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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sukarno on November 15, 2010, at 11:26:16
In reply to Re: tianeptine » Conundrum, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 14, 2010, at 21:49:20
>
> >
> > Thats what the first we was like for me. It got better thought, and I returned to my baseline depression.
> >
> > I have about 4 days left of pills. Hopefully it kicks in or I"m done with it.
>
> Did it also make you more anxious at first? I'm getting this horrible adrenaline sensation which Sukarno describes.
>
>The alleged adrenaline sensation finally went away 2 or 3 days ago with me and now I haven't used my lightbox in almost a week, but the majority (75 to 90% if I had to put a number on it) of the depression is gone. Usually if I skip just 1 day of light therapy my depression returns and if I miss 2 days it is horrible.
I feel relaxed now even though I'm in an adverse situation. I really dislike (hate is a better word even though I don't like to use it) Indonesia. I can't wait to go back to the US as I've been trapped here for nearly 10 years. I can imagine how effective Stablon would be if I was in the US again. Heck, I probably wouldn't even need an antidepressant. Light therapy would probably be enough.
I'm still taking 1/2 tablet 4x/day and only needed to take Valium once to counter the adrenaline-like effects.
I hope it works out for you! :-)
Regards,
Paul
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
In reply to Re: tianeptine, posted by sukarno on November 15, 2010, at 11:26:16
Thanks for your response sukarno. A couple of questions, if you don't mind -
a) What does the anti-depressant effect actually feel when it manifests? So far, after 4 days on the drug, I don't feel particularly depressed, but my hopeless mood has been replaced by a kind of serene apathy, similar to that induced by SSRIs (as conundrum has stated). There have been moments where I get a little, mildly euphoric buzz and feel really connected to people/my surroundings, which is great, but I take it that's not what I should be looking for . .?
Unfortunately, it's that stimulating effect which is most beneficial for my motivation and concentration. I see some people taking 4-6 tabs and wonder if I may be underdosing (though obviously it's too early to tell), or if they're just chasing a certain effect?
and b) do you find that the anxiolytic effects build over time? My hypervigilance has completely died down, and like I say I feel really calm and serene, but unfortunately there has been no positive effect on my worrying and OCD-related intrusive thoughts. I'm not sure if you're prone to GAD or anxiety outside of your panic disorder, but do the benefits in that respect take time, as with SSRIs?
thanks :)
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 16, 2010, at 7:02:03
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
To make things even more confusing - when I tried sri drugs in the past year (fluoxetine and clomipramine) they actually improved the strength of my erections (though not sensation) where as on stablon I see no pro-sexual benefits whatsoever.
Posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:26:12
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
> Thanks for your response sukarno. A couple of questions, if you don't mind -
>
> a) What does the anti-depressant effect actually feel when it manifests? So far, after 4 days on the drug, I don't feel particularly depressed, but my hopeless mood has been replaced by a kind of serene apathy, similar to that induced by SSRIs (as conundrum has stated). There have been moments where I get a little, mildly euphoric buzz and feel really connected to people/my surroundings, which is great, but I take it that's not what I should be looking for . .?--
Hi! I'm glad you are getting some relief now. Unfortunately, in my experience, I only felt that adrenaline-like buzz or motivation in the beginning. In the long-term it is more like an anxiolytic and the antidepressant effect tended to poop out. I raised the dose and that helped my mood again for a long time but eventually I was up to 6 tablets/day.
I guess it causes some feeling of serene apathy. Things don't bother me as much as before. I felt though that Prozac was a lot worse and also affected my libido adversely whereas Stablon only slightly affects it (maybe a 10 or 15% reduction in libido in the long run vs Prozac's 90%+ reduction).
>
> Unfortunately, it's that stimulating effect which is most beneficial for my motivation and concentration. I see some people taking 4-6 tabs and wonder if I may be underdosing (though obviously it's too early to tell), or if they're just chasing a certain effect?
>---
I wonder if they are taking that much because they need that much to obtain an antidepressant effect or if they were on a lower dose and it worked, but then it pooped out so they had to keep raising it.
I found that I could get a good buzz on it in the long term (after being on it for a year). I could take 2 at once in the morning and feel a mild to moderate euphoria. I tried 3 once and that was more intense but it was so much different than any other drug. There was a mixed anxiolytic/stimulant effect. I felt laid back and so comfortable and the music sounded awesome..body felt numbish.. but I also felt stimulated. My pulse though was normal (70bpm) and that effect was short-lived.. perhaps 90 minutes tops. After that I felt like sleeping.
Some people abuse it for the stimulant effect and others abuse it for the anxiolytic effect. I think there's just a mixture of both at the same time. Probably it is calming down the glutamate receptors, lowering cortisol production and also increasing dopamine a bit at higher doses.
> and b) do you find that the anxiolytic effects build over time? My hypervigilance has completely died down, and like I say I feel really calm and serene, but unfortunately there has been no positive effect on my worrying and OCD-related intrusive thoughts. I'm not sure if you're prone to GAD or anxiety outside of your panic disorder, but do the benefits in that respect take time, as with SSRIs?
>
> thanks :)---
I found that the anxiolytic effects became more pronounced with time. It seems to be a better anxiolytic after years of taking it. If your depression is caused by anxiety though, I would think Stablon would help it. If depression is the primary problem I fear that you will have to increase the dose in the long run, but everyone is different.
There is a report in the literature that Stablon can exacerbate OCD. That's only one case report though, so I'm not sure if it is scientific. I think we need many more reports before we can say there is causation.
I think Stablon (with long-term use) gave me obsessive thoughts about sex and gambling. hehheh.. I suspect this is due to its effects on dopamine. I could control these thoughts, but casinos don't exist in Indonesia and gambling is illegal. It was also strange having a slightly lower libido, yet thinking more about sex.
The available evidence says that patients who abuse Stablon (or its cousin amineptine, which has a different mode of action) didn't do so until they were on it for at least a year. My psychiatrist said that only 10% end up psychologically dependent on it, so that's not so bad. Thinking positively, 90% don't find it to be habit-forming. I don't know where he got the 10% figure.. it could be arbitrary.
When Survector was pulled from the market there were 500 documented/reported cases of abuse. With Stablon there have only been 141. I'm sure the number for both drugs is higher as a lot of people don't report abuse or the need to keep escalating the dose.
The good news is that Stablon doesn't cause weight gain or compulsive eating or at least not that I know of. It also doesn't lower libido enough to cause people to quit taking it and is relatively easier to taper off relative to SSRIs.
The early reports about increasing the range of emotions was probably based on the activating effects obtained in the short term or on the assumption that Stablon is an SSRE, so because it must "act in the opposite way as SSRIs" it should not cause emotional blunting.
I think it does cause some emotional blunting in the long term and is relaxing, but definitely nowhere near as much as Prozac did to me.
Do you find that it is causing you emotional blunting just like that caused by SSRIs? Is it negatively affecting libido?
I remember Prozac zapping my libido by 95% in the first two weeks on it and that was just a low dose.
Good luck and keep us updated. I hope it works for you.
It's really too bad that amineptine isn't around (or you have to pay outrageous prices from a guy selling it online.. made in a private laboratory). That was supposed to be one of, if not the best for treatment-resistant depression and put libido through the roof.
:-)
Regards,
Paul
Posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:43:28
In reply to Re: tianeptine, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 16, 2010, at 7:02:03
I found some pro-sexual effects from Stablon when I would increase the dose, but not always. It was uncommon. I remember after increasing the dose, I woke up in the morning with a lot more interest, but when I tapered off (40 day taper) completely I felt my libido returning and was surprised as I hadn't realized that tianeptine was lowering it. I thought maybe because the antidepressant effect was pooping out in the long run which then caused libido to decrease. Depression can lower libido as can anxiety.
However, take one tablet of amineptine and go to bed.. then wake up with an erection and in the mood like never before. hahhah..
Posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:07:32
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
>There have been moments where I get a little, mildly euphoric buzz and feel really connected to people/my surroundings, which is great, but I take it that's not what I should be looking for . .?
Why not?
Beggars can't be choosers.
Posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:11:35
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:26:12
>I think Stablon (with long-term use) gave me obsessive thoughts about sex and gambling. hehheh.. I suspect this is due to its effects on dopamine. I could control these thoughts, but casinos don't exist in Indonesia and gambling is illegal. It was also strange having a slightly lower libido, yet thinking more about sex.
That sounds right.
I take it by libido you mean capacity?
Posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:14:18
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:43:28
>However, take one tablet of amineptine and go to bed.. then wake up with an erection and in the mood like never before. hahhah..
Bugger.
I can see why they banned it.
You don't want people to be undepressed and having sex without having to suffer side effects.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 17, 2010, at 6:15:36
In reply to Re: tianeptine » Conundrum, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 14, 2010, at 21:49:20
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 17, 2010, at 6:49:38
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:26:12
>
> Hi! I'm glad you are getting some relief now. >Unfortunately, in my experience, I only felt >that adrenaline-like buzz or motivation in the >beginning.Unfortunately, it seems that I spoke a little too soon :( The effects seem to be varying wildly from day-to-day. Yesterday, I felt great, but today that adrenaline-like stimulation is back. For me, it isn't motivating though - I feel like my skin is crawling with anxiety.
>
> There is a report in the literature that Stablon can exacerbate OCD. That's only one case >report though, so I'm not sure if it is >scientific. I think we need many more reports >before we can say there is causation.It's definitely exacerbating OCD in me, and even OC spectrum traits like ADD hyperfocus, e.g. when working on projects, I find it much harder to just let go and go do something else. I read a post on another board from one guy who wrote to a researcher who claimed that the drug should exacerbate OCD in the short-term but help it in the long-term.
I'm still a little confused about how the drug works . . so does the reuptake of serotonin cause the body's homeostatic mechanism to kick in? Is that while it might only help OCD in the long-term, i.e. once the body's compensated for the drug's action? I wonder how long that process would take, because to be honest, I don't think I could last months like this.
> Do you find that it is causing you emotional >blunting just like that caused by SSRIs? Is it >negatively affecting libido?
Yeah, it is causing a little emotional blunting, though strangely I've been able to cry again while watching movies, which I haven't been able to do for a couple of years (and I haven't been on any meds, aside from brief trials, during that period. . I've just been numb from depression).
Yeah, my libido's also down, though not the mental aspect, which is a pity, because I'm (too much information) a little obsessed with thinking about sex.
>
> I remember Prozac zapping my libido by 95% in the first two weeks on it and that was just a low dose.
>
> Good luck and keep us updated. I hope it works for you.
>:)
Posted by Conundrum on November 17, 2010, at 8:56:10
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:14:18
> >However, take one tablet of amineptine and go to bed.. then wake up with an erection and in the mood like never before. hahhah..
>
> Bugger.
> I can see why they banned it.
> You don't want people to be undepressed and having sex without having to suffer side effects.And passing along their depression DNA into the gene pool
Posted by sukarno on November 17, 2010, at 14:13:29
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 17, 2010, at 6:49:38
I feel a headache for an hour or two after taking a dose. Do you get headaches too?
I looked up my old posts here about Stablon from 2005 and found that I experienced the adrenaline-like effects in the beginning. It went away for a day or two only to return again once more and finally died off 3 weeks into treatment. I never experienced adrenaline-like effects again as I continued with Stablon for another 5 years.
I suspect it is just a start-up side effect. I'm also on Xanax which helps to minimize the jitters and inner tension.
I felt so relaxed yesterday. I usually don't watch TV, but decided to sit back on the couch with the remote control and watch it for several hours until I fell asleep. hehheh.
My depression feels like it is in remission. I still haven't used the lightbox. I shudder to think how bad my depression would be right now if I hadn't been taking this medication. I also quit caffeine 5 to 7 days ago and usually that will send me into a severe depression but I feel okay.
Usually antidepressants take weeks to work, although some say Stablon works more quickly.
I certainly hope you feel better. You can cut the tablets in half and lower the dose as you feel anxious. I had to raise and lower the dose a lot back in 2005 for the first three weeks. After that it was smooth sailing though. I hope you do well on it.
Paul
Posted by morgan miller on November 19, 2010, at 19:13:24
In reply to [unsubscribing] (nm), posted by Brainbeard on November 17, 2010, at 6:15:36
Huh? Does this mean you are unsubscribing as a member of PB, brainbeard?
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 19, 2010, at 20:19:59
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 17, 2010, at 14:13:29
> I feel a headache for an hour or two after taking a dose. Do you get headaches too?
I haven't had any headaches, no . .
>
> I looked up my old posts here about Stablon from 2005 and found that I experienced the adrenaline-like effects in the beginning. It went away for a day or two only to return again once more and finally died off 3 weeks into treatment. I never experienced adrenaline-like effects again as I continued with Stablon for another 5 years.
>Hey, when you say "adrenaline-like effect", does the sensation resemble, say, the stimulation you might get from coffee, or is it closer to panic-like anxiety?
The reason I ask is because for me it's closer to the latter, and the feeling has unfortunately been escalating over the course of my trial. Yesterday it became completely unbearable and I spent the day with my chest closed up, barely able to breathe, and feeling so fatigued that I couldn't even go for a jog.
I take it this might not be a typical reaction to Stablon, and I'm wondering if lowering cortisol might not be beneficial in my case. Maybe I'll try lowering the dose today, but I'm not sure I could last two more weeks like this; yesterday was frightening.
Posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:14:35
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 19, 2010, at 20:19:59
> Hey, when you say "adrenaline-like effect", does the sensation resemble, say, the stimulation you might get from coffee, or is it closer to panic-like anxiety?
---
It feels like the fight-or-flight response. I was on a benzodiazepine at the time so that somewhat dampened the feeling, but I can imagine that if you are not on some sort of anxiolytic that Stablon could drive your anxiety through the roof for the first few weeks.
> The reason I ask is because for me it's closer to the latter, and the feeling has unfortunately been escalating over the course of my trial. Yesterday it became completely unbearable and I spent the day with my chest closed up, barely able to breathe, and feeling so fatigued that I couldn't even go for a jog.---
I've had the feeling that my breathing was worse when I increased the dose (and sometimes in the beginning when I first tried it). There's a side effect listed that says "respiratory discomfort". It helps asthma but seems to have some paradoxical reactions (it could be due to anxiety) in the beginning or when ramping up the dose.
> I take it this might not be a typical reaction to Stablon, and I'm wondering if lowering cortisol might not be beneficial in my case. Maybe I'll try lowering the dose today, but I'm not sure I could last two more weeks like this; yesterday was frightening.
I would lower the dose. In 2005 I lowered it to one tablet a day for a while and then gradually made it up to three tablets a day.
Do you think these are worse than the side effects you get when you begin SSRIs or about the same (or less)?
You might want to ask your doctor for some clonazepam (Klonopin / Rivotril) or another long-acting benzodiazepine for a few days to help you get through the anxious phase.
Stablon seems to make things worse before they get better, but when they got better I really felt good and there was no anxiety at all (for me anyway after 3 weeks).
I don't think I'd be able to start on Stablon without a benzodiazepine as co-medication for the first 1 to 2 weeks.
Some folks say it really makes them feel wired and anxious, but that effect is only temporary.
I did feel like I wanted to jump out of my skin for a few days and diazepam helped a lot (5mg tablet).Vistaril / Atarax (hydroxyzine) is also good for anxiety and can be taken with Stablon as far as I know and doctors will easily prescribe that as it isn't a controlled substance.
Hang in there. Stablon won't kill libido or cause massive weight gain at least. ;-) It's really worth it when the anxiolytic and antidepressant effects fully manifest themselves.
Take care!
Regards,
Paul
Posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:16:34
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:14:35
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 19, 2010, at 23:23:47
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:14:35
> > Hey, when you say "adrenaline-like effect", does the sensation resemble, say, the stimulation you might get from coffee, or is it closer to panic-like anxiety?
>
> ---
>
> It feels like the fight-or-flight response. I was on a benzodiazepine at the time so that somewhat dampened the feeling, but I can imagine that if you are not on some sort of anxiolytic that Stablon could drive your anxiety through the roof for the first few weeks.Ah, that's good to hear. Yeah, the anxiety is insane to be honest; it isn't pleasant stimulation, a la caffeine, but rather accompanied by severe muscle tension, agitation, etc.
>
> > The reason I ask is because for me it's closer to the latter, and the feeling has unfortunately been escalating over the course of my trial. Yesterday it became completely unbearable and I spent the day with my chest closed up, barely able to breathe, and feeling so fatigued that I couldn't even go for a jog.
>
> ---
>
> I've had the feeling that my breathing was worse when I increased the dose (and sometimes in the beginning when I first tried it). There's a side effect listed that says "respiratory discomfort". It helps asthma but seems to have some paradoxical reactions (it could be due to anxiety) in the beginning or when ramping up the dose.Yeah, it feels like my chest is closing up.
>
> > I take it this might not be a typical reaction to Stablon, and I'm wondering if lowering cortisol might not be beneficial in my case. Maybe I'll try lowering the dose today, but I'm not sure I could last two more weeks like this; yesterday was frightening.
>
> I would lower the dose. In 2005 I lowered it to one tablet a day for a while and then gradually made it up to three tablets a day.Hehe, the only problem is I'm really impatient, and take the "rip the band-aid off quickly" approach, so will typically just try and ride out the side-effects. I'll try backing down for a bit. How long were you on one tablet for?
>
> Do you think these are worse than the side effects you get when you begin SSRIs or about the same (or less)?Far worse, to be honest! The only good thing is there's no apathy/anhedonia.
>
> You might want to ask your doctor for some clonazepam (Klonopin / Rivotril) or another long-acting benzodiazepine for a few days to help you get through the anxious phase.My doctor doesn't know I'm taking Stablon :( He was meant to look into it for me, but forgot; doctor appointments here are really expensive, and I got impatient, so just bought some online.
>
> Stablon seems to make things worse before they get better, but when they got better I really felt good and there was no anxiety at all (for me anyway after 3 weeks).
>
> I don't think I'd be able to start on Stablon without a benzodiazepine as co-medication for the first 1 to 2 weeks.
>
> Some folks say it really makes them feel wired and anxious, but that effect is only temporary.
> I did feel like I wanted to jump out of my skin for a few days and diazepam helped a lot (5mg tablet).
>
> Vistaril / Atarax (hydroxyzine) is also good for anxiety and can be taken with Stablon as far as I know and doctors will easily prescribe that as it isn't a controlled substance.
>
> Hang in there. Stablon won't kill libido or cause massive weight gain at least. ;-) It's really worth it when the anxiolytic and antidepressant effects fully manifest themselves.
>
> Take care!
>
> Regards,
> PaulThanks, you too!
Posted by Brainbeard on November 20, 2010, at 13:49:57
In reply to Re: [unsubscribing] » Brainbeard, posted by morgan miller on November 19, 2010, at 19:13:24
> Huh? Does this mean you are unsubscribing as a member of PB, brainbeard?
No, not quite so dramatic, in fact, I was trying to unsubscribe from this topic as I got thousands of email notifications and was no longer interested in the thread (or no longer have time to be interested in it). But thanks for asking!
Posted by morgan miller on November 20, 2010, at 21:29:50
In reply to Re: [unsubscribing], posted by Brainbeard on November 20, 2010, at 13:49:57
Yeah I don't know what I was thinking. My hurting brain : ( I figured out it was about the thread.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 21, 2010, at 0:20:08
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 19, 2010, at 23:23:47
Well, I lowered my dose to half a tablet 3x a day, and most of the physical anxiety went away, so I'll see how things progress. Unfortunately, no effect on my mental anxiety/OCD yet, though it does seem to be helping my depression.
Posted by Conundrum on November 21, 2010, at 11:52:43
In reply to success ! (sorta), posted by g_g_g_unit on November 21, 2010, at 0:20:08
> Well, I lowered my dose to half a tablet 3x a day, and most of the physical anxiety went away, so I'll see how things progress. Unfortunately, no effect on my mental anxiety/OCD yet, though it does seem to be helping my depression.
Sounds good. I've heard of people taking SSRIs with it, maybe that would be an option for OCD. I've run out of tianeptine, and I've noticed a decrease in tense feeling as well. I thought it was the SAM-E, since some report anxiety with it, but it must have been a boost in dopamine from the tianeptine, or both. One day I felt like I just had to get up and move around. I also had some stress going on at the time as well. The thing I really do not like about tianeptine is that is has such a short half life and you can feel the effect of the drug entering and leaving your system. I want my drugs to be transparent, meaning, I don't feel like I'm on one. Also it didn't help me at all so I guess its not a good drug for me.
Posted by sigismund on November 23, 2010, at 11:29:32
In reply to success ! (sorta), posted by g_g_g_unit on November 21, 2010, at 0:20:08
Sometimes I would end up having to take extra Valium with it because of the anxiety it caused.
I suppose I would describe the anxiety as a rabbit in the headlights kind of effect.
It didn't always happen. More at the end than at the beginning.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 24, 2010, at 0:21:49
In reply to Re: [unsubscribing], posted by Brainbeard on November 20, 2010, at 13:49:57
> I was trying to unsubscribe from this topic
See:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#cancel
Bob
Posted by Brainbeard on November 24, 2010, at 2:31:14
In reply to Re: [unsubscribing], posted by Dr. Bob on November 24, 2010, at 0:21:49
Posted by Dave44 on December 12, 2010, at 18:38:21
In reply to more side effects of Stablon I forgot to list, posted by sukarno on November 4, 2010, at 2:45:56
I've developed anxiety/depression from Lyme disease I had a year and a half ago.
Last year I tried Zoloft, Lexapro and Wellbutrin with no effect and many scary side effects.
Six days ago I started Stablon at one tablet cut in half. Now I'm up to 3 tablets a day. I didn't really notice any side effects until the 3 tablet level. I'm not even sure if it's a side effect but it seems like the anxiety is more intense. The last couple of days I've had to take 2-3 mg of valium to deal the muscle tightness in my chest.
So far the depression is very intense in the morning but seems to fade as the anxiety builds during the day. My sleep which has been poor seems a little better with Stablon. However, I still wake up at 4:30am and within a few minutes the anxiety jumps on me.
I'm also taking hydrocortisone for low cortisol and Armour thyroid.
I sure hope the positive effects of Stablon kick in within a couple of weeks. Otherwise I guess I'll have to taper off.
Any advice on what to look for in the way of the first positive effects?
Dave
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