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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 16:06:59
So, I know the rules prohibit me to ask anyone about potential SOURCES of Ketamine, but as I am in the midst of the most treatment-resistant, suicidial, ECT-refractory depression of my life, I want to ask about Ketamine.
Has anyone here who has tried Ketamine experienced that storied "single dose and i'm well again" response Ketamine is known for?
And, in addition, pardon my ignorance, but how is Ketamine actually taken? Would I need to shoot it up IV? Or snort it? Or swallow it orally? Or sublingually? Any assistance you can provide will help me when I eventually DO get my hands on some "Special K".
Posted by sowhysosad on April 28, 2009, at 18:32:53
In reply to Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 16:06:59
I read some research about K's dramatic effect on depression a few months back and was intrigued myself.
Although I've taken pretty much every recreational drug around, Ketamine's not one I have any experience with. So I was worried some kind of "bad trip" experience - on top of the fractured sense of reality that comes with depression - could be extremely disturbing. That put me off!
Let us know if it works though!
I wouldn't go down the road of injecting it. Many people report instant "K-hole" and insanely unpleasant experiences.
Apparently most recreational users snort it in "bumps", each around the mass of a green pea. If you get it in a liquid form there are techniques to turn it into powder which you'll find with a little googling.
> So, I know the rules prohibit me to ask anyone about potential SOURCES of Ketamine, but as I am in the midst of the most treatment-resistant, suicidial, ECT-refractory depression of my life, I want to ask about Ketamine.
>
> Has anyone here who has tried Ketamine experienced that storied "single dose and i'm well again" response Ketamine is known for?
>
> And, in addition, pardon my ignorance, but how is Ketamine actually taken? Would I need to shoot it up IV? Or snort it? Or swallow it orally? Or sublingually? Any assistance you can provide will help me when I eventually DO get my hands on some "Special K".
Posted by yxibow on April 28, 2009, at 18:44:33
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » uncouth, posted by sowhysosad on April 28, 2009, at 18:32:53
All I say is be careful what you wish for -- there may be studies about depression, I havent really heard of them, but it is a powerful dissociative. It's a horse tranquilizer and used rarely in pediatric anesthesia.
I'm sure you know this already, but as a dissociative it joins (not chemically but classwise) the list of things including dextromethorphan and PCP.
It is entirely possible with such a compound to get to a point that you don't even remember your own name. This is also known as a serious "k hole" as mentioned. And I've seen someone with the results of it, its not a great place.
Personally, having experienced some dissociative like episodes in my illness I wouldn't go near such a substance. But, buyer beware I guess. No comment on legality.
-- Jay
Posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 19:42:36
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » sowhysosad, posted by yxibow on April 28, 2009, at 18:44:33
Ok, then if the guidance is to stay away from Ketamine as a risky compound for killing this depression, what about ultra-high-dose Memantine? Anyone know if that's worth trying, or if the pharmacokinetics even make such an attempt workable? I'm currently at 40mg and honestly I can't really tell what affect if anything it is having, I take 20mg 2x a day, but have only been on it for a month as I was able to convince my pdoc to Rx me Namenda to help with ECT cognitive side effects.
SO if anyone knows anything about high dose memantine....please do share!
Posted by sowhysosad on April 28, 2009, at 19:52:52
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » sowhysosad, posted by yxibow on April 28, 2009, at 18:44:33
Yeah, it sounds ****ing horrible.
If at all, I think snorting very small bumps at a time and appraising the effects would be the best way to do it.
Doing it IV often results in instant K-hole apparently.
> It is entirely possible with such a compound to get to a point that you don't even remember your own name. This is also known as a serious "k hole" as mentioned. And I've seen someone with the results of it, its not a great place.
Posted by sowhysosad on April 28, 2009, at 19:58:19
In reply to Ketamine - OR - what about high dose Memantine?, posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 19:42:36
Apparently the study that was carried out used only very small doses of ketamine and had a 70% success rate, so it might still be worth giving it a go if you're very careful with dosing.
> Ok, then if the guidance is to stay away from Ketamine as a risky compound for killing this depression, what about ultra-high-dose Memantine? Anyone know if that's worth trying, or if the pharmacokinetics even make such an attempt workable? I'm currently at 40mg and honestly I can't really tell what affect if anything it is having, I take 20mg 2x a day, but have only been on it for a month as I was able to convince my pdoc to Rx me Namenda to help with ECT cognitive side effects.
>
> SO if anyone knows anything about high dose memantine....please do share!
Posted by yxibow on April 28, 2009, at 21:41:18
In reply to Ketamine - OR - what about high dose Memantine?, posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 19:42:36
> Ok, then if the guidance is to stay away from Ketamine as a risky compound for killing this depression, what about ultra-high-dose Memantine? Anyone know if that's worth trying, or if the pharmacokinetics even make such an attempt workable? I'm currently at 40mg and honestly I can't really tell what affect if anything it is having, I take 20mg 2x a day, but have only been on it for a month as I was able to convince my pdoc to Rx me Namenda to help with ECT cognitive side effects.
>
> SO if anyone knows anything about high dose memantine....please do share!
I would say its an entirely personal experience. Namenda is not an innocuous medication (neither is Deplin which I forget what also it did to me at the moment). I too tried it for cognitive issues, related to the dose of Valium that I have catch-22 issues but still need to take at the moment.When I got to 20mg, my complex somatoform / anxiety / etc disorder got to the intensely unpleasant experience.
As soon as it was dropped, within a matter of a week or less symptoms were down again. I was disappointed but it wasn't worth continuing to find out with that sort of result that caused a large spike in anxiety.
But as they say, each to their own. Maybe it will help you. As for side effects outside of magnifying my illness, or benefits, there weren't any. 40mg sounds a bit excessive, but I know that I am a fast metabolizer of some things.
-- Jay
Posted by Phil on April 29, 2009, at 10:01:44
In reply to Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 16:06:59
This is a great website and should shed some light on your question.
Posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 14:52:31
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » uncouth, posted by Phil on April 29, 2009, at 10:01:44
I have procured ketamine, in what looks to be powdered/granular form (e.g., small crystals, the size of raw sugar).
If anyone knows the best way to take this, please post or babblemail me. This would be for its antidepressant properties, not recreationally! I do not intend on injecting it, so somehow or another, orally or nasally, some help is requested.
I hope i'm not infringing on any PB rules with this request. I am dealing with a suicidally-deep depression and trying everything I can.
Posted by desolationrower on May 13, 2009, at 15:42:45
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 14:52:31
might be more people with experience on bluelight.ru forum
-d/r
Posted by sowhysosad on May 13, 2009, at 17:24:04
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by desolationrower on May 13, 2009, at 15:42:45
> might be more people with experience on bluelight.ru forum
>
> -d/rYeah, I found some excellent info on there when uncouth first suggested ketamine.
Posted by shasling on May 13, 2009, at 17:47:01
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 14:52:31
Have you had any success with the Ketamine?
Posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 17:52:37
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by shasling on May 13, 2009, at 17:47:01
just took about 100mg orally (solution in water). visual field was distorted a bit (shaking), felt "something" but also felt the depression lift for about 30 minutes. it wasn't a "high" or a disassociative experience by any means, and it didn't last, but i'll try again at a higher dose and at a different method of ingestion.
the research studies that used IV ketamine said that the effects from a single dose lasted days...thats my target. what an ideal situation if i could just ingest some ketamine once a week, be high for an hour, but have the mood effects last the whole week? i can dream....
Posted by SLS on May 13, 2009, at 19:43:39
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 17:52:37
I recently came across a paper on Pubmed suggesting the use of memantine immediately after ketamine to promote a continued antidepressant effect. I don't know the results of the investigation as no abstract had been submitted:
1: Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 2008 Feb;42(2):170.Ketamine followed by memantine for the treatment of major depression.
- Scott> just took about 100mg orally (solution in water). visual field was distorted a bit (shaking), felt "something" but also felt the depression lift for about 30 minutes. it wasn't a "high" or a disassociative experience by any means, and it didn't last, but i'll try again at a higher dose and at a different method of ingestion.
>
> the research studies that used IV ketamine said that the effects from a single dose lasted days...thats my target. what an ideal situation if i could just ingest some ketamine once a week, be high for an hour, but have the mood effects last the whole week? i can dream....
>
Posted by Meltingpot on May 14, 2009, at 11:06:30
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 14:52:31
I thought you were supposed to inject it for depression? Can't you get on one of the trials where they will inject you with it?
Denise
Posted by uncouth on May 14, 2009, at 11:25:55
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by Meltingpot on May 14, 2009, at 11:06:30
i think as long as enough of it gets in you no matter how you do it, it will be effective. just means different doses are required given different bioavailability of the intake methods. i can't get in on any studies as i'm not located anywhere nearby! so i have to do this myself, as much as i hate using myself as a guinea pig, i am DESPERATE.
Posted by Questionmark on May 17, 2009, at 5:20:55
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2009, at 17:52:37
www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_info6.shtml
According to that page on [the site] erowid, the ketamine/depression study used IV ketamine doses of 0.5 mg per kg of body weight (e.g. 35 mg for a 70 kg/154 lb person). There may be an ideal dosage (or blood concentration) and/or duration-of-action window for this therapeutic effect to be most possible, and who knows how narrow that window may be exactly?.
So my layman's suggestion would be that it might be best to try it intranasally. (Injecting anything seems too risky for me to recommend such an undertaking to anyone, unless they had proper training/knowledge.) This route (just in case you don't know) would result in much quicker delivery to the bloodstream, higher peak blood concentration [per same dose], and shorter duration of action, than oral ingestion (though not quite as much as injecting but hopefully close enough i would assume). In other words, it would be closer to the study's dosing (and blood concentration, etc.) -- which in turn would be more likely to be in that therapeutic window. That is unless the study designers were not near the center of that window, but i would guess that they had good reasons for coming up with the dose that they used.
Also, as you probably know, if you do try it intranasally, i would reduce your dose significantly (unless you weigh much much more than i do, which besides not saying much is of course fine). Basically i would calculate what 0.5mg per kg of your body weight would be, and then maybe add a few milligrams or so on top of that (the latter just in order to be more likely to achieve peak brain concentrations that would be similar to injecting 0.5mg/kg body weight).
My opinion is that the oral route might just be too different (or i.e. too outside that "window" potentially) to get the desired or at least ideal neurophysiological, and hence antidepressant, effects.
Oh I would also suggest, ideally at least, not trying this experiment more than once in a short period of time (at least 24 hrs to 1 week maybe?), since this may alter brain chemistry or receptor , uh, physiology(?) in a way that is less effective for the antidepressant response.Remember people, using ketamine is not effective in this way (effecting an antidepressant response) in just any amounts and frequencies of use. Otherwise i would assume that we would be hearing a lot more about depressive ketamine users finding relief from depression. And I have no knowledge on it, but i don't see ketamine users as being generally happy-go-lucky or what have you. Anyway essentially i'm just further supporting this ideal therapeutic dosage window theme, and, in particular, that use that is too high-dose or frequent probably is counterproductive for this goal. Obviously. I'm just reminding i guess. But yeah especially important to remember is that the dose used in the study is significantly lower than the typical recreational doses used. Ah sorry if i'm rambling now.
Uncouth... Good luck! And please let us know how it turns out.
> just took about 100mg orally (solution in water). visual field was distorted a bit (shaking), felt "something" but also felt the depression lift for about 30 minutes. it wasn't a "high" or a disassociative experience by any means, and it didn't last, but i'll try again at a higher dose and at a different method of ingestion.
>
> the research studies that used IV ketamine said that the effects from a single dose lasted days...thats my target. what an ideal situation if i could just ingest some ketamine once a week, be high for an hour, but have the mood effects last the whole week? i can dream....
>
Posted by Meltingpot on May 17, 2009, at 7:27:36
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on May 14, 2009, at 11:25:55
Hi
I can understand totally your desperation.
A year or so ago, I contacted one of the co-ordinators of the Ketamine Rilazole trials in the States. She was willing to consider me for the trial, even though I live in the UK. It just would have meant I had to stay in the hospital during the trial. Can't you do the same?
I'm not suggesting you did the Ketamine and Rilazole trial because it involves coming off all your medication (I couldn't do that) but I think the trial where they just inject you with ketamine doesn't involve you coming off your current meds.
However, I guess you want to try it as quickly as possible without having to go through the processs of getting on trials. I hope it helps you.
Denise
Posted by West on May 23, 2009, at 15:26:47
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine - Uncouth, posted by Meltingpot on May 17, 2009, at 7:27:36
I'm fanatically in support of this drug in the short term. It works QUICKLY and is an extremely effective depression suppressor i.e prevents ligamenture and cell death caused by depression and chronic stress.
Without speculating too much into its role as a tool for psychological discovery, it can in my experience bring back deeply stored feelings and memories otherwise inaccessible in the depressed mind, leaving you with a sense of being 'recharged.'
Watch out for tolerance. It is the only addictive drug of it's type too, indicating some potential dopamine release.
Posted by desolationrower on May 24, 2009, at 20:55:19
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine - Uncouth, posted by West on May 23, 2009, at 15:26:47
> I'm fanatically in support of this drug in the short term. It works QUICKLY and is an extremely effective depression suppressor i.e prevents ligamenture and cell death caused by depression and chronic stress.
>
> Without speculating too much into its role as a tool for psychological discovery, it can in my experience bring back deeply stored feelings and memories otherwise inaccessible in the depressed mind, leaving you with a sense of being 'recharged.'
>
> Watch out for tolerance. It is the only addictive drug of it's type too, indicating some potential dopamine release.theres some similarity to pcp, which is significantly more addictive
-d.r
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on June 4, 2009, at 0:18:28
In reply to Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on April 28, 2009, at 16:06:59
Hey, if you're still around, there's studies right now being conducted about Ketamine. Drug companies are trying to come up with an oral version of Ketamine.
If you have treatment-resistant depression, you may qualify for one of these studies and could get the drug this way. I might be taking part in a study of this drug if I qualify.
Best of luck
Posted by uncouth on June 4, 2009, at 8:31:02
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » uncouth, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on June 4, 2009, at 0:18:28
do you have a pointer to one of these studies?
i just did another round of ketamine, once a day for about 5 days. tolerance built quickly, but my doses were relatively small and most importantly IT WORKED...at least temporarily.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on June 4, 2009, at 10:38:25
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine, posted by uncouth on June 4, 2009, at 8:31:02
The one I'm doing is in NYC. Are you in this area? I could give you the info if you're interested.
Posted by rollingthunder on June 4, 2009, at 16:28:02
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » uncouth, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on June 4, 2009, at 10:38:25
Keep up the posts about these unusual meds. They're interesting.
Talking about the usual I5 meds again and again is sometimes soporific.
Posted by uncouth on June 4, 2009, at 16:38:43
In reply to Re: Ketamine Ketamine Ketamine » uncouth, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on June 4, 2009, at 10:38:25
I am in California, know of any studies nearby me?
I'd rather not self-treat myself with orally dosed ketamine if there are clinical studies around that can be more precise/professional.
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