![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 64 to 88 of 88. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2010, at 18:30:07
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope- Dr. Bob, posted by Justherself54 on June 20, 2010, at 15:05:40
> Can you or someone explain to me why this thread has been allowed to remain on the medication board? This board is supposed to be for support and education.
>
> Frick sakes Dr. Bob. I hold you partly responsible for letting this get out of hand in the first place.I accept partial responsibility. I'd also like to redirect follow-ups regarding this thread remaining on this board to Psycho-Babble Administration. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/951774.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Hombre on June 22, 2010, at 4:36:49
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 21, 2010, at 11:12:12
I apologize for the triple post. My connection was slow and I guess I got impatient.
---
bobman - I wish you continued health and hope that someday you are able to put all your research together into something that can help others. I mean that in a truly hopeful way, I just don't know how to phrase it without it sounding condescending or whatever. I'm sure you get my drift.
Posted by emme on June 22, 2010, at 6:04:05
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
> I have not posted in the acceptance of meds gives me happiness thread because I would have nothing positive to say.
>
> If people are happy taking meds and feel that they are essential then I think it is wise to ignore all the bad studies and statistics that are coming out about there long term use.
>
> If you are one of these people then don't read on because this will not help you.
>
> This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
>
>
> Did you know that Depression was originally one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment?
>
> Here is a quote from anatomy of an epidemic.
>
> "The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
>
> Does anyone else believe this or have I been spooked by an 'aids denier'?
>
>
I am curious. If you have decided that medication is not the path for you, then why are you reading and posting on a board specifically dedicated to mutual support in the use of medication?I'm not trying to change your mind, or to imply that you are not welcome as a variety of viewpoints makes for interesting discussion. I'm just curious as to what the draw is for you.
Posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 6:34:24
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by emme on June 22, 2010, at 6:04:05
> I am curious. If you have decided that medication is not the path for you, then why are you reading and posting on a board specifically dedicated to mutual support in the use of medication?
>
> I'm not trying to change your mind, or to imply that you are not welcome as a variety of viewpoints makes for interesting discussion. I'm just curious as to what the draw is for you.
>
Hi Emme,I wanted to respond even though your post isn't addressed to me.
I visit and post on these boards because I noticed there are several people who seem to have doubts about medication and wonder if there is another way.
Also, I see so many people tapering way too quickly and wondering why they're suffering so much.
So hopefully, by posting my story about getting off of meds by tapering slowly after 15 years on them, I can be an inspiration to people.
Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area. If I am going to be successful, I need to be familiar with opposing viewpoints so I know how best to respond.
Even if I don't become advocate, it still helps me to read posts by people who don't agree with me.
49er
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 6:40:29
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » emme, posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 6:34:24
Hi 49er.
> Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area.
What would you be advocating, and who would you be advocating for?
- Scott
Posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 7:20:13
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 6:40:29
> Hi 49er.
>
> > Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area.
>
> What would you be advocating, and who would you be advocating for?
>
>
> - ScottGood question Scott, I don't know.
There are so many pressing issues.
I have thought about starting a local support group for people who want to come off of psych meds. But I worry about legal issues so I would have to make sure that was covered.
But there are other issues that aren't about whether you are pro meds or anti meds. For example, it seems that many mental hospitals are punishment oriented vs. treatment oriented.
http://raisingbipolar.com/2010/06/14/the-psychiatric-hospital-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/
But I don't know if I honestly have the courage to take that on.
Anyway, good question for which I don't yet have an answer.
49er
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 7:34:26
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » SLS, posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 7:20:13
> I have thought about starting a local support group for people who want to come off of psych meds.
I'm sure you would be good at it.
Would you have any mechanism in place that would screen for people for whom discontinuing treatment would be contraindicated? Do you think there is any place for antidepressants, mood stabilizers, or antipsychotics in treating the mentally ill?
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 22, 2010, at 13:49:53
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 20, 2010, at 8:10:17
> I find most of the above to be vodoo science. ... Obviously you are very young and don't have years of experience to see what works and doesn't. ... You lecture those who have been through the school of life.
For the record, bulldog was blocked for 3 weeks on the Social board. bobman, thanks for being civil when when you replied.
Bob
Posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:17:07
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by emme on June 22, 2010, at 6:04:05
> I'm not trying to change your mind, or to imply that you are not welcome as a variety of viewpoints makes for interesting discussion. I'm just curious as to what the draw is for you.
>Hi emme,
That is a good question. I guess I am just venting my displeasure at the experience that I have been subjected to. It is all pretty new to me, I blindly accepted from my dr that I had a chemical imbalance which was being balanced by a drug.
Once I stopped blindly accepting that I need medication and opened my mind to critisim of psychiatry it was like opening the flood gates.
So I guess I am throwing it out there and seeing what people with experience think. I have no interest in converting anyone to my viewpoints. My 'anti-med' posts more came out of anger at what I have been discovering.
I am pleased to find so many people here who have gone through the same thing as me and are doing pretty well for themselves.
Posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:31:12
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » emme, posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 6:34:24
> >
> Hi Emme,
>
> I wanted to respond even though your post isn't addressed to me.
>
> I visit and post on these boards because I noticed there are several people who seem to have doubts about medication and wonder if there is another way.
>
> Also, I see so many people tapering way too quickly and wondering why they're suffering so much.
>
> So hopefully, by posting my story about getting off of meds by tapering slowly after 15 years on them, I can be an inspiration to people.
>
> Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area. If I am going to be successful, I need to be familiar with opposing viewpoints so I know how best to respond.
>
> Even if I don't become advocate, it still helps me to read posts by people who don't agree with me.
>
> 49erHi 49er,
You story has helped me alot so you are already doing some good.
I think there is a need in society for psychmed withdrawal facilities. There is next to no information on withdrawing from psych meds. I am yet to find a doctor who has any idea what they are talking about when it comes to psychmeds.
I ditched my old doctor and saw a new doctor yesterday for his ideas on getting me of Lactimal, Zyprexa and Pristiq.
His plan was this. Stop the lactimal CT, stop the Zyprexa CT and he gave me a starter pack of lexapro and told me to stop taking pristiq and take one lexapro every 4 days until the 10 pack runs out then stop CT.
I explained to him the consequences of doing this and he scoffed at me.
How on earth can anyone have any faith in a medical system when you pay some egotistical jackass $100 for 15 minutes to get ridiculed and advice that will end you up in the emergancy room in a hospital.
So the best resource I have to get of psych meds is people like 49er.
Posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 1:35:28
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:31:12
I have a few questions for those who feel they need meds, dont take these as an attack. It is just the same questions I have asked myself over the last couple of months and would be interested to see how others rationalise it.
Do you feel that you are better off or worse than before you were taking meds?
Do you feel that your illness would have gotten better or worse without meds?
What do you think about the studies showing that SSRIs are no better than placebos?
Do you think it is possible that meds can actually be the cause of a problem and actually make your illness worse?
Do you think that doctors have diagnosed you on the side effects or withdrawals of other drugs, i.e an AD makes you agitated so they see that as bipolar.
Do you feel disheartened by doctors who seem to know nothing about your condition and nothing about the medication they prescribe to you?
Thanks for anyone who answers.
Huxley
Posted by emme on June 23, 2010, at 6:29:48
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 1:35:28
> I have a few questions for those who feel they need meds, dont take these as an attack. It is just the same questions I have asked myself over the last couple of months and would be interested to see how others rationalise it.
Hi there. Just to be clear - my answers below aren't rationalizations but are based on my observations of my experiences with meds over the years.
> Do you feel that you are better off or worse than before you were taking meds?
Better! This isn't to say it happened right away - it took a while to find meds that worked properly.
> Do you feel that your illness would have gotten better or worse without meds?
One cannot prove a negative, so I can't say with 100% certainty that it *never* would have gotten better without meds. BUT, I lived most of my adult life with chronic anxiety, and the depression became so severe that something had to be done, and therapy, exercise, yoga, etc. were not touching it.
> What do you think about the studies showing that SSRIs are no better than placebos?
That issue has been debated here many times, so I won't go into it except to say I tend to agree with those that have pointed out that the screening and selection criteria may not have picked participants who had severe depression and would really benefit from medication.
I am quite sure my responses have not been placebo effect. I have also tried a number of meds that did nothing - I would expect a response to everything if the placebo effect were a major player in my case.
> Do you think it is possible that meds can actually be the cause of a problem and actually make your illness worse?
Sure, if it's the *wrong* med for you. They key to using meds properly is to pay attention to what is going on when you take them. If it doesn't feel right, you talk to the doc and may need to stop. But just because a particular med makes you worse doesn't mean a good treatment is not out there for you.
> Do you think that doctors have diagnosed you on the side effects or withdrawals of other drugs, i.e an AD makes you agitated so they see that as bipolar.
No. My doctors have been aware of discontinuation effects and always believe me when I tell them I believe a certain symptom is a side effect.
> Do you feel disheartened by doctors who seem to know nothing about your condition and nothing about the medication they prescribe to you?
My doctors have been nothing short of WONDERFUL. Very knowledgeable, responsive, conscientious, up to date on research. I know people have had bad experiences. There are poor practitioners in every profession. But there really are terrific psychiatrists out there. After I moved a few years ago, it took a few tries to find the one I'm with now.
I don't mean to say it's easy. It can be hard trying different meds, deciding which side effects are livable if a med is working, sticking with it. But, I'm grateful and lucky to not be in pain all the time and to have a life back.
emme
Posted by chujoe on June 23, 2010, at 6:33:24
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 1:35:28
In the interests of continuing an important conversation, I am breaking my self-imposed silence for this post.
>>Do you feel that you are better off or worse than before you were taking meds?<<
Better. Alive.
>>Do you feel that your illness would have gotten better or worse without meds?<<
Impossible to know. It was unbearable w/o meds.
>>What do you think about the studies showing that SSRIs are no better than placebos?<<
The placebo studies are deeply flawed, including too many people in the samples who are merely unhappy, not ill.
>>Do you think it is possible that meds can actually be the cause of a problem and actually make your illness worse?<<
No. I had the "problem" before I ever took meds; the problem diminished with medication.
>>Do you think that doctors have diagnosed you on the side effects or withdrawals of other drugs, i.e an AD makes you agitated so they see that as bipolar.<<
No. See above.
>>Do you feel disheartened by doctors who seem to know nothing about your condition and nothing about the medication they prescribe to you?<<
I have not had that experience.
=======
Huxley, I'm not sure how old you are, but is it possible that you were actually being treated for adolescence? Adolescence actually produces behaviors and states of mind that clinically can look a lot like psychosis. (See Richard P. Bentall, "Madness Explained".) That would explain many of your reactions. As I have said many times, I think psych drugs are over-prescribed, especially for young people.
Posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 7:28:20
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 7:34:26
>
> I'm sure you would be good at it.
>
> Would you have any mechanism in place that would screen for people for whom discontinuing treatment would be contraindicated? Do you think there is any place for antidepressants, mood stabilizers, or antipsychotics in treating the mentally ill?
>
>
> - ScottI wouldn't have a screening program because I am not a medical professional. Besides, I think it is the person's decision as to whether they want to stay on meds or not.
I would discourage people from discontinuing their meds if I felt they were going to cold turkey or taper them too quickly. But again, it is up to each person to to decide what to do.
I am not against any psych med. If the person has made a fully informed choice to take them, then who am I to say differently?
I just go nuts when I feel they are way over prescribed or when professionals act like meds are the only option come heck or high water when they aren't.
49er
Posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 7:35:37
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:31:12
> Hi 49er,
>
> You story has helped me alot so you are already doing some good.
>
> I think there is a need in society for psychmed withdrawal facilities. There is next to no information on withdrawing from psych meds. I am yet to find a doctor who has any idea what they are talking about when it comes to psychmeds.
>
> I ditched my old doctor and saw a new doctor yesterday for his ideas on getting me of Lactimal, Zyprexa and Pristiq.
>
> His plan was this. Stop the lactimal CT, stop the Zyprexa CT and he gave me a starter pack of lexapro and told me to stop taking pristiq and take one lexapro every 4 days until the 10 pack runs out then stop CT.
>
> I explained to him the consequences of doing this and he scoffed at me.
>
> How on earth can anyone have any faith in a medical system when you pay some egotistical jackass $100 for 15 minutes to get ridiculed and advice that will end you up in the emergancy room in a hospital.
>
> So the best resource I have to get of psych meds is people like 49er.
>
Thank you much Huxley for what you said.I am so sorry about the difficulties you are experiencing. Wow, even drug companies don't advise you to CT anything.
I am very flattered by you calling me an expert. But I wanted to be honest and say I am not a medical professional.
What I have learned is from the paxil progress boards which I strongly advise people to visit if they want help in getting off of these meds. The url is http://www.paxilprogress.org.
It isn't easy by any means and even a slow taper didn't prevent withdrawal symptoms. But seeing how much I am progressing after I stopped the meds has greatly convinced me that going slow is the right strategy.
49er
Posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 7:38:20
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by chujoe on June 23, 2010, at 6:33:24
> Huxley, I'm not sure how old you are, but is it possible that you were actually being treated for adolescence? Adolescence actually produces behaviors and states of mind that clinically can look a lot like psychosis. (See Richard P. Bentall, "Madness Explained".) That would explain many of your reactions. As I have said many times, I think psych drugs are over-prescribed, especially for young people.
Hi,
I am a lot older than Huxley:) and have had nasty reactions to psych meds.
I don't think adverse reactions is limited to a particular age group.
49er
Posted by chujoe on June 23, 2010, at 8:14:20
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » chujoe, posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 7:38:20
I didn't say they were.
Posted by SLS on June 23, 2010, at 10:52:21
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » SLS, posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 7:28:20
> > Would you have any mechanism in place that would screen for people for whom discontinuing treatment would be contraindicated? Do you think there is any place for antidepressants, mood stabilizers, or antipsychotics in treating the mentally ill?
> I wouldn't have a screening program because I am not a medical professional.So, I imagine you would preclude yourself from giving any advice at all because you are not a medical professional?
> Besides, I think it is the person's decision as to whether they want to stay on meds or not.
It would be nice if they had all of the information in order to do that.
> I am not against any psych med. If the person has made a fully informed choice to take them, then who am I to say differently?
So, do you feel it would be desirable to present the information made available by mainstream psychiatric medicine, or are you inclined to ignore it in your presentations?
What do you plan to do when some of the people you counsel decompensate and become unmanageably psychotic or suicidal? I can almost guarantee that this will happen because you make no attempt at evaluating risk.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 11:15:41
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by SLS on June 23, 2010, at 10:52:21
Hi Scott,
Remember, I expressed concern about starting a support group because of legal issues. And one concern I do have is what I would do if someone experienced severe withdrawal issues if they started tapering.
Before I ever got to that point, I would inquire of several people who have done similar things to ask them how they handle this issue. If I didn't like the answers I received, I wouldn't do it.
So really, I don't think I can answer that question.
As far as presenting views, no advocates are completely bias free. Does Nami present the side of people who want to get off meds? I don't think so.
Let me turn the tables on you.
How you define unbiased mainstream psychiatry?
What if you had a loved one who felt he/she was being poisoned by psych meds and wanted to get off after being on them long term?
49er
Posted by SLS on June 23, 2010, at 13:39:16
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » SLS, posted by 49er on June 23, 2010, at 11:15:41
> How you define unbiased mainstream psychiatry?
I hadn't used the word "unbiased". I think each participant in the process will have their biases based upon their exposure, reasoning, and experience. Still, I am impressed with the scientific methods used towards investigating mental illness by many researchers as I encounter them in the medical literature. I think it takes a great deal of personal character to remain open-minded and unbiased. I have been exposed to people like this in the field, so I know that such people exist and that they contribute to what becomes mainstream thought.
> What if you had a loved one who felt he/she was being poisoned by psych meds and wanted to get off after being on them long term?That would depend upon the severity and historical pattern of their untreated illness. If it were mild to moderate depression, I would be supportive of their decision. If it were recurrent suicidal depression, manic psychosis, or paranoid schizophrenia, I would not be supportive of their decision.
- Scott
Posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 18:05:41
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by SLS on June 23, 2010, at 13:39:16
emme, chujoe thanks for the answers. I go over the same questions in my head all the time so it is
good to get others perspectives.It is quite possible I was being treated for adolescence. I think I do have underlying issues. I am prone to anxiety and mild depression. Once thing I am certain off is that I have been over medicated, and medicated on the side effects of previous drugs. It is also evident that either the quailtiy of psych doctors in australia is apalling or I have lucked out with the ones I have seen.
49er, dont worry I am not holding you repsonsible for my decision to discontinue medication. I have made that decision myself. All I was saying is that my best resource, seeing the medical system has completly failed me is people who have done what I am planning to do, like yourself. We all rely on our peers for advice on psych meds.
This whole forum is based on exactly that.SLS I think 49er has the right to take his perspective and offer advice based on his own experiences. I have read PB for a while and I have noticed you offer all sorts of advice on what medications could be helpful.
I don't know if you are a psychiatrist or a trained medical professional but it seems a bit hypocritical to be critisizing
49er as you are doing the exact same thing albeit from an opposite perspective.Cheers Huxley
Posted by 49er on June 24, 2010, at 5:18:35
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 18:05:41
Thanks Huxley, I know you wouldn't hold me responsible. I just wanted newcomers reading my post to know exactly what the situation was.
It is pretty sad we have to come to internet boards to get advice on tapering meds.
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2010, at 5:32:51
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 18:05:41
> SLS I think 49er has the right to take his perspective and offer advice based on his own experiences.
I guess. Still, I have the "right" to offer critiques of his proposed method of operation.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2010, at 15:09:36
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by chujoe on June 23, 2010, at 6:33:24
> I have a few questions for those who feel they need meds
>
> Huxley> In the interests of continuing an important conversation, I am breaking my self-imposed silence for this post.
>
> chujoeHuxley, I'm glad you're also open to hearing perspectives that aren't anti-med. And chujoe, I'm glad your open to providing yours.
Bob
Posted by Chris O on June 28, 2010, at 15:38:26
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
Well, I'm not happy on meds, but I'm even worse without them. They definitely have some impact on the physical symptoms of my anxiety disorder (the horrible feeling of pressure in my body) and they take away my paranoia (I do not worry about people poisoning me all the time in restaurants when on them, a common thought that crosses my mind without them). Anyway, to each his or her own. I'm a total pragmatist. If you find something that heals your wounds, go for it!
This is the end of the thread.
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