks that you mean to those that do not take pcychotropic drugs?
> B. In those risks, what research do you use to substantiate that?
> C. If death is a risk from taking a psychiatic drug, what benifit outweighs that risk?
car, flying> D. redacted by respondent
> LouWhy don't you reply to my answer first?
/tensor
This is the end of the thread.
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