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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by calamityjane on September 26, 2008, at 15:17:40
Please help me answer this question. Dr Bob, if you are able to add your thoughts to this post I would be ever so grateful. Likewise, any input from anyone here on the boards is appreciated very much by me.
On Jan 1 1984 my dad began experiencing rectal pain
On Jan 3 1984 he went to see the doctor who suggested overnight observation, and that he return to his office the next day.
On Jan 4, 1984 the pain had increased. The doctor decided an exploratory surgery would be necessary to determine whether it was an abscess or hemrrhoids. He was given "general endotracheal anesthetic" in the "supine position" then rotated to jack knife position. Electrosurfical unit was used. [what is that? - anyone know?]
During the surgery abscess was ruled out, but the doctor found large hemorrhoids that needed to be surgically removed. Hemorrhoidectomy will "probably be necessary" he states. The doctor removes the hemorrhoids and prepares him for recovery room, leaving him there "in good condition".After the surgery (2nd postoperative day) my dad developed urinary retention, as well as a fever spike that quickly went up to 102 degrees. They examined the area and did not notice any abscess at that point.
The fever continued for another two days and thats when they discovered it had indeed abscessed. This was the fifth day, actually, post surgery.
From what I am told, my dad was terrified for that second surgery. TOtally different than the inital. SUpposedly he did not understand why he was going back in, or something like that.
My dad was never again the same person. He came out of that surgery in a daze, and he never snapped out of it. The best I can describe it is that he was in a state similar to that of a person posessed.
He did not recognize himself. In nurses's charts it is documented that he said "this is just not me. I am so confused. I do not understand. I was fine"
He killed himself. I want to know why. He was FINE before that surgery. Is it possible the anesthesia trigged something to create a deep depression? His first suicide attempt was just 2 months after that second surgery.
Why did this happen? Does anybody have any insight or input? Thanks so much.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2008, at 22:59:06
In reply to side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob?, posted by calamityjane on September 26, 2008, at 15:17:40
I am so very sorry for your loss, and moreover, your continued emotional discomfort from it. I don't know that anyone can answer with any certainty, but I hope you'll give me a chance to try.
Dr. Bof cannot answer medical questions here. There are legal reasons why not, and ethical reasons why not. I hope you can accept that you won't get a medical professional's response over the internet.
First, rather than electrosurfical, I suggest electrosurgical. Also known as cautery. Burning to caurterize, using electrical heat generated through resistance. Destroys tissue, and reduce bleeding to a minimum.
The temperature spike, confirmed by diagnosis of abscess, suggest serious infection. By the time it was identified, sepsis (systemic blood infection) may well have become established. If sepsis arises from abscess, the abscess must be excised, but also IV antibiotics are required.
Toxins are frequently released from systemic bacterial infections that can influence cognition and behaviour. He may have been septic before the second surgery, rather than being altered due to post-anaesthetic reactions. From your account, systemic infection may not have been addressed at any point in time, leaving him vulnerable to the bacterial toxins over an extended period.
Under the mistaken assumption that a localized abscess had been taken care of, the idea of systmeic infection may have been overlooked, leaving him vulnerable to increasing cognitive distortion, and other adverse effects.....culminating if the seeking of permanent relief from his distress.
Again, I must emphasize I am sorry for your loss, and how it has been on your mind for so long. I have speculated a possible scenario, which has no evidence in fact. It is merely consistent with the history you describe.
In summary, unrecognized systemic infection, or indiagnosed cancer (a variety are consistent with the symptoms, glandular and bowel forms) might better explain the series of his experiences. Given that this happened 24 years ago, medical standards of that era might have allowed these oversights, without any direct evidence of malpractise. Though that is also a possibility....abdominal pain has other causes than haemmorhoids, so their discovery should not have limited further inquiries. People with haemmorhoids can have cancer, after all.
Once again, I am sorry for your loss. I hope it helps to have some possible alternate explanations.....I don't think anaesthesia is to blame. Sometimes, things just don't go so well, despite statistics saying that they ought to.
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Lar
Posted by calamityjane on September 27, 2008, at 0:56:10
In reply to Re: side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob? » calamityjane, posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2008, at 22:59:06
Ohhhh you just do not have any idea at all how much it means to me to get even a likely theory as to what happened to him. For two years I have tried and tried to get these records from the hospital, but it was difficult to get my mom to sign. Finally I got the chance to go in to the medical records office and view the details, on microfilm. It would be over 1000 dollars to get them on paper because there were so many - and they charge 1.25 per sheet "because they can", I was told. But while I was back there a lady came up to me and told me to print a few important things out, and that she would not charge...I just do not even know what to say right now. For YEARS I have been searching for a reason, an answer, some kind of possibility as to why this happened. Something that would rule out his personal responsibility in his death. I feel like this is the answer I have been looking for. I always felt in my heart that his was not a typical suicide, and all this time I have been silently placing blame against the doc that treated him. I still believe he too made some devastating mistakes in his choice of treatments for my father, but now I think I can rest assured there was never any malicious intent. (i know that sounds silly, but gosh i am sure I am not alone in that suicide survivors wish to blame anybody they can find, as long as its not their deceased loved one. Or at least thats how I have grown to feel over the years in my own situation.
Oh I just feel so sorry for him - I cannot believe it...I just cannot believe this happened to him. And I just could never ever convey how deeply I miss him.
LarryHoover you have no idea how much this post means to me - you just do not have a clue. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for taking the time to come up with this possible scenario. I believe that the knowledge of this likely theory is going to be the turning point in my life, where I can finally begin to stop being "Stuck" and obsessed with wondering "WHY".
Wow - I just cannot express how I feel at this moment. Your reply means the world to me. Gosh that sounds so dramatic. BUt honest to goodness, that is the truth.
photobucket.com/calamityjanelikespictures
that is the link to a few pictures of my dad. The last two are of him and I. I miss him so so much.
LarryHoover - Thank you, thank you, thank you
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Posted by seldomseen on September 27, 2008, at 4:00:10
In reply to side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob?, posted by calamityjane on September 26, 2008, at 15:17:40
CJ,
I would also not rule out a stroke as a result of the infection.Larry is right that bacteria release all sorts of toxins that activate all sorts of blood clotting factors and "thicken" the blood.
Anesthesia itself could have caused a transient, but profound arrhythmia (which it certainly can do) throwing the clot to the brain.
The effects of a stroke can be quite subtle and involve changes in cognition, personality changes and depression.
AS Larry indicated, even the most routine of surgeries can go horribly wrong.
I'm so sorry for your loss and hope that you can let go of some of the pain.
Like Larry I think there is a true physiological cause for his sudden change in personality that affected in whole life outlook.
Take good care of yourself.
Seldom
Posted by Quintal on September 27, 2008, at 17:15:01
In reply to side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob?, posted by calamityjane on September 26, 2008, at 15:17:40
Hi CJ
What a tragic story, I am so sorry for your loss. Do you know if your father was given any sedatives before or after the surgery? These can sometimes cause confusion, forgetfulness and depression. I would think he would be given some medication for pain relief, and possibly something to help him sleep while he was recovering? It's possible that the decline in his mental state was a reaction to some of the medication he was given after the surgery. I remember you posting here for answers last year. I hope you find some clues to help put your mind at rest.
Q
Posted by calamityjane on September 27, 2008, at 20:11:27
In reply to Re: side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob? » calamityjane, posted by Quintal on September 27, 2008, at 17:15:01
Thanks for all of the responses. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss what happened to my dad. My family are like CIA and dont discuss anything with me. Ever piece of information I have at this point has been acquired all through my own searching.
To answer your question, he was in fact given sedatives along the course of his treatment. At the time of his death his current scripts included:
Halcion
Restoril
Xanax
Desimipramine
Imipramine
Dexedrine
DarvocetALL of those being prescribed to a suicidal man. Can you believe that? The two that I have the biggest problem with actually are not even narcotics. ITs the antidepressants -Desimipramine and Imipramine. Even back then, PDRs instructed practitioners to NEVER give these particular drugs to a suicidal patient, as they were dangerous in the fact that overdose was fatal.
So for the life of me I cannot figure out WHY his quack doc would do such a thing. I hold a lot of anger and disgust for that man. But now that I know that my dad truly had a condition that his doctor was not aware of, it makes me less upset about that.
Not that I am forgetting what that doctor did. But I do forgive him in my own heart.
Posted by Tony P on September 27, 2008, at 23:44:16
In reply to Re: side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob?, posted by calamityjane on September 27, 2008, at 20:11:27
My heart goes out to you. I had a similar experience with my father. He was never the same after being operated on for an aortic aneurysm. It was so painful to see him gradually waste away both physically and mentally that when he finally died I thought I had already done all my grieving for him. But I still miss him twenty years later.
Tony P
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2008, at 13:44:37
In reply to Re: side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob?, posted by calamityjane on September 27, 2008, at 0:56:10
Wow, Cj. I'm so very glad my musings have helped you so much. You're very welcome.
Seldomseen's conjecture around stroke is also quite a valid theory.
I hope your catharsis liberates you.
Best,
Lar
Posted by Quintal on September 30, 2008, at 14:41:39
In reply to Re: side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob?, posted by calamityjane on September 27, 2008, at 20:11:27
Hi CJ,
I understand your anger. It does seem like an unusual choice of meds. Halcion in particular has been associated with psychiatric disturbance, and I think it has been withdrawn from the market in many places because of this. You're right - he really shouldn't have been given a large supply of those two antidepressants if he was suicidal, and it is unusual to be prescribing two TCAs together. It's a shame you can't discuss this openly with your family. Have you ever had bereavement counselling or some sort of therapy to talk through why these things happened? Have you ever looked into family therapy? It sounds as though you might all have wounds as a family that need to heal, but from what you say they don't sound open to that kind of thing. It must be painful to hold all that inside. I hope you can find some peace somehow.
Q
Posted by calamityjane on October 2, 2008, at 16:25:15
In reply to Re: side effects - anesthetic?can u answer this drBob? » calamityjane, posted by Quintal on September 30, 2008, at 14:41:39
> Hi CJ,
>
> I understand your anger. It does seem like an unusual choice of meds. Halcion in particular has been associated with psychiatric disturbance, and I think it has been withdrawn from the market in many places because of this. You're right - he really shouldn't have been given a large supply of those two antidepressants if he was suicidal, and it is unusual to be prescribing two TCAs together. It's a shame you can't discuss this openly with your family. Have you ever had bereavement counselling or some sort of therapy to talk through why these things happened? Have you ever looked into family therapy? It sounds as though you might all have wounds as a family that need to heal, but from what you say they don't sound open to that kind of thing. It must be painful to hold all that inside. I hope you can find some peace somehow.
>
> QWell, there was some minimal family therapy in the beginning, but that ended in about 1987 - only about one year after his death. that particular guy told my mom to tell me that my dad had a heart attack. then one day during a session he told us all to go home and stand around my dad's picture and hold hands, and chant "we are mad at you for leaving us" over and over. Can you imagine? So I said "why are we mad? its not like he CHOSE to die" then they all just stared at me. the doctor cleared his throat, my brother told me to shut up, and about that time everybody kind of stood up and said "well, see ya next week"....
So, bad experience with counseling. I dont know. maybe i should try again.
And as a side note - I called the family doctor who was cited on these hospital records I acquired recently. He is still in practice, yet denied my request to meet with me. All I wanted was for him to discuss the surgery with me - the same stuff I posted up above. His office manager was a total you know what. Told me:
"Dr. C was NOT your dad's friend - he was his doctor - and he cannot help you with this."I was like "HUH>????" Cause I never implied they were friends! I called her supervisor and told her what she had said. The super. called me back today apologized for her employee. Told me that she reported the incedent to her own boss.
But she said Dr. C still would not see me. When I explained a second time my purpose, she said she would attempt one more time.
So now I wait.
This is the end of the thread.
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