![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 40 to 64 of 64. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists, posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 18:54:08
> I'm not sure why you've been so offended by Phillipus' posts, so maybe you could clarify.
Are you asking me to explain the workings of my psyche?
I still don't understand your need to understand me. I am not that important.
- Scott
Posted by europerep on August 24, 2012, at 15:06:09
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 7:10:18
> I hope you would agree that for some people, their depression is disabling and does indeed stop them from doing almost everything.
I think it is worth noting here that it was you, Scott, who chose to challenge phidippus on his views on depression, its impact on someone's "performance levels" and so on, by posting the above remark. You cannot expect to open up a debate without having your own views challenged. And, if you make your case based on the experience of someone with depression, then it's only logical that people are going to ask questions about that person, even if that person happens to be you. Saying that people don't know how long it takes you to write a post, and then, when people want to know the answer, telling them it's not important is not how debating works.
Incidentally, I disagree with much of what phidippus said, but that's a different story.
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2012, at 6:23:09
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by europerep on August 24, 2012, at 15:06:09
Hi.
> telling them it's not important is not how debating works
I did not say that "it" was not important. I said that "I" was not important.
I really didn't find this exchange to be much of a debate at all. If you would like to identify what it was that piqued my interest, you can find it in the use of quotation marks early in the thread. Perhaps I am too sensitive to such things.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:11:47
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Raisinb, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 23:02:31
> > I've been in states where I was so frantically doing everything I could think of to defeat my depression that I induced way more dysphoria because I was constantly beating myself up for not doing more or different things. Depression is great for inducing binds like that.
>
> Have you always had high expectations of yourself?
>
> I did.
>
> Perfectionism can be depressogenic.
>
> At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
>
> I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.
>
>
> - ScottThis is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others? I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
I'm probably just being narcissistic. But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
What does that mean? Who's rule of reason? Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable? If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize, and instead take your life into your own hands, are you being unreasonable? Was Ernest Hemingway unreasonable for blowing his brains out because ECT had robbed him of the ability to write?
I don't know. Sometimes (or more recently), the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
Posted by SLS on August 26, 2012, at 7:48:57
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:11:47
> > At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
> >
> > I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.> This is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
Most of your validation must come from within, especially because so few people around you understand the degree of pain and impairment you are suffering on a daily basis for years at a time. I hope you find validation here. You try so hard. I was fortunate to have doctors from various research facilities who validated me and had an understanding of how debilitating my illness is and how hard I try to remain alive and functioning independently.
> He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
> I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
Yes. Mental illness has historically been considered to be a sign of weakness, cowardice, or defect. Such things are not celebrated.
> I'm probably just being narcissistic.
I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
> But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
> What does that mean? Who's rule of reason?
Not mine. But then again, who am I?
> Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
> If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
> the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
:-(
Try to hold closely to your soul the memories of what life can be without depression, anxiety, and OCD - assuming that you were ever fortunate enough to know such a time. I truly believe that it is my memories of remission that helped me to keep going. I knew the potential rewards of persistence. I guard these memories.
I really want to see you well. Please don't give up.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 27, 2012, at 8:32:03
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 26, 2012, at 7:48:57
> > > At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
> > >
> > > I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.
>
> > This is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
>
> Most of your validation must come from within, especially because so few people around you understand the degree of pain and impairment you are suffering on a daily basis for years at a time. I hope you find validation here. You try so hard. I was fortunate to have doctors from various research facilities who validated me and had an understanding of how debilitating my illness is and how hard I try to remain alive and functioning independently.I think my problem is that I hide symptoms from my psychiatrist. I was so desperate to have my ADD treated (getting an rx. for a stimulant in Australia is such a feat in itself that it seemed like a viable survival tactic at the time) that I never revealed the extent of my borderline-agoraphobia/phobic anxiety. He knows I suffer from OCD, but may be under the impression it is more an obsessive/anxiety issue, whereas the degree of daily avoidance I go through has reduced my quality-of-life to next-to-nil. He has never offered me any kind of affirmation of my suffering (other than a comment on my intelligence), though I thought perhaps this went part-in-parcel with his psychodynamic approach. I was more upset because he ended our last session with the aforementioned commentary on how I needed to develop some sense of internal validation to fight off constant projections, irrational fantasies, etc. and that no person could offer me that other than myself. Maybe it was what I needed to hear, but it was difficult because, like I say (partly through my own fault), he doesn't have a precise picture of the degree of my suffering.
>
> > He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
>
> It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit. It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
>
> > I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
>
> Yes. Mental illness has historically been considered to be a sign of weakness, cowardice, or defect. Such things are not celebrated.
>
> > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
>
> I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict. I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself. Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering. My psychiatrist doesn't like dishing out labels and hasn't really confirmed or denied; he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
>
> > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
>
> I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
>
> > What does that mean? Who's rule of reason?
>
> Not mine. But then again, who am I?
>
> > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
>
> No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that, so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.? Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction. I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me, but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
>
> > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
>
> I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
>
> > the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
>
> :-(
>
> Try to hold closely to your soul the memories of what life can be without depression, anxiety, and OCD - assuming that you were ever fortunate enough to know such a time. I truly believe that it is my memories of remission that helped me to keep going. I knew the potential rewards of persistence. I guard these memories.
>
> I really want to see you well. Please don't give up.
>Yes, there were such times. But so much has been clouded over by anger and bitterness over lost time, family conflict and hostility, and pure fear. I feel like a prisoner at home, and cannot leave. Anyway, your sentiment made me cry. It's more sincere, understanding, non-judgmental encouragement than my parents have ever offered me.
Please excuse me if this is too much information, but given my predilection for forming friendships with older males in real life, it suddenly dawned on me that you operate as a kind of online father figure for me. It makes sense, since I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
Posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 17:08:57
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 27, 2012, at 8:32:03
> > > How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
> > It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
> Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit.
That is TOTALLY understandable. I am still confronted with this challenge, despite my attempts to understand and accept my illness and how crushing it can be upon my ability to function in society. For many years, I was consumed with these negative thoughts. I sometimes resent certain people for their success in society. This is not very attractive. I have achieved a great deal given the debilitating illness I am handicapped with. However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I want to succeed in society, too.
> It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
I feel that I would have to be immersed in society to a much greater degree than I have been in order to judge such things. My only exposure to the world of the younger is through what I see on CNN. I'm sure there are reasons why you feel the way you do. It is quite possible that you are right about there being a social shift. I am just very reluctant to judge youth. I can't possibly understand fully a generation that I am not a part of. I was barely a part of my own.
> I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
I fully appreciate your sentiments. I doubt that things have been equally difficult historically. I don't think I had such a difficult time with the sort of things you describe. Things seem so pressured and competitive now.
> > > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
> > I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
> I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict.
Inappriate feelings of guilt is actually a well-known feature of depressive illness. Being young and so intellectually intense is bound to produce inner conflict when one is depressed. Perhaps you are narcissistic, but I don't believe that the presence of guilt and inner conflict is sufficient to indicate narcissism.
> I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself.
Perhaps you were not validated by your parents when you were a child. You might not have been nurtured. Maybe you were teased or bullied by peers. You may never have had the approval and praise of anyone during your formative years. You may have been ridiculed. It makes sense that you would have developed as an adult to always be looking for validation and approval. You would always be in your own head. However, this is not the same as narcissism.
> Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering.
Probably. However, your depression may also have been precipitated by the sort of chronic psychosocial stress I mentioned above. Both can be true in the same person. Once triggered in a biologically vulnerable individual, depressive disorders can be self perpetuating.
> he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
That's a bunch of crap.
> > > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
> > I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
> I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
He might be the best practicioner of psychodynamic psychotherapy, but that does not guarantee that he is equally effective as a diagnostician of Axis I disorders or a psychopharmacologist.
> I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
Before I lose the thought, I want to mention that Viibryd (vilazodone) might be an interesting drug for you to explore. It might treat depression and OCD at the same time.
> > > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
> > No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
> Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that,
DEFINITELY!
> so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.?
Yes. I do believe that depression can produce feelings of guilt, persecution, and disapproval along with other intrusive thoughts, especially if there is a childhood history of these things.
> Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
Don't let the negative thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of others determine your decision making process. Do what you know is best for you. Stand alone if you have to. Maintain your intellectual and emotional independence.
> I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part
How do you know?
> has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction.
Has she told you that your affliction is the reason for her not wanting to become more deeply involved?
> I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me,
Very possibly. However, I know what it is like to want to maintain a relationship out of loneliness, despite a lack of healthy feelings of affection and commitment.
> but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
Perhaps you can take advantage of the Psychology board. There are some very smart and caring people there.
> > > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
> > I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
> Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
I understand.
:-(
> Please excuse me if this is too much information,
Actually, I feel priveleged that you should want to share so much. Your post allows me to understand you better - and like you more.
> I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
You are a wonderful person who goes out of their way to nurture others. How could you possibly be a narcissist? Does your personal research into narcissism indicate to you that you are?
You know, it really sucks that you are being given such unsupportive messages by your psychiatrist. It is just one more instance of your not getting the validation and praise you missed a child.
I think you're pretty cool.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 18:31:31
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 17:08:57
>However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I >want to succeed in society, too
You can get more from life. You do deserve more from life. I have no doubt you will succeed in society, too.
Eric
Posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 18:38:47
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 18:31:31
> >However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I >want to succeed in society, too
>
> You can get more from life. You do deserve more from life. I have no doubt you will succeed in society, too.
>
> Eric
Thanks, Eric. Sometimes these things seem so out of reach.I'll keep trying.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 20:04:43
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 18:38:47
While I have your attention...
I have been having a troubling symptom and because I have OCD alongside the bipolar, I am having difficulty figuring out if its a bipolar symptom or an OCD symptom. I am asking you because you're the only person on Psycho-Babble I know is bipolar.
Basically, I'm having moments where I wish I were dead. Like I feel so tired I can't go on, just for brief moments. Is this my mood becoming labile, or just intrusive thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric
Posted by SLS on August 28, 2012, at 7:45:16
In reply to Re: just a brief digression » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 20:04:43
> While I have your attention...
>
> I have been having a troubling symptom and because I have OCD alongside the bipolar, I am having difficulty figuring out if its a bipolar symptom or an OCD symptom. I am asking you because you're the only person on Psycho-Babble I know is bipolar.
>
> Basically, I'm having moments where I wish I were dead. Like I feel so tired I can't go on, just for brief moments. Is this my mood becoming labile, or just intrusive thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
When my depression was worse, I was frequently plagued by unwanted, inappropriate intrusive thoughts. It was like my sick brain was manufacturing these thoughts on its own. However, I would allow them to dissipate quickly once they emerged by not paying attention to them. I realized that they were indeed spontaneous brain malfunctions that were unrelated to me as a person and not to be taken seriously.Obviously, I cannot draw a distinction between the intrusive thoughts of depression versus those of OCD. If I had to guess, I would say that those of OCD cannot be so easily dismissed as one cannot help but to focus on and ruminate over them, despite knowing that they are part of an illness. I imagine that such thoughts are relentless in OCD.
I guess the bottom line is that intrusive thoughts can occur in the absence of OCD or OCPD.
- Scott
Posted by b2chica on August 30, 2012, at 15:38:07
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Tomatheus, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 15:37:22
just a correction. Stephen Hawkins has ALS, not a brain injury. ALS is a neurodegenerative disease effecting muscles not cognition. only about 1% of those with ALS get psychological effects, mostly mood lability, some with memory issues etc. but very few percent. so hes mostly dealing with physical impairment, NOT mood like chronic or acute depression/mania/schizophrenia.
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 16:09:32
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by b2chica on August 30, 2012, at 15:38:07
> just a correction. Stephen Hawkins has ALS, not a brain injury. ALS is a neurodegenerative disease effecting muscles not cognition. only about 1% of those with ALS get psychological effects, mostly mood lability, some with memory issues etc. but very few percent. so hes mostly dealing with physical impairment, NOT mood like chronic or acute depression/mania/schizophrenia.
If you think about it, one can learn to live with a great many handicaps as long as they have a healthy mind and the mental resources to do so. If one's intellect, motivation, and mental energy are intact, anything is possible. When these things are compromised, very little is possible.
Depression is an altered state of consciousness. When one is drunk and cannot function, we blame the alcohol and expect very little of the intoxicated person during the time that they are in an altered state. However, this is not true of depression. Depression is rarely appreciated as the altered state that it is, and much is expected of a depressed person.
"If a paraplegic can learn to run with prosthetic legs, why can't you get out of bed, take a shower, and get dressed?"
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 30, 2012, at 20:56:56
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » b2chica, posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 16:09:32
People with depression still have the faculty of judgement. When I was psychotically depressed, I still made the right choices in taking care of myself.
Because depressed people can demonstrate good judgement, most people assume they can function normally. Most people don't understand just how severe depression can get and they certainly don't understand the biological aspect of depression and how it effects the functioning of the brain. I think it says something though that people have made wonderful work in the worst states of depression: the poetry of Sylvia Plath or the writings of Ernest Hemingway come to mind.
"If a paraplegic can learn to run with prosthetic legs, why can't you get out of bed, take a shower and get dressed?"
How do you answer that? I could say, physiologically, there's nothing wrong with the depressed person, they can get up. The only problem is that physiology is controlled by a brain that has lost something. The axons in their myelinated sheaths aren't firing right, or maybe whole brain structures have been comprimised. We're not sure. Why don't you get out of bed? Because my mind hurts.
Is depression an altered state of consciosness? Maybe, but I can't compare it to drunkness or any other kind of intoxication, because judgement is mostly retained.
Eric
Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2012, at 20:58:21
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » b2chica, posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 16:09:32
Kind of got lost here with reference to ALS as my husband's mother died of it. Since it attacks all the muscles eventurally you end up on a respirator with your mental facilities intact but unable to move. You know what's going on and that is it. No eating no walking no nothing. His Mother chose euthenasia given by compassionate docs in the hospital as she didn't want to be a burden and enjoyed her crafts a very talented painter, carver, dollmaker. She chose not to degenerate to this state. A morphine drip was started she dies two days later. Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on August 30, 2012, at 21:01:26
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by b2chica on August 30, 2012, at 15:38:07
Thee point of bringing up Stephen Hawking was to set him as an example of an afflicted person doing great things. It was unimportant whether he had a brain disorder or not. I also brought up John Nash (schizophrenia) and Beethoven (deaf).
I view the mentally ill as afflicted individuals who can and do achieve great things.
Eric
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 23:28:35
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2012, at 20:58:21
> Kind of got lost here with reference to ALS as my husband's mother died of it. Since it attacks all the muscles eventurally you end up on a respirator with your mental facilities intact but unable to move.
It's beyond horrible to be trapped within one's own body. The thought terrifies me.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 31, 2012, at 0:28:18
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 30, 2012, at 20:56:56
> People with depression still have the faculty of judgement. When I was psychotically depressed, I still made the right choices in taking care of myself.
>
> Because depressed people can demonstrate good judgement, most people assume they can function normally. Most people don't understand just how severe depression can get and they certainly don't understand the biological aspect of depression and how it effects the functioning of the brain. I think it says something though that people have made wonderful work in the worst states of depression: the poetry of Sylvia Plath or the writings of Ernest Hemingway come to mind.
>
> "If a paraplegic can learn to run with prosthetic legs, why can't you get out of bed, take a shower and get dressed?"
>
> How do you answer that? I could say, physiologically, there's nothing wrong with the depressed person, they can get up. The only problem is that physiology is controlled by a brain that has lost something. The axons in their myelinated sheaths aren't firing right, or maybe whole brain structures have been comprimised. We're not sure. Why don't you get out of bed? Because my mind hurts.
>
> Is depression an altered state of consciosness? Maybe, but I can't compare it to drunkness or any other kind of intoxication, because judgement is mostly retained.
>
> Eric
I'm glad that your judgment is mostly retained. Is it possible that you are not the archetype for all cases of depression?Brain function is a type of physiology last I checked, and is the critical issue with depressive disorders.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 31, 2012, at 15:34:48
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Phillipa, posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 23:28:35
We're all trapped inside our bodies. Unless you can astral project.
Eric
Posted by phidippus on August 31, 2012, at 15:49:20
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 31, 2012, at 0:28:18
My premise was that most people suffering from depression have sound judgement.
I did not mean to separate the brain from physiology, only to make the point it is the controlling aspect of physiology.
Why is depression so hard to treat?
Eric
Posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2012, at 18:32:30
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 31, 2012, at 15:49:20
Some depressions are a combination of body and mind ones. Some diseases cause depression. No idea why it's so hard to treat? Phillipa
Posted by g_g_g_unit on September 1, 2012, at 7:02:53
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 17:08:57
> > > > How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
>
> > > It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
>
> > Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit.
>
> That is TOTALLY understandable. I am still confronted with this challenge, despite my attempts to understand and accept my illness and how crushing it can be upon my ability to function in society. For many years, I was consumed with these negative thoughts. I sometimes resent certain people for their success in society. This is not very attractive. I have achieved a great deal given the debilitating illness I am handicapped with. However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I want to succeed in society, too.
>Like Eric said, you deserve more. I've never underestimated the extent of your suffering and I think the patience and persistence you've shown is inspirational. Given your IQ (or what is demonstrable online), what you've had to contend with (and likewise been robbed of) is a tragedy. I've seen a sad, similar degeneration in myself. As ugly it is, sometimes it's impossible to contain my resentment and envy towards others, and I would be more surprised if you didn't habour such sentiments.
> > It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
>
> I feel that I would have to be immersed in society to a much greater degree than I have been in order to judge such things. My only exposure to the world of the younger is through what I see on CNN. I'm sure there are reasons why you feel the way you do. It is quite possible that you are right about there being a social shift. I am just very reluctant to judge youth. I can't possibly understand fully a generation that I am not a part of. I was barely a part of my own.
>
> > I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
>
> I fully appreciate your sentiments. I doubt that things have been equally difficult historically. I don't think I had such a difficult time with the sort of things you describe. Things seem so pressured and competitive now.I think you're right about things being so pressured/competitive right now.
>
> > > > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
>
> > > I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
>
> > I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict.
>
> Inappriate feelings of guilt is actually a well-known feature of depressive illness. Being young and so intellectually intense is bound to produce inner conflict when one is depressed. Perhaps you are narcissistic, but I don't believe that the presence of guilt and inner conflict is sufficient to indicate narcissism.
>Sorry, it wasn't based exclusively on the presence of guilt/inner conflict. I think the subtype (covert Narciccism, if I remember correctly?) involved inner guilt/conflict over harbouring genuine narcissistic sentiments. Anyway, the therapist in question made the diagnosis based on a screening questionnaire for Narcissism I had to fill out -- again, that might sound unprofessional, preemptive or whatever, but she was a well-regarded academic who specialized in personality disorders, so I never really challenged her diagnostic 'method'.
> > I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself.
>
> Perhaps you were not validated by your parents when you were a child. You might not have been nurtured. Maybe you were teased or bullied by peers. You may never have had the approval and praise of anyone during your formative years. You may have been ridiculed. It makes sense that you would have developed as an adult to always be looking for validation and approval. You would always be in your own head. However, this is not the same as narcissism.I was not validated by my parents, you're correct, and I was bullied. I assumed the constant desire for validation/approval was an aspect of narcissism, or does that involve the constant validation and approval of an idealized narcissistic 'self' that one has created?
>
> > Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering.
>
> Probably. However, your depression may also have been precipitated by the sort of chronic psychosocial stress I mentioned above. Both can be true in the same person. Once triggered in a biologically vulnerable individual, depressive disorders can be self perpetuating.
>
> > he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
>
> That's a bunch of crap.Sorry, I really don't mean to paint a bad picture of my psychiatrist. I really do like him and treasure his insight. I think he was trying to deflect away from my increasing obsession with 'labels' (i.e. the narcissistic one which has hung over my conscious ever since that aforementioned therapist diagnosed me) and suggest that narcissism might occur on a spectrum, or that everyone might exhibit 'narcissitic' traits at some point. I think what he meant was that it might colloquially be possible to describe (or mistake?) the self-withdrawal and negative introspection prompted by depression as 'narcissitic', but that it didn't make one a narcissist; in other words, he was trying to challenge this static conception I have of myself as a narcissist (in a similar way you are, I suppose).
>
> > > > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
>
> > > I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
>
> > I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
>
> He might be the best practicioner of psychodynamic psychotherapy, but that does not guarantee that he is equally effective as a diagnostician of Axis I disorders or a psychopharmacologist.No it doesn't. But as I've said, I've liked his more careful approach. And when he has been in doubt about something (e.g. whether my depression was uni or bipolar) he did not hesitate in referring me to an expert in the field (since he deals more with ADHD).
>
> > I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
>
> Before I lose the thought, I want to mention that Viibryd (vilazodone) might be an interesting drug for you to explore. It might treat depression and OCD at the same time.Unfortunately it isn't available in Australia at this point. .
>
> > > > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
>
> > > No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
>
> > Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that,
>
> DEFINITELY!Well, tomorrow it would have been exactly two weeks since I stopped Parnate. I presume that means my MAO levels will return to their (depressive?) baseline?
>
> > so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.?
>
> Yes. I do believe that depression can produce feelings of guilt, persecution, and disapproval along with other intrusive thoughts, especially if there is a childhood history of these things.It's been difficult because I definitely noticed a shift towards feeling more socially hesitant, less included, more alienated from my family etc. as I withdrew from the Parnate.
>
> > Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
>
> Don't let the negative thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of others determine your decision making process. Do what you know is best for you. Stand alone if you have to. Maintain your intellectual and emotional independence.I try to, but like I say, it can be incredibly difficult (almost insurmountable) not to compare oneself to others.
>
> > I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part
>
> How do you know?I declared my feelings to her (an extremely difficult feat, as I suffer from social anxiety) and she was evasive; I didn't receive a personal rejection .. she merely said that she had emerged from a really difficult, long-lasting relationship several months ago (which is true). But I suppose I felt somewhat cheated in the sense that I was never addressed personally .. she fell back on a kind of generalized response, rather than telling me whether she was attracted to me personally or not.
>
> > has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction.
>
> Has she told you that your affliction is the reason for her not wanting to become more deeply involved?No, that wasn't the reason she gave, so I know I'm being irrational. But I guess the rejection exacerbated the general alienation I already experience as a result of my condition.
>
> > I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me,
>
> Very possibly. However, I know what it is like to want to maintain a relationship out of loneliness, despite a lack of healthy feelings of affection and commitment.That is the extremely difficult decision I have to come to terms with .. whether to continue the friendship despite my yearning, as we do have some kind of emotional closeness regardless. I guess I don't feel like I'm in a position to make sound judgments right now anyway .. my mood has been very labile due to the Parnate withdrawal and I think I've been taking everything extremely personally, or been far more sensitive to (perceived?) rejection.
>
> > but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
>
> Perhaps you can take advantage of the Psychology board. There are some very smart and caring people there.
>
> > > > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
>
> > > I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
>
> > Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
>
> I understand.
>
> :-(
>
> > Please excuse me if this is too much information,
>
> Actually, I feel priveleged that you should want to share so much. Your post allows me to understand you better - and like you more.Thanks. I appreciate the sentiment.
>
> > I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
>
> You are a wonderful person who goes out of their way to nurture others. How could you possibly be a narcissist? Does your personal research into narcissism indicate to you that you are?I don't know. I see it in my mother and her mother, so wouldn't be surprised if there was perhaps a genetic predisposition. But I also believe that dealing with chronically high levels of anxiety and ongoing depression has perhaps exacerbated any narcissistic tendencies, as it becomes difficult not to retreat into some fetishized ideal of myself which I try to pursue or nurture, sometimes at the expense of seeing others' pain clearly or gaining a realistic picture of myself and my abilities. I think psychodynamic therapy has made me far more empathetic, however, and allowed me to tame those instincts somewhat. I have only researched the issue superficially, but what I have read on narcissism did feel like it applied to me, to some extent at least.
>
> You know, it really sucks that you are being given such unsupportive messages by your psychiatrist. It is just one more instance of your not getting the validation and praise you missed a child.
>
> I think you're pretty cool.
>
>
> - Scott
>I don't know. I think I am painting a skewed picture of him, and, like I say, part of it is perhaps my fault for sometimes withholding the extent of how much I am suffering (a desire to appear 'together' or coping, I suppose). I saw his stand-in this week while he was away, who was far more genial and openly kind, but I didn't feel as challenged by him because he didn't evoke the same fear I have of authority/father figures that my current psychiatrist/therapist does. I thought that sense of challenge or transference I guess was an intrinsic or vital part of the therapeutic process. I am still not quite there, but dealing with my current psychiatrist has helped me take a step towards overcoming (or at least questioning the rationality of) those fears.
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2012, at 7:27:29
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on September 1, 2012, at 7:02:53
Hi.
Thanks for clarifying things. I apologize for being too critical of your psychiatrist. I see that I was wrong.
I appreciate how difficult it is to do psychotherapeutic work while depressed, but what better choice do we have? One day at a time...
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on September 2, 2012, at 11:26:25
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on September 1, 2012, at 7:27:29
> Hi.
>
> Thanks for clarifying things. I apologize for being too critical of your psychiatrist. I see that I was wrong.
>
> I appreciate how difficult it is to do psychotherapeutic work while depressed, but what better choice do we have? One day at a time...
>
>
> - ScottThere's no need to apologize. I think I got scared because you voiced a fear I have, which is that sometimes he does seem a little emotionally distant. I find it difficult to deal with at times, but maybe he feels that if he were too nurturing, I would become emotionally dependent on him. I also thought that analytically-orientated therapists (he says his approach is analytically-based psychodynamic therapy) were supposed to operate at a slight remove ..
I don't know. Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm trying to rationalize staying with him, but he has been very understanding in terms of grasping my subjective experience(it was so hard finding someone who would believe I have ADHD), and does not hesitate in taking a more experimental approach to medication (at least lately..). I've weighed it up and think remaining with him is for the best, but it's true, I never quite feel 'loved' by him .. it's too often overshadowed by my fear of father/authority figures.
Anyway, sorry if that's too much information. But maybe this is something I should bring up with him.
Posted by TemporarilyBob on September 7, 2012, at 0:07:49
In reply to Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists, posted by alchemy on August 20, 2012, at 19:29:56
I'm afraid I've jumped in way too late and so much has already been said down many different paths ... but that never shut me up before. :p
I'm ABD (all but dissertation) from one of the top 3 programs of its discipline. At the time I stopped, I made all sorts of political and ethical complaints about academe to convince myself as to why I stopped. In hindsight, I can now see just how badly my bipolar disorder was expressing itself and warping me away from what I should have done with my life. That was some 17 years or so ago. There is a glimmer in the corner of my mind that if I can get the right treatment, maybe I can get back on that path.
For those who want to try, you have to realize that there are resources out there for disabled students and that if anyplace in our society can accept people with "invisible" disabilities like ours, it would have to be institutes of higher learning, places where science and reason are supposed to rule over institutionalized prejudices. All the same, it takes one helluva gut check to even start looking for that help.
We all may be walking in the same dark valley. That does not mean we walk the same path. It does not mean we must climb the same obstacles, in number or shape or nature. Some of us walk far deeper into that valley than others. It makes no one's journey any simpler, any less meaningful. It does not lessen the pain anyone of us feels. So be mindful that your view is not your companion's view. The easy path you see may be impassible to them. It's great to see someone pull themselves out from where we struggle ... but our struggles, sadly, are often solely our own, in part or in whole.
This is the end of the thread.
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