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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2009, at 20:52:29
For those of you who haven't read this...it's brief.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/science/17depress.html?hpw
Posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 21:54:56
In reply to NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2009, at 20:52:29
I've kind of always felt that what one experiences in life is what causes depression/anxiety and medical conditions. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 4:50:52
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 21:54:56
"One of the most celebrated findings in modern psychiatry that a SINGLE gene helps determine ones risk of depression in response to a divorce, a lost job or another serious reversal has not held up to scientific scrutiny, researchers reported Tuesday."
>>>>>> SINGLE <<<<<<<
The article is correct. It has not been proven that a single gene alone is responsible for depression.
Major Depressive Disorder and Bipolar Disorder seem to be genetic, but are multi-gene disorders in that the expressed phenotype requires that more than one gene be involved it its presentation.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on June 18, 2009, at 16:01:29
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted » Phillipa, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 4:50:52
I wonder if the findings that SS varients of the serotonin transporter have poorer responces to SSRI's still holds?
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 16:12:29
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by linkadge on June 18, 2009, at 16:01:29
> I wonder if the findings that SS varients of the serotonin transporter have poorer responces to SSRI's still holds?
Good question.
My first reaction would be to say that it probably does still hold. Although it might take 3 genes to produce the depression, it may only take 1 gene to prevent a certain drug mechanism to be rendered ineffective.
Just a guess.
- Scott
Posted by morganpmiller on June 22, 2009, at 23:55:46
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 16:12:29
I believe that almost every mental disorder, even schizophrenia, arises out of the bio-psycho-social dynamic. There is no gene that causes depression. People want to believe that because they don't want to face the ugly truth about why their depression as grown into the monster it is.
I agree with Phillipa...plus a biological predisposition that results in more difficult to treat, more severe cases.
Posted by linkadge on June 23, 2009, at 7:43:51
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by morganpmiller on June 22, 2009, at 23:55:46
>I believe that almost every mental disorder, >even schizophrenia, arises out of the bio-psycho->social dynamic. There is no gene that causes >depression. People want to believe that because >they don't want to face the ugly truth about why >their depression as grown into the monster it >is.
There are times that I believe this and times that I don't. I have seen severe depression exist in the complete absence of any identifyable precipitating factors. Sometimes I am most depressed in the summer, when my psychosocial stressors are lowest. The depression and mania of advanced bipolar disorder is also often out of whack with any identifyable factors. My mother had a psychotic episode out of the blue, and then is perfectly normal when the resession hits and her parents die.
I agree that people want to blame it all on their genes, and for most people, common depression is precipitated by stressful life events. But, I do believe there are likely some mental illnesses which are due to certain genes (like huntingtons disease) where the patient will likely get worse without treatment whether or not life is good.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on June 23, 2009, at 18:09:35
In reply to NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2009, at 20:52:29
I can't help but laugh at the stupidity and arrogance of academia when they attempt to nail down a cause for depression.
Depression has existed since the beginning of time and has more causes than we can count. Some are psychological, some are biological, and most are probably both feeding on each other in a viscious circle. The subset population that is pbabble I believe is mostly biological. But even if we narrow it down to just that, the biological causes of depression are many.
There are dozens of genes that could be involved, ranging everywhere from things like B vitamins, methylation, detoxification, enzymes that limit how much protein gets turned into neurotransmitters, which neurotransmitters, genes involved with sunlight and daily rythym, thyroid functioning, adrenal gland functioning, insults from a tumor somewhere in the body, on and on. Lead, mercury, alumiminum, heavy metal accumulation in the brain receptors. An organism disrupting the normal function of enzymes and neurotransmitter, ala Babesiosis, Erlichiosis, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, STARI, Tularemia (the previous are Lyme co-infectiosn), Borreliosis (Lyme), Clamydia, Epstein Bar Virus, parasites, Candida, on and on. Deficient blood flow to the brain. Inflammation of the brain. I mean, there is lots that can go wrong, but the end result is the same...the person is depressed when the brain cannot function properly. There are so many things that can impact the brain from somewhere else in the body.
For academia scientists to try to pinpoint some specific gene involved in depression has got to be a joke. I mean, these people get paid how much money to think up such stupid things instead of researching real stuff?
For example, why don't they come up with a quick way to check brain blood flow and inflammation. How about identifying the biotoxins secreted by organisms such as Lyme and Candida and develop a medicine that neutralizes those chemicals. Just for starters. Get that done and there is lots more. But to look for a specific gene? Sigh.
Posted by morganpmiller on June 23, 2009, at 21:52:11
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by linkadge on June 23, 2009, at 7:43:51
I hear what your saying linkage. I do think that just because something is not identifiable, this does not mean there is not something going on that is triggering the depression. It is hard for us to accept that there are factors in play that simply are not tangible. I am a huge believer in the complexity of the human psyche. That is why I do not think there has to be any identifiable stressful event or circumstance to be taking place for someone to suffer from depression. What I am saying is that a damaged psyche will eventually break down on some level regardless of whether or not there is an obvious trigger. The subconscious is a powerful thing. Things that affected us when we were at those crucial ages of development of 2 or 3 or 4 could have wired us in a way and still are affecting us now. These things can be dealt with but it is not easy. And most would rather stay in denial and just find an answer through medication. I don't blame them really. I am guilty of this as well. I am not sure I am articulating my thoughts very well right now.
Basically, there does not need to be an identifiable trigger. If you are predisposed to depression and you have anything going on in your subconscious/psyche that has not been dealt with, it is likely that at any time the sadness that lurks deep within will creep up and get those that are most vulnerable to it.
I have a few friends that have never been on medication before. They are not as much the sensitive artistic types. They have issues and I know all about them. They have their own sadness and anger and anxiety at times. They have things deep down that gets the best of them at times. The difference between them and us is that they just are not as susceptible to being brought down for very long or having their brain chemistry thrown off too much in any way. They use denial to protect them like we all do. They keep going and try to stay distracted like we all do. They just are not predisposed to getting thrown off the tracks like we are. And if they do fall off the tracks, they always have a rescue system waiting around to put them back on so they can keep moving. Also, things like alcohol do not throw their chemistry off quite as easily. I will say, they also had parents that stuck together. And they have a fairly strong family structure, not much disfunction. Their families were far from perfect, but it really shows that their families were more stable than others. Like I said, they still have baggage, they are able to escape much but not all of the damage done by carrying it around; partially because the baggage is not as heavy, and partially because they are better equipped to deal with it.
Depression and anxiety are very complicated.
I wonder what Dr. Bob thinks about all this?
I also agree with bleauberry that there are other reasons for severe issues with depression like lyme disease and other neurotoxins.
Depression is a part of life. A necessary one, if that makes any sense. Unfortunately, we really suffer from it, unlike others who experience it like they experience rainy days.
> >I believe that almost every mental disorder, >even schizophrenia, arises out of the bio-psycho->social dynamic. There is no gene that causes >depression. People want to believe that because >they don't want to face the ugly truth about why >their depression as grown into the monster it >is.
>
> There are times that I believe this and times that I don't. I have seen severe depression exist in the complete absence of any identifyable precipitating factors. Sometimes I am most depressed in the summer, when my psychosocial stressors are lowest. The depression and mania of advanced bipolar disorder is also often out of whack with any identifyable factors. My mother had a psychotic episode out of the blue, and then is perfectly normal when the resession hits and her parents die.
>
> I agree that people want to blame it all on their genes, and for most people, common depression is precipitated by stressful life events. But, I do believe there are likely some mental illnesses which are due to certain genes (like huntingtons disease) where the patient will likely get worse without treatment whether or not life is good.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by sukarno on June 26, 2009, at 13:07:33
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by morganpmiller on June 23, 2009, at 21:52:11
All I can say is that, for myself, I never experienced panic attacks or anxiety until I was exposed to a stressor (i.e. taking on a job for the first time while in high school). I was diagnosed with panic disorder after that. Prior to the job I was just fine. No anxiety whatsoever. It was like day and night. Normal all the way up until that point in my life.
I then didn't experience depression or agoraphobia until after I got married 6 years later. The agoraphobia began within 2 weeks after the wedding. Depression set in during the fall and winter months and was severe. This was despite the fact that my marriage was happy and a very positive thing for me.
I very much believe that stressful live events can trigger/cause depression. There is evidence of stressful events (even positive life events can be perceived by the body as being stressful) lowering neuroplasticity in the hippocampus and causing the cascade of events that leads to anxiety and depression.
That's why I take Stablon. It is no miracle cure though. It seems like it is pooping out after being on it for 4 years. I have to taper down the dose for a while and then raise it again to get back the efficacy.
I'm thinking of trying an SSRI with low side effects and that is not related to Prozac (since I am allergic to Prozac - rash, itching, GI bleeding).
Posted by Sigismund on June 30, 2009, at 1:13:27
In reply to Re: NYT: Report on Gene for Depression Is Now Faulted, posted by linkadge on June 23, 2009, at 7:43:51
>and for most people, common depression is precipitated by stressful life events
For some people in some situations, stressful events help depression.
The stressful event (in the case of cancer) provides a focus, an excuse, and last but not least, morphine.
This is the end of the thread.
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