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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Babak on September 30, 2008, at 10:35:56
Hi everyone,
I am a TRD with coming up to 29 years of history.
Venelafaxine, Olanzapine and VNS have all been partially useful but not to the extent to render me functional (forget about not feeling depressed).
I am getting progressively serious about trying Ketamine. However despite reading quite a few articles and postings about this drug, I remain unclear about two points:
1) Are hallucinatory effects dose related?
2) Is there a danger of Serotonin Syndrome in its concomitant use with SSRI(s) and/or SNRI(s)?
Could people refer me to credible articles engaging the above two points please.
Your own comments and experiences will also be appreciated.
Posted by yxibow on October 1, 2008, at 0:26:14
In reply to SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Babak on September 30, 2008, at 10:35:56
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am a TRD with coming up to 29 years of history.
> Venelafaxine, Olanzapine and VNS have all been partially useful but not to the extent to render me functional (forget about not feeling depressed).
> I am getting progressively serious about trying Ketamine. However despite reading quite a few articles and postings about this drug, I remain unclear about two points:
> 1) Are hallucinatory effects dose related?
> 2) Is there a danger of Serotonin Syndrome in its concomitant use with SSRI(s) and/or SNRI(s)?
> Could people refer me to credible articles engaging the above two points please.
> Your own comments and experiences will also be appreciated.
>I'm not quite sure why you're asking for the opinion of a street drug. Ketamine is a strong horse tranquilizer and a pediatric anaesthetic.
It is a hard drug and can produce dissociative effects and in strong enough doses hospitalization from "K-holes", yes, strong hallucination and beliefs that you aren't even human.
Yes, there is research into depression and other disorders, but this is something that if it is even available, you would enroll in.
I'm not a teetotaler, but there are some agents that are dangerous without proper dosing by research physicians.
As for combinations with SSRIs, probably not, I'm not sure, but I think I'll just conclude this.
I'm sure there are people who will have different beliefs and cite its effects for depression, but as I say, this is ongoing research.
Please be careful, I can't say anything more.
-- tidings
Posted by Babak on October 1, 2008, at 6:31:42
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine » Babak, posted by yxibow on October 1, 2008, at 0:26:14
Thanks for your concern. I don't know your history but I am sure if it is anything linke mine you would also consider trying Ketamine especially reading the research on the drug. They say that a single use can reset your brain.
I don't intend to take the drug on daily basis. Furthermore I am trying to calculate my risk, hence the questions.
Besides if hundreds and hundreds of people are using the drug, it cann't be that dangerous as long as you don't abuse it.
Posted by Extreme on October 1, 2008, at 18:14:10
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Babak on October 1, 2008, at 6:31:42
Well...
I tried it on several occasions (probably 6-8 times). Powder-form... up the nose. Yes, it was ketamine indeed... I knew where it came from. I remember that I would have to be on benso before taking it cause it made my head spin so much I got really sea-sick. The effects was quite close to nitrous oxide... a prolonged and enhanced nitrous oxide effect with some strong sedating after-effects. But I must say that except for the effect "in the moment of taking it" there was really nothing special about it.
Just sharing my experience. I did read about that it could have an effect on depression and of course my few experiences with it should not be confused with a controlled attempt to help depression or something like that. Of course there is always risks in taking stuff that affects the mind and body at this high level. And it should be avoided at all times taking something that is not supported in a legal way or without the overlook of some medical trained people.
Posted by Babak on October 1, 2008, at 18:55:03
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Extreme on October 1, 2008, at 18:14:10
Ok,
I don't know what nitrous oxid feels like. So would you be kind enough to tell me:
1) How big of a line was it? 0.1 gram or there about. I assume you bought 1 gram powder.
2) Are/were you at the time on an SSRI type (Which one and what dosage?)?.
3) Do/did you suffer from depression at the time?
4) What does nitrous oxide feel like?
5) Did you hallucinate?Thank you in advance for your help.
Posted by desolationrower on October 1, 2008, at 19:29:43
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Babak on October 1, 2008, at 18:55:03
You could probably get a similar effect using dextromethorphan, without the legal risks. However no studies showing it works. Of course, you can't take that with an ssri (i think it causes serotonin release. i know you can take it with an maoi, probably shouldn't with an ssri)
also, i think either an alpha2 agonist or a benzo is used to prevent (theoretical, unproven) toxicity. might be improtant if it works. i'd think you'd need to take it once a week or so to remain in remission. i don't know of a serotonin syndrome risk, although 5ht2 blockers, used to prevent it, could potentially worsen neurotoxcicity from nmda blockade. but thats all really theoretical. actually memantine which is an nmda blcoker amoung other things prevents serotonin syndrome, and i think it is mostly likely mediated by nmda.
this might be of interest as well
SEROTONERGIC/GLUTAMATERGIC INTERACTIONS: POTENTIATION OF PHENCYCLIDINE-INDUCED STIMULUS CONTROL BY CITALOPRAM
free fulltext:http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1224745
Fluoxetine prevents PCP- and MK801-induced HSP70 expression in injured limbic cortical neurons of rats.
Biol Psychiatry. 2000 May 1;47(9):836-41.
"BACKGROUND: N-Methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonists, including phencyclidine (PCP) and dizocilpine (MK801), cause schizophrenialike psychosis in humans, and produce vacuolated neurons in the cingulate and retrosplenial cortices of the rat brain. Since psychotically depressed patients and schizophrenic depressed patients may require treatment with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), it is of interest to examine the relationship between SSRIs and NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity. METHODS: The neurotoxicity of PCP and MK801 was assessed using heat shock protein (HSP70) immunocytochemistry and HSP70 Western blots because HSP70 is expressed in the injured, vacuolated neurons. Female rats were given fluoxetine (0, 5, 10, and 20 mg/kg IP) followed 1 hour later by MK801 (1 mg/kg IP) or PCP (50 mg/kg IP). RESULTS: Pretreatment with fluoxetine (20 mg/kg IP) 1 hour before MK801 prevented the induction of HSP70 by MK801 in the cingulate and retrosplenial cortices. Pretreatment with fluoxetine (10 or 20 mg/kg IP) 1 hour before PCP also prevented the HSP70 induction by PCP. CONCLUSIONS: Fluoxetine prevents the neurotoxicity of NMDA receptor antagonists in rat brain."i imagine you'll be tripping balls, as the recreational dose is subanaesthetic dose. i don't know how much was used in the study though. good luck.
-d/r
Posted by Sigismund on October 1, 2008, at 19:40:50
In reply to SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Babak on September 30, 2008, at 10:35:56
>Are hallucinatory effects dose related?
Yes
Posted by Sigismund on October 1, 2008, at 19:43:19
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Sigismund on October 1, 2008, at 19:40:50
Posted by Babak on October 1, 2008, at 23:53:44
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by desolationrower on October 1, 2008, at 19:29:43
Thanks for all your explanation. I can't say I understood much of it because it is far too technical for me. But basically you are not sure.
Is that right?
Posted by Babak on October 2, 2008, at 0:18:32
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Sigismund on October 1, 2008, at 19:43:19
Thanks for the link but I have read those messages. They were a bit out there. I need to find out if 0.1mg/kg-3mg/kg of Ketamine with 300mg of Venelafaxine will cause Serotonin Syndrome.
Where do I go to find that out?
Posted by Extreme on October 2, 2008, at 6:47:19
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Babak on October 1, 2008, at 18:55:03
Babak:
1) How big of a line was it? 0.1 gram or there about. I assume you bought 1 gram powder.
--------Something like that yes but I do remember taking several lines at a time. We had more than enough of this stuff.
2) Are/were you at the time on an SSRI type (Which one and what dosage?)?.
---------No. I am scared of them.
3) Do/did you suffer from depression at the time?
--------Yes. Noticed no improvement in condition. No mood-enhancing effects after.
4) What does nitrous oxide feel like?
---------Hard to describe. Its like disolving you into a kind of "void" which was very similiar to the after-effects of ketamine... no threatening void though.
5) Did you hallucinate?
------------Yes. Although there never was "outide hallucinations" like seeing stuff. They all occured "inside", inner visions. One of my friends had a strange experience of him being in Las Vegas at a casino... and I had a really strange incident of me being in a cave in a role of some schaman performing a ceremony... really weird.
Posted by Phil on October 3, 2008, at 21:35:03
In reply to SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine, posted by Babak on September 30, 2008, at 10:35:56
I found this site and it has a huge forum. You may find your answer there.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47063
Posted by desolationrower on October 4, 2008, at 16:14:06
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine » Babak, posted by Phil on October 3, 2008, at 21:35:03
> I found this site and it has a huge forum. You may find your answer there.
> http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47063thats a very helpful link. On the same note, bluelight.ru forums has some posters very knowledgeable about neuropsychopharmacology who i am sure have threads on ketamine and otehr dissociatives.
-d/r
Posted by Babak on October 5, 2008, at 17:29:39
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine » Phil, posted by desolationrower on October 4, 2008, at 16:14:06
Thanks but I have been banned from that forum.
Some of these forums take themselves too seriously.
Posted by Babak on October 5, 2008, at 17:31:48
In reply to Re: SSRI, Hallucination, Ketamine » Phil, posted by desolationrower on October 4, 2008, at 16:14:06
I could clear cookie and sign in under a different name but any club who doesn't want me it doesn't deserve to have me.
This is the end of the thread.
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