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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Christ_empowered on May 29, 2012, at 10:52:20
Does anyone have solid numbers of TD with long term use of the atypicals? I'm not too concerned--I tolerate 30mgs/Abilify well, and the antioxidant cocktail I've whipped up seems to be reducing dysphoria and twitches--but I'm curious.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 29, 2012, at 16:16:57
In reply to How common is TD now?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 29, 2012, at 10:52:20
> Does anyone have solid numbers of TD with long term use of the atypicals? I'm not too concerned--I tolerate 30mgs/Abilify well, and the antioxidant cocktail I've whipped up seems to be reducing dysphoria and twitches--but I'm curious.
>
> C_E,
You wrote, [...Does anyone have solid numbers....TD...].
Here is a way to know the stats on particular drugs from TD that has been reported. Be advised, that there are groups that think that if an event is reported, it is only 1/100 of the actual cases. So if there are 135 cases reporeted, it could be 13500 in reality in the thinking that only 1/100 cases are reported.
Now to find each drug and the nukmmber of TD cases reported, you can use ehealthme.
Here is how it is done. Suppose you want to find out the number of reported cases of TD from Seroquel:
A. Brinng up Google
B. Type in:
[can seroquel cause TD, ehealthme]
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2012, at 16:54:03
In reply to How common is TD now?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 29, 2012, at 10:52:20
Hey CE where you been? Phillipa
Posted by Zyprexa on May 29, 2012, at 20:59:25
In reply to How common is TD now?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 29, 2012, at 10:52:20
I took zyprexa for 10 years and never got TD from it. I took abilify for 6 months and got TD, which still has not gone away. I now take cogentin for it and it helps, but not enough.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 6:11:31
In reply to Re: How common is TD now?, posted by Zyprexa on May 29, 2012, at 20:59:25
> I took zyprexa for 10 years and never got TD from it. I took abilify for 6 months and got TD, which still has not gone away. I now take cogentin for it and it helps, but not enough.
Zy,
You wrote,[...got TD..has not gone away...].
Posted by Phillipa on May 30, 2012, at 20:23:42
In reply to Lou's response- » Zyprexa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 6:11:31
Lou it is going away per posters post. Phillipa
Posted by Raisinb on May 30, 2012, at 20:59:08
In reply to How common is TD now?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 29, 2012, at 10:52:20
I don't have solid numbers but my pdoc says its extremely rare even after years of AAP use. But he IS a pdoc, so take that with some salt.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 21:01:12
In reply to Re: Lou's response- » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 30, 2012, at 20:23:42
> Lou it is going away per posters post. Phillipa
Phillpa,
The poster posted that it is not going away in this thread. My response was based on what I saw in the poster's post.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on May 30, 2012, at 21:26:12
In reply to Lou's response-whtizizwhtiz » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 21:01:12
Lou but the cogentin is helping so hopefully soon it will no longer be a problem. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 22:26:40
In reply to Re: Lou's response-whtizizwhtiz » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 30, 2012, at 21:26:12
> Lou but the cogentin is helping so hopefully soon it will no longer be a problem. Phillipa
Phillipa,
The poster wrote that cogentin helps but not enough, which is what I responded to.
There are cases of Tardive Dyskinesia that never go away, even with taking other drugs.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 22:38:43
In reply to Lou's reply-kntgetknoh » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 22:26:40
> > Lou but the cogentin is helping so hopefully soon it will no longer be a problem. Phillipa
>
> Phillipa,
> The poster wrote that cogentin helps but not enough, which is what I responded to.
> There are cases of Tardive Dyskinesia that never go away, even with taking other drugs.
> Lou
>Friends,
Tardive dyskinesia can be life-lasting. At death, it goes away.
I know of no treatment to stop TD.
I am prohibited here from posting what I know about TD as to its cause and the history of the drugs that cause it. IMHHHO, if there were not prohibitions to me here from Mr. Hsiung that prevent me from posting educational material concerning TD in relation to the history and use of mind-altering drugs, then I think that some people here that have TD or will get TD would not get TD. If you want to know this, have your prescriber contact me and then they could pass it on to you so that you could make a more informed decision as to take drugs or not that could cause TD
Lou
Posted by Willful on May 31, 2012, at 10:23:03
In reply to Lou's reply-kntgetknoh-continued, posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2012, at 22:38:43
TD does always go away, although it can take a long time. This is a fact that was confirmed for me by my pdoc.
After consideration, I believe what my pdoc told me. He's a recognized expert in psychopharmacology and knows a great deal more than Lou. Not only does he read more in the area, but he has great clinical experience, skills and judgment that Lou doesn't. So as far as I"m concerned, Lou should inform himself about topics on which he continually tries to scare people, in the most elevated language possible.
Lou basically doesn't know what he's talking about.
So I hope no one, especially anyone who's experiencing any sort of TD is taking his remarks on this subject seriously. I understand being afraid of TD--- and it can be long-lasting, which is why anyone on a drug that potentially causes it should be monitored fairly closely over time. But I can't understand spreading false and depressing misinformation about it to people who are experiencing it. It's really cruel, even if it's motivated by a delusional belief that one is saving people.
Posted by Christ_empowered on June 1, 2012, at 18:43:42
In reply to Re:TD DOES go away, posted by Willful on May 31, 2012, at 10:23:03
yeah...TD isn't always a life long deal. The same antioxidant uber-cocktail I take to tackle my crazy and prevent TD has been used (at least, some parts of it) to help treat TD. From what I've read, vitamin E therapy in particular can be helpful if used in high doses and also in cases of 5 years or less durtation. The problem, of course, is that by the time TD pops up, you may have had TD that was masked by the neuroleptic for a while. Also, long-standing TD is associated with reduced cognitive performance, so its more than a bit troubling for us neuroleptic patients out there.
What I hate about psychiatrists' approach to TD is that it seems to be one of either disregard or concern for legal fall out. I've had maybe one psychiatrist (public health) who said she'd do AIMS tests and work out a long-term treatment plan if I showed early signs of TD. Everybody else acts like its the 60s again (TD?!? Not with these miracle wonder drugs! Nooooooo, never!) OR they just make you sign waivers.
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 2, 2012, at 4:34:54
In reply to Re:TD DOES go away, posted by Christ_empowered on June 1, 2012, at 18:43:42
> yeah...TD isn't always a life long deal. The same antioxidant uber-cocktail I take to tackle my crazy and prevent TD has been used (at least, some parts of it) to help treat TD. From what I've read, vitamin E therapy in particular can be helpful if used in high doses and also in cases of 5 years or less durtation. The problem, of course, is that by the time TD pops up, you may have had TD that was masked by the neuroleptic for a while. Also, long-standing TD is associated with reduced cognitive performance, so its more than a bit troubling for us neuroleptic patients out there.
>
> What I hate about psychiatrists' approach to TD is that it seems to be one of either disregard or concern for legal fall out. I've had maybe one psychiatrist (public health) who said she'd do AIMS tests and work out a long-term treatment plan if I showed early signs of TD. Everybody else acts like its the 60s again (TD?!? Not with these miracle wonder drugs! Nooooooo, never!) OR they just make you sign waivers.C_e,
You wrote,[...TD isn't always a life long deal...to help treat TD...make you sign waivers...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. If TD is not always a life long deal, then there are three classes of people with TD, one that lasts for life and the other class that it goes away and another class of people that the TD is just lessened?
B. If in the class that goes away,if there is such a class of people, does it go away completly or is there just some lessening of the TD by the use of vitamine E and what else you listed?
C. In the class of people that TD is lessened, if there is such a class, how much lessening is there?
D. Do you know how the drugs associated with TD cause the condition?
E. Are you aware of the prohibitions to me here by Mr. Hsiung that prevent me from posting educational material that I think could save lives and prevent people from getting a life-ruining condition such as TD that does not go away?
F. If not, could you go to the admin board and read the outstanding requests from me to Mr. Hsiung? If you could, I think that you could have a better understanding of the limitations placed upon me here by Mr. Hsiung so that my responses posted here, or lack of them, could be better understood.
Lou
Posted by sk85 on June 5, 2012, at 10:33:27
In reply to Lou's request-TD can be permanent » Christ_empowered, posted by Lou Pilder on June 2, 2012, at 4:34:54
I don't how to deliver this, so that no one takes it as a depressing news, because that is not my point. I have a tardive dystonia (so not quite dyskinesia, but they are related). From what I have learned and experienced myself is that at least tardive dystonia seems to be quite reluctant to go away with time. I have it already for 4 years with stable symptoms.
Some of these newer medication related movement disorders don't seem to have nothing to do with oxidative damage as some of the posters above have suggested, although, in some older generation neuroleptics this can be a significant contributor. Although one can never be too safe and taking antioxidants can't hurt much either. It's just that one shouldn't fool him/herself into thinking that they will absolutely protect from TD.
I tend to believe that with some newer neuroleptics the risk of TD is very low or absent altogether. For example I have taken Seroquel to actually help with dystonia. Although it wasn't a wonder drug either, it certainly didn't make it worse. What helps me most is clomipramine. Perhaps because dystonia (and OCD) has something to do with malfunctioning basal ganglia and clomipramine works a lot on that brain structure. So my point is that even though drug induced movement disorders can be persisting it appears there are many remedies that one can try out once it has appeared, search the Pubmed and you'll find a lot of case reports. The best strategy to avoid permanent/persisting TD is IMHO to recognise it at the most earliest stage and withdrwa from the offending medication.-Ikaros
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2012, at 16:51:06
In reply to Re: Lou's request-TD can be permanent, posted by sk85 on June 5, 2012, at 10:33:27
> I don't how to deliver this, so that no one takes it as a depressing news, because that is not my point. I have a tardive dystonia (so not quite dyskinesia, but they are related). From what I have learned and experienced myself is that at least tardive dystonia seems to be quite reluctant to go away with time. I have it already for 4 years with stable symptoms.
> Some of these newer medication related movement disorders don't seem to have nothing to do with oxidative damage as some of the posters above have suggested, although, in some older generation neuroleptics this can be a significant contributor. Although one can never be too safe and taking antioxidants can't hurt much either. It's just that one shouldn't fool him/herself into thinking that they will absolutely protect from TD.
> I tend to believe that with some newer neuroleptics the risk of TD is very low or absent altogether. For example I have taken Seroquel to actually help with dystonia. Although it wasn't a wonder drug either, it certainly didn't make it worse. What helps me most is clomipramine. Perhaps because dystonia (and OCD) has something to do with malfunctioning basal ganglia and clomipramine works a lot on that brain structure. So my point is that even though drug induced movement disorders can be persisting it appears there are many remedies that one can try out once it has appeared, search the Pubmed and you'll find a lot of case reports. The best strategy to avoid permanent/persisting TD is IMHO to recognise it at the most earliest stage and withdrwa from the offending medication.
>
> -IkarosFriends,
If you are interested in this thread, I am requesting that you read what is in the following link that has educational material.
Lou
http://www.power2u.org/articles/selfhelp/tardive.html
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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