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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on April 21, 2010, at 13:21:34
In reply to nothing helps, posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 12:56:57
Hi I surely will respond to you as since hit 64 and getting all these medical conditions. I'm the same what's the point in new meds. Didn't work before why should they work now. Same with family don't visit granddaughter guilty. It stinks to get older and not be vibrant and all happy like you see others. Glad you found babble. I'm glad to have found you. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 16:10:58
In reply to nothing helps, posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 12:56:57
> sorry to sound so pessimistic;
Who could blame you? You are among friends here who have had experiences similar to yours. I have begun to resign myself to living in a depressed state indefinitely. Nothing helps.
It looks as if your doctor is competent based upon the drugs he has selected for you. I had success combining MAOI drugs with TCA drugs twenty years ago. I no longer respond adequately to this treatment. Unfortunately, it is as good as it gets for me. Still, it makes sense to continue trying different treatments as they become available.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on April 21, 2010, at 17:38:07
In reply to nothing helps, posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 12:56:57
There are more people just like you than you realize. Probably in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. Many of us here have our own long stories of struggles and failed drugs.
I don't know if your list of meds was complete or not. I noticed a few glaring examples of things your qualified to try a long time ago. If they haven't been tried, you are long overdue. I am mentioning things that generally score a 4.2 on a 1-5 scale when all of the meds you listed score a 3.2.
Parnate.
Zoloft + Nortriptyline.
Zoloft + Desipramine.
Nardil.
Lexapro or any SSRI + low dose Abilify.If you have not been on Nardil or Parnate, shame shame on your doctors.
I might also have mentioned Prozac + Zyprexa, but the above have more potential in my opinion.
Since your entire history seems completely limited to reuptake inhibitor drugs, I would suggest wasting no time to switch to a totally different animal...MAOIs.
Askapatient.com is a good place to go and see what others have to say about their drugs. You'll see Parnate and Nardil score much higher than all the others.
Psychotropical.com is a great place to go read the writings of Dr Gillman. There you will see the success he has had in over 1000 patients with either Parnate or Zoloft+Nortriptyline, as well as some other useful tidbits.
Posted by linkadge on April 21, 2010, at 17:45:29
In reply to Re: nothing helps » Linda Bee, posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 16:10:58
Meds are just one tool in the chest. They can help, but sometimes there are other things in ones life that need to change before things start ticking.
Do you have any social supports?
Linkadge
Posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 19:22:10
In reply to Re: nothing helps » Linda Bee, posted by Phillipa on April 21, 2010, at 13:21:34
Thank you for your kind words. We seem to be of same mind. Do you live alone? If there is anything I can do to help you, please let me know. I am a good listener and a retired CSW. I wish I could heal myself but I don't listen to me.
Posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 19:30:10
In reply to Re: nothing helps » Linda Bee, posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 16:10:58
SLS: Appreciate your comments. About 15 years ago, my then-dr suggested some of the older drugs. I remember there was a problem with weight gain and I've battled my propensity toward fat most of my life. My dr never pushed them. As for a MAO inhibitor, with the many severe food interactions, I would be scared to death to try it.
Posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 19:39:02
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by bleauberry on April 21, 2010, at 17:38:07
One of you seemed very knowledgeable about meds. Are you a health professional? As I mentioned in another response, none of my drs ever really encouraged the older drugs. And I am afraid to take an MAO inhibitor. But I will ask my dr about the old drugs and why none has been prescribed.
BTW, I know I am not unique. But that doesnt matter. People feel as bad as they feel. It isnt relative.
Posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 19:51:14
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by linkadge on April 21, 2010, at 17:45:29
Re: support. I am married so at least I'm not alone. My two daughters are not interested. My friends are not very available; 3 work and one is usually spends time in her other homes. Nevertheless, I do not talk to anyone about my feelings; it's boring for them and self-indulgent of me. I do believe exercise can help but I am lazy. Volunteer work with mentally ill teenagers which I did once for a short time, was rewarding. Made me get out of my self-absorption. But again I am unmotivated. That's the dilemma most people face: you have to be in a good mood to fight depression.
Thank you all for your thoughts. Surely, your "company" makes one feel somewhat less lonely.
Posted by Phillipa on April 21, 2010, at 21:36:55
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 19:22:10
Linda was a certified psych RN so in the medical field and worked all the areas before settling there. I have an unsupportive husband. I've made bad choices in my life. Fear of being alone even for five minutes can't handle. Three grown kids no interest in me. Long stories. Do you know how to turn your babblemail on? If not see my name in blue? Click on it and a screen appears you type a message that is private to me and at the bottom hit send I get it and can write back to you privately also. Love Phillipa
Posted by bulldog2 on April 22, 2010, at 8:18:24
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by Linda Bee on April 21, 2010, at 19:51:14
> Re: support. I am married so at least I'm not alone. My two daughters are not interested. My friends are not very available; 3 work and one is usually spends time in her other homes. Nevertheless, I do not talk to anyone about my feelings; it's boring for them and self-indulgent of me. I do believe exercise can help but I am lazy. Volunteer work with mentally ill teenagers which I did once for a short time, was rewarding. Made me get out of my self-absorption. But again I am unmotivated. That's the dilemma most people face: you have to be in a good mood to fight depression.
>
> Thank you all for your thoughts. Surely, your "company" makes one feel somewhat less lonely.Another possibility is clomipramine which is a tca and does not require food restrictions. Of the maois emsam, parnate and marplan do not usually cause weight gain. The diet is really no big deal. Your depressions sounds atypical which tend to respond well to the maois.
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 17:39:43
In reply to Re: nothing helps » Linda Bee, posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 16:10:58
Scott, don't you think depression goes beyond just a biochemical issue? Isn't it possible that along with having a biological/genetic predisposition, there are actual things in our lives that are causing us to be more depressed than the average person. I mean, life in and of itself can be pretty depressing, IMO.
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 17:45:08
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by bleauberry on April 21, 2010, at 17:38:07
What about taking supplements, exercising, therapy and a proper diet as adjuncts to antidepressant treatments? Have you tried any of these for a long enough period of time to see if they will work?
Do you take fish oil? Have you tried Rhodiola? You can take both of these with your antidepressants without any issues.
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2010, at 20:12:01
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 17:45:08
Hi Morganator.
First, I would like to acknowledge your genuine and sincere efforts to help me get well. You are surely one of the good ones.
> Scott, don't you think depression goes beyond just a biochemical issue?
I wouldn't venture to explain all depressions using a single model.
> Isn't it possible that along with having a biological/genetic predisposition, there are actual things in our lives that are causing us to be more depressed than the average person. I mean, life in and of itself can be pretty depressing, IMO.
Don't you find dissonance in believing these things and yet finding it necessary to pursue biological therapies to achieve success? I do not subscribe to the notion that all depressions are driven by a psychosocial pathology, without which a depression could not exist. In other words, why can't everyone simply get their sh*t together and watch their depressions disappear? Is it that everyone who is depressed is characterologically incapable of getting their sh*t together? How is it that two weeks of Prozac treatment can transform a life after two decades of failed psychotherapy? It has happened often enough not to take notice and deduce the obvious. For some people, a green and white pill is enough.
> What about taking supplements, exercising, therapy and a proper diet as adjuncts to antidepressant treatments? Have you tried any of these for a long enough period of time to see if they will work? Do you take fish oil? Have you tried Rhodiola? You can take both of these with your antidepressants without any issues.
Your suggestions for me are good ones and greatly appreciated. With the exception of Rhodiola, I have tried them all. I even allowed myself to be treated by Stuart M. Berger in the 1980s with his food allergy theories and rotation diets.
My perspective is drawn to a great degree from experiencing ultra-rapid cyclicity for a few years. My cycle comprised an 11 day period with 8 days of depression followed by 3 days of euthymia. This pattern did not deviate by so much as a day in 3 years. Switching from one pole to the other took 30-45 minutes. It was quite dramatic and thoroughly fascinating. I would have made a good example for Ronald R. Fieve's book, "Moodswing". When the folks at Columbia gave me lithium, the cycling ceased. Perhaps I should have tried Fieve's rubidium.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 20:46:48
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 22, 2010, at 20:12:01
Hey Scott,
The first part of that post was meant for you, the second was meant for the OP. Sorry for not making myself more clear.
>Don't you find dissonance in believing these things and yet finding it necessary to pursue biological therapies to achieve success?
I really don't. I see pursuing biological therapies as just part of the overall solution. I think my and many others' issues with bipolar and depression are both rooted in biology and childhood environment/development and life experiences. We've had a similar discussion about this before.
>In other words, why can't everyone simply get their sh*t together and watch their depressions disappear? Is it that everyone who is depressed is characterologically incapable of getting their sh*t together?
I'm not necessarily saying this. Although, I have to admit, since forcing myself to work despite feeling worse than I've ever felt, things have seemed to improve some. Also, I am speaking more of people finding a way to love themselves more, maintain and create positive relationships, the pursuit of things that one is passionate about, etc. And like I said, life is pretty damn depressing if you ask me. Maybe many of us very sensitive people are more prone to depression as we find it hard to protect ourselves from the ugly sides of life.
I think the causes of depression and the development of it are extremely complex and multifactorial, leaving me to believe that many different approaches/therapies/treatments are necessary in the fight to relieve and hopefully eliminate major depression. Some of these treatments/therapies may take a very long time and require much hard work to ever be successful.
>How is it that two weeks of Prozac treatment can transform a life after two decades of failed psychotherapy? It has happened often enough not to take notice and deduce the obvious. For some people, a green and white pill is enough.
I agree with you to a certain extend. Though I think for a large number of people out there that experience this kind of remission with antidepressants, there are still underlying psychological issues that simply need to be addressed. Unfortunately, sometimes many people feel so good that they end up believing that they do not have any issues and in the long run relationships and other aspects of their life may suffer. Denial is the single greatest and most powerful coping mechanism we have in our arsenal. It helps to shield us from the pain and sadness deep seated in our psyche, and, prevents us from doing anything about it.
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 20:51:21
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 22, 2010, at 20:12:01
I wish you the very best Scott. You are obviously an extremely bright person with so much potential. I hope that one day you beat this crippling disease so you can live out the rest of your life as fully as possible.
I have too been feeling like I may never truly be happy again. If it was not for all the damage, I may not be feeling this way. I really have a problem with the fact that I am getting older and have not taken good care of myself. This seems to be one of several reasons for my sadness.
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 22, 2010, at 21:12:07
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 20:51:21
Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requestiong that you watch the following video.
After you see the video, note that I have a different view concerning depresssion.
Lou
You can see the video by:
A. bring up google
B. type in:
Why Antidepressants Don't Work For Treating Depression
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 22, 2010, at 21:34:12
In reply to Lou's request-mkhamn, posted by Lou Pilder on April 22, 2010, at 21:12:07
> Friends,
> If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requestiong that you watch the following video.
> After you see the video, note that I have a different view concerning depresssion.
> Lou
> You can see the video by:
> A. bring up google
> B. type in:
> Why Antidepressants Don't Work For Treating Depression
>
Correction....when typing in, put in youtube:
youtube, Why Antidepressants don't work For Treating Depression
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 23:23:05
In reply to Correction- Lou's request-mkhamn, posted by Lou Pilder on April 22, 2010, at 21:34:12
Lou, come on man, I'm a skeptic as well, but seriously, do you really believe this? Antidepressants do work for many.
I would like to see these studies on in the long term. Maybe a sugar pill works in the short term but would it be able to hold up in the long run.
Really, this is absurd IMO.
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 23:28:49
In reply to Correction- Lou's request-mkhamn, posted by Lou Pilder on April 22, 2010, at 21:34:12
What I want to know is why is that it seems both doctors and the general public do not want to talk about and face the reality that what happened in our childhood while we were developing contributes largely to issues with depression and anxiety. I can come up with some ideas as to why but I would like to hear what others think. Sorry to the OP for getting off topic.
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 23, 2010, at 5:21:05
In reply to Re: Correction- Lou's request-mkhamn, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 23:23:05
> Lou, come on man, I'm a skeptic as well, but seriously, do you really believe this? Antidepressants do work for many.
>
> I would like to see these studies on in the long term. Maybe a sugar pill works in the short term but would it be able to hold up in the long run.
>
> Really, this is absurd IMO. Here is a video of what is generally accepted as to what a drug could be doing in relation to the neurons and the effects to the person taking the drug. The drug used in this example is methamphetamine.
But do other drugs then have the same potential in the long term to cause brain damage?
Here is the link.
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
>
> morganator,
You wrote,[...I would like to see...]
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 23, 2010, at 5:42:30
In reply to Lou's reply-urdrgmehybeyurprolm » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on April 23, 2010, at 5:21:05
> > Lou, come on man, I'm a skeptic as well, but seriously, do you really believe this? Antidepressants do work for many.
> >
> > I would like to see these studies on in the long term. Maybe a sugar pill works in the short term but would it be able to hold up in the long run.
> >
> > Really, this is absurd IMO. Here is a video of what is generally accepted as to what a drug could be doing in relation to the neurons and the effects to the person taking the drug. The drug used in this example is methamphetamine.
> But do other drugs then have the same potential in the long term to cause brain damage?
> Here is the link.
> Lou
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
> >
> > morganator,
> You wrote,[...I would like to see...]
> Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant here in this thread, here are two videos that i think could help in being able to be better able to participate in this discussion.
Lou
http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=vNvQr9Ah28
in this one;
A. bring up google
B key in
youtube,Dangers of Antidepressants Suppressed (Fox News)
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 23, 2010, at 7:49:54
In reply to Lou's reply-thefaxpseekfrthmselvs, posted by Lou Pilder on April 23, 2010, at 5:42:30
> > > Lou, come on man, I'm a skeptic as well, but seriously, do you really believe this? Antidepressants do work for many.
> > >
> > > I would like to see these studies on in the long term. Maybe a sugar pill works in the short term but would it be able to hold up in the long run.
> > >
> > > Really, this is absurd IMO. Here is a video of what is generally accepted as to what a drug could be doing in relation to the neurons and the effects to the person taking the drug. The drug used in this example is methamphetamine.
> > But do other drugs then have the same potential in the long term to cause brain damage?
> > Here is the link.
> > Lou
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
> > >
> > > morganator,
> > You wrote,[...I would like to see...]
> > Friends,
> If you are considering being a discussant here in this thread, here are two videos that i think could help in being able to be better able to participate in this discussion.
> Lou
> http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=vNvQr9Ah28
> in this one;
> A. bring up google
> B key in
> youtube,Dangers of Antidepressants Suppressed (Fox News)
> >
> > Corrected link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNvQr9Ah28
>
>
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 9:00:46
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 20:46:48
> Also, I am speaking more of people finding a way to love themselves more, maintain and create positive relationships, the pursuit of things that one is passionate about, etc.
So, are you saying that every person who reports depression lacks these qualities and fails to experience these things?
You describe the evolution of major depression as being multifactorial. Do you believe that there are interindividual differences in the construction of depression, or is depression the result of an unvarying recipe of contributing components?
> And like I said, life is pretty damn depressing if you ask me.
I don't find life to be depressing.
> Maybe many of us very sensitive people are more prone to depression as we find it hard to protect ourselves from the ugly sides of life.
No doubt. However, I venture to guess that there are people who find it hard to protect themselves from such ugliness who never experience major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder. What would render one incapable of this protection? Would depressive biology be a necessary element? Is it possible to be depressed without having having a biological vulnerability? Is it possible to be depressed without having a psychological vulnerability?
> >How is it that two weeks of Prozac treatment can transform a life after two decades of failed psychotherapy?
> ...I think for a large number of people out there that experience this kind of remission with antidepressants, there are still underlying psychological issues that simply need to be addressed.What makes you say this?
> Unfortunately, sometimes many people feel so good that they end up believing that they do not have any issues and in the long run relationships and other aspects of their life may suffer.
So, again, you believe that all people who have an affective disorder are, and have been, a psychological mess?
> Denial is the single greatest and most powerful coping mechanism we have in our arsenal.
Could you be denying that you walk among people with affective disorders who are not like you?
> It helps to shield us from the pain and sadness deep seated in our psyche, and, prevents us from doing anything about it.
"Us"? Did you mean "you"?
I believe that some people who have unhealthy brains have healthy minds just waiting for a biological opportunity to flourish. Remember, some people with depression spend years in psychotherapy before they encounter a successful somatic treatment. I find it hard to believe that none of these peole have ever successfully addressed their "issues" prior to their biologically-induced remission.
As an aside, I find the overuse of the word "issues" to be very unpalatable. Why must we all have them? We don't. Or perhaps I am in denial.
:-)
A sizeable percentage of women suffer depression invariably premenstrually. I guess they all must have issues?
You don't know me and I don't know you. I think we should entertain the possibility that there be a spectrum of constructions of depression such that we not lump us all into one basket. How damaging it must be for people to be told they have issues to work on when they really don't.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2010, at 11:36:05
In reply to Re: Correction- Lou's request-mkhamn, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 23:23:05
> Really, this is absurd IMO.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2010, at 11:36:43
In reply to Re: Correction- Lou's request-mkhamn, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 23:28:49
> What I want to know is why is that it seems both doctors and the general public do not want to talk about and face the reality that what happened in our childhood while we were developing contributes largely to issues with depression and anxiety. I can come up with some ideas as to why but I would like to hear what others think. Sorry to the OP for getting off topic.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding what happened in our childhood to Psycho-Babble Psychology. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20100405/msgs/944698.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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