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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by BradD on October 26, 2004, at 8:35:29
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 3:07:15
> > > I can't believe doctors are prescribing GHB for anxiety disorders.
> > >
> > > Its such a road to disaster.
> > >
> > > Deadly interactions with alcohol, levels needed for the same effects increase with daily use, potential for death on overdose is extremely high, with the window of safety and hazard being so small.
> > >
> > > Its very very good for SA on a one time basis but taking it daily, well..... Whatever is good for you, just take care please.
> >
> > That is simply not true. Potential for death is practically non-exsistant. You bought a heavy dose of propaganda. Did you even read my link to my post?
> >
> >
>
>
> I watched someone die in a night club from having too much GHB and one bottled beer.
Why are you blaming GHB for the death and not alcohol?Please check (apart from Carlos links) www.xyrem.us
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 8:53:37
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)? » DynaUnity333, posted by BradD on October 26, 2004, at 8:35:29
I'm not blaming GHB for the death, jeez i hate the Internet at times.
i was saying that GHB is a very very dangerous medication and taking enough of it can (due to certain circumstances certainly lead to death).
In the case i was referring to the effects opf the GHB lowered his common sense enough to take alcohol with it even though even the shops where we used to be able to buy it warned us not to EVER drink with it for fear of breathing difficulties.
The fact that GHB has a response within minutes of ingesting it and the fact that it is robust can lead to many complications that would definitely not arise if the user was of a normal state of mind.
I don't doubt the benefits, have felt them myself full force, but i just can't see it being a long term solution to any anxiety disorder cand imho really can create serious situations out of nowhere.
Posted by Carlos C on October 26, 2004, at 17:12:49
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 8:53:37
Why does everyone that supposedly die from GHB die at a club? I'm calling BS. Whatever that person took and "died from" was not GHB. You're WAY more likely to die from alcohol.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2004, at 17:40:08
In reply to GHB kills? Give it a break. » DynaUnity333, posted by Carlos C on October 26, 2004, at 17:12:49
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 27, 2004, at 7:30:14
In reply to GHB kills? Give it a break. » DynaUnity333, posted by Carlos C on October 26, 2004, at 17:12:49
> Why does everyone that supposedly die from GHB die at a club? I'm calling BS. Whatever that person took and "died from" was not GHB. You're WAY more likely to die from alcohol.
First of all don't get defensive because this so called wonderpill has problems associated with it.
Back in them days GHB was very easily and legaly obtained from certain shops in ever city in the UK, and it was phamaceutical grade stuff.
The guy dies because he mixed GHB with alcohol, its as simple as that.
The guy would also not have done such a thing had he not been HIGH on GHB because thats what it is, a HIGH.
This is why dosing needs to be done continually throughout the day because you come down from the drug very quickly.
And FYI the blood level required for respiratory arrest with alcohol is substantially higher (rediculously so) then with GHB, so your (you are more likely to die with alcohol) statement is a little silly, although i understand you being defensive.
By all means take it and enjoy it (truly i mean that), but it will NOT be your cure for social anxiety in the long term, and the withdrawal from it if you keep your bloodlevels of the drug at a continual level will be noticeable, but these are things you will find out in time.
Personally i think GHB as a drastic measure for performance anxiety would be spot on although the user would be inclined to do silly things at the peak, plus he would have to keep dosing which would make it problematic (if the performance was over a long period of time.)
As a long term measure, personally, i find it absurd that it has been prescribed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 17:29:43
In reply to Re: GHB kills? Give it a break., posted by DynaUnity333 on October 27, 2004, at 7:30:14
> your ... statement is a little silly, although i understand you being defensive.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. The last time you were blocked, it was for 1 week, so this time, it's for 3.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:08:16
In reply to Re: blocked for 3 weeks » DynaUnity333, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 17:29:43
Regarding GHB, I haven't tried it, but I imagine it's a true social phobia killer since it increases GABA release (indirectly through stimulation of GHB receptors), increases serotonin turnover rate (not to be confused with increasing serotonin levels) and has rewarding properties via mu-opioid activity. Also, the dopamine release upon waking is a plus. But I'm staying away from it until they have a cheap, extended release version with proven safety.
Regarding the PROGLUMIDE, the only other med I'm taking now with it is .5 mg Klonopin every other day. The Buprenorphine is completely out of my system now. Therefore starting tomorrow, I'm going to increase the Proglumide dose to 1200-1600 mg a day so that I can truly isolate the effects its having and make a decision about its value in the fight against Social Phobia.
Posted by BradD on October 28, 2004, at 0:17:44
In reply to GHB, Proglumide, etc., posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:08:16
n/m
Posted by Carlos C on October 28, 2004, at 0:26:15
In reply to GHB, Proglumide, etc., posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:08:16
> Regarding GHB, I haven't tried it, but I imagine it's a true social phobia killer since it increases GABA release (indirectly through stimulation of GHB receptors), increases serotonin turnover rate (not to be confused with increasing serotonin levels) and has rewarding properties via mu-opioid activity. Also, the dopamine release upon waking is a plus. But I'm staying away from it until they have a cheap, extended release version with proven safety.
>
There is a company currently working on a formulation to extend GHBs duration. Besides that, safety has been proven. If you "over-dose" you just get very good restful sleep. This should never happen if you accurately measure your dose. It's less toxic than Tylenol. In fact it shows no toxicity in the human body and has many positve physical and mental benefits to boot. Unfotunately it is extremely expensive though. Lucily my health coverage covers it (for now).As has been emphasized, the overall safety of GHB is well-established, and no deaths attributable to GHB have been reported over the forty year period that this compound has been in use [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992].Of all adverse reactions that had been reported in the United States all were followed by rapid and complete recovery [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. Unlike a large proportion of other drugs including alcohol and even Tylenol, GHB has no toxic effects on the liver, kidney or other organs [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. One program of sleep therapy using six to eight grams daily for a period of eight to ten days produced no side effects. Vickers [1969] even reports that doses as high as twenty to thirty grams per twenty-four hour period have been used for several days without negative consequences In the Canadian studies of narcolepsy mentioned earlier, the nightly use of two to six teaspoons (one teaspoon equaling roughly 2.5 grams) for several years resulted in no reports of long-term adverse effects, or problems with issues of addiction or dependence. In one of these studies, one patient inadvertently ingested fifteen teaspoons without adverse consequence “other than deep sedation and headache the next day” [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. And in France, sub-anesthetic oral doses were used by “a large number of patients for about six years” without untoward effect [Laborit, 1972].
http://www.ceri.com/ghbpage.shtml
Posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:42:51
In reply to Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by BradD on October 28, 2004, at 0:17:44
Bupe seemed like a mixture between a mild opiate and a mild-moderate antidepressant (but not of the SSRI type). It definitely decreased ruminative thoughts and worrying in general. If you've responded well to painkillers in the past (Percocet, codeine, etc.), you'll probably like the Buprenorphine, unless you are a recent addict, in which case you might find it ineffective or unpleasant, or so I've heard. Another difference between Buprenorphine and codeine is that it doesn't seem to cause as much dysphoria.
For social phobia, the jury's still out. I only used it for 4 days due to severe stomach cramps and diarrhea issues. This may have been a result of mixing the bupe with Proglumide, which is a gastric receptor antagonist.
Anyway, like I posted before, I am going to take only the Proglumide for the next 7-12 days to isolate the physical and psychological effects of that drug. Then I will do the same with buprenorphine. Once I am satisfied about what each particular drug is doing, I will post a more informative follow-up.
Posted by Iansf on October 28, 2004, at 20:17:13
In reply to GHB is proven safe. » Michael Bell, posted by Carlos C on October 28, 2004, at 0:26:15
Could you please clarify something for me. Even if GHB is not dangerous on its own, is it dangerous with alcohol, or were those stories trumped up as well? Thanks.
> > Regarding GHB, I haven't tried it, but I imagine it's a true social phobia killer since it increases GABA release (indirectly through stimulation of GHB receptors), increases serotonin turnover rate (not to be confused with increasing serotonin levels) and has rewarding properties via mu-opioid activity. Also, the dopamine release upon waking is a plus. But I'm staying away from it until they have a cheap, extended release version with proven safety.
> >
> There is a company currently working on a formulation to extend GHBs duration. Besides that, safety has been proven. If you "over-dose" you just get very good restful sleep. This should never happen if you accurately measure your dose. It's less toxic than Tylenol. In fact it shows no toxicity in the human body and has many positve physical and mental benefits to boot. Unfotunately it is extremely expensive though. Lucily my health coverage covers it (for now).
>
> As has been emphasized, the overall safety of GHB is well-established, and no deaths attributable to GHB have been reported over the forty year period that this compound has been in use [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992].Of all adverse reactions that had been reported in the United States all were followed by rapid and complete recovery [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. Unlike a large proportion of other drugs including alcohol and even Tylenol, GHB has no toxic effects on the liver, kidney or other organs [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. One program of sleep therapy using six to eight grams daily for a period of eight to ten days produced no side effects. Vickers [1969] even reports that doses as high as twenty to thirty grams per twenty-four hour period have been used for several days without negative consequences In the Canadian studies of narcolepsy mentioned earlier, the nightly use of two to six teaspoons (one teaspoon equaling roughly 2.5 grams) for several years resulted in no reports of long-term adverse effects, or problems with issues of addiction or dependence. In one of these studies, one patient inadvertently ingested fifteen teaspoons without adverse consequence “other than deep sedation and headache the next day” [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. And in France, sub-anesthetic oral doses were used by “a large number of patients for about six years” without untoward effect [Laborit, 1972].
>
> http://www.ceri.com/ghbpage.shtml
>
>
Posted by Carlos C on October 28, 2004, at 21:08:58
In reply to Re: GHB is proven safe. » Carlos C, posted by Iansf on October 28, 2004, at 20:17:13
> Could you please clarify something for me. Even if GHB is not dangerous on its own, is it dangerous with alcohol, or were those stories trumped up as well? Thanks.
>
Good question. I don't drink but at certain doses, for some, the effects of GHB can be similar to alcohol. If you drink for it's inihibiting effects or anxiety there is no need for it. Well, heck there is really no need for alcohol at all. There are no health-benefits from it (exception red wine). But that's another issue. Anyways, to your question...GHB should not be used with benzodiazepines phenothiazines, various painkillers, alcohol, or anticonvulsants. I've had no problem at doses @ 2.5 grams and a benzo once. Basically CNS depressants with GHB are not a good idea.
"Although contraindications for GHB have been described as “remarkably few” [Vickers, 1969], those who suffer from any of the following conditions should not use GHB: severe illness of any kind, epilepsy, eclampsia (convulsions), bradycardia (slowed heart-beat) due to conduction problems [left-bundle-branch-block is an example of conduction difficulty], Cushing’s syndrome, severe cardiovascular disease, hyperprolactinemia, and severe hypertension [Gallimberti, 1989; Vickers, 1969]."
Posted by Marty on May 15, 2008, at 10:57:56
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » BradD, posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:42:51
So Michael, Buprenorphine and social phobia ? .. what's your conclusion ? Did you found something that helps your SP ?
/\/\arty
Posted by Marty on May 15, 2008, at 11:02:35
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by Marty on May 15, 2008, at 10:57:56
> So Michael, Buprenorphine and social phobia ? .. what's your conclusion ? Did you found something that helps your SP ?
>
> /\/\artySORRY, I meant ->> PROGLUMIDE <<- !! ......
/\/\arty
Posted by garylee on May 16, 2008, at 16:25:43
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by Marty on May 15, 2008, at 10:57:56
Sulpiride is excellent for SP. I have been taking 100mg for about 5 years now. Also has a slight antidepressant effect too in low doses. No more crossing the road when a group of people are walking towards you and no more depersonalization in face to face situations! Well, that's how I was anyway...
Hope that helps.
Gary
Posted by garylee on May 16, 2008, at 16:28:46
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by Marty on May 15, 2008, at 10:57:56
Sorry, forgot to mention the Buprenorphine! lol. Are we talking Subutex brand name? if so that med almost took me into remission... Lasted a month then slowely wore off... Also the consipation was far too much to handle! So, yes it does help with SP...
Gary
Posted by Marty on May 16, 2008, at 18:07:19
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m), posted by garylee on May 16, 2008, at 16:28:46
> Sorry, forgot to mention the Buprenorphine! lol. Are we talking Subutex brand name? if so that med almost took me into remission... Lasted a month then slowely wore off... Also the consipation was far too much to handle! So, yes it does help with SP...
>
> GaryHi Gary,
Can I ask you what was the effect of Buprenorphine on you and your social phobia ? I'm amazed if it really help even mildly because it would support 'Michael Bell' hypothesis about social phobic having too much CCK activity/concentration ... If that's the case we need to collect a couple 'anecdoctal cases' from people like you and Michael and report that to the scientific community ASAP.
/\/\arty
Posted by garylee on May 16, 2008, at 19:38:40
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » garylee, posted by Marty on May 16, 2008, at 18:07:19
> > Sorry, forgot to mention the Buprenorphine! lol. Are we talking Subutex brand name? if so that med almost took me into remission... Lasted a month then slowely wore off... Also the consipation was far too much to handle! So, yes it does help with SP...
> >
> > Gary
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Can I ask you what was the effect of Buprenorphine on you and your social phobia ? I'm amazed if it really help even mildly because it would support 'Michael Bell' hypothesis about social phobic having too much CCK activity/concentration ... If that's the case we need to collect a couple 'anecdoctal cases' from people like you and Michael and report that to the scientific community ASAP.
>
> /\/\artyHi Marty
Can't really explain the loss of the SP because the Buprenorphine pretty much put me into remission. I was still taking my other meds, and my sleepers but I was taking 2mg under the tounge at night and sleeping well. I was able to get up for work at 7:30 no problem and was getting worker of the week etc at work, it was great!
Sadly after about 3 1/2 weeks it started to poop out, also I couldn't take the constipation anymore, hadn't been to the toilet for over a week, it was like carrying bricks! lol
I want to try a stronger opiate now, have found a source for Hydrocodone, just getting the money together to order it, so we'll see...
Gary
Posted by undopaminergic on May 17, 2008, at 18:42:36
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m), posted by garylee on May 16, 2008, at 19:38:40
> >
> > Can I ask you what was the effect of Buprenorphine on you and your social phobia ? I'm amazed if it really help even mildly because it would support 'Michael Bell' hypothesis about social phobic having too much CCK activity/concentration ... If that's the case we need to collect a couple 'anecdoctal cases' from people like you and Michael and report that to the scientific community ASAP.
> >
> > /\/\arty
>
> Hi Marty
>
> Can't really explain the loss of the SP because the Buprenorphine pretty much put me into remission. I was still taking my other meds, and my sleepers but I was taking 2mg under the tounge at night and sleeping well. I was able to get up for work at 7:30 no problem and was getting worker of the week etc at work, it was great!
>
> Sadly after about 3 1/2 weeks it started to poop out, also I couldn't take the constipation anymore, hadn't been to the toilet for over a week, it was like carrying bricks! lol
>
> I want to try a stronger opiate now, have found a source for Hydrocodone, just getting the money together to order it, so we'll see...
>
> Gary
>For two days, I've experimented with codeine-based cough syrup in an attempt to lessen my cough, but incidentally, I've noticed that I feel remarkably relaxed and free from all worry and discomfort. I'm certain that in people responding to codeine (or other opiates) as I do, it would be a highly effective treatment for social phobia/anxiety, and quite probably other anxiety disorders, at least in the short term.
Tolerance often develops to many of the effects of opioids. Unfortunately, constipation is one of the effects particularly resistant to tolerance, and in long-term use of opiates, it often requires treatment with laxative agents. The extent to which tolerance develops to the anxiolytic effects is an interesting question, an answer to which is essential for longer term use of these agents for SP or other anxiety disorders. If it is an issue, memantine could be a possible remedy - it does prevent loss of the analgesic effects of morphine, and might help preserve anxiolytic efficacy also.
Posted by Michael Bell on May 19, 2008, at 16:41:18
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by Marty on May 15, 2008, at 10:57:56
Buprenorphine did not do much. Most effective meds are:
1) Nardil (too many side effects, had near death hypertensive crisis)
2) Klonopin (but induces depression and paranoia)
3) Lyrica
Posted by Marty on May 19, 2008, at 16:54:13
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m), posted by Michael Bell on May 19, 2008, at 16:41:18
> Buprenorphine did not do much.
Ok. I wonder if it's a placebo effect for people who says it helps. Currently there is nothing CCK related in the pharmas pipeline that I'm aware of...
> 1) Nardil (too many side effects, had near death hypertensive crisis)Been there, done that. but for the time it worked it was very nice. Btw, the Gabaergic effect has been associated to one of Nardil metabolite that doesn't have any MAOI effect. There's a scientist in Canada who did a couple research on that in the last years. If you're interested I could find the name of the molecule and some pubmed URL about it.
> 2) Klonopin (but induces depression and paranoia)
I wasn't aware paranoia was a possible side-effect of Klonopin. Depression I was; been there, done that.. 2 times. also very irritable.
> 3) LyricaI agree that it helps. Even for depression in my case! .. but the 'drunk' feeling isn't a good thing in the long run and some side effects (i.e: Sexual dysfunction) are difficult to deal with. Also it's more addictive than admited.. after 2 years on it I had a hard time stopping it.
Michael, would you give a shot at D-Cycloserine ( + therapy for social phobia) .. ?btw, what are you on right now ?
/\/\arty
Posted by undopaminergic on May 21, 2008, at 5:49:50
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by Marty on May 19, 2008, at 16:54:13
> > Buprenorphine did not do much.
>
> Ok. I wonder if it's a placebo effect for people who says it helps.
>No, opiates are powerfully anxiolytic in many cases. In my experience they're definitely more useful than benzos. My experience is admittedly a bit special, since I also find stimulants to be more anxiolytic than benzos.
Posted by Marty on May 21, 2008, at 8:11:05
In reply to THEY'RE HERE!!, posted by Michael Bell on October 17, 2004, at 13:48:24
DAMN! .. I mixed the name of the drugs Michael was talking about. The one that I wanted to know if it helps is the CCK antagonist Proglumide, NOT BUPRENORPHINE.
I've just realized that, sorry.
So.. anyone could tell us about it's Proglumide experience ? Michael ? :S
/\/\arty
Posted by Marty on May 21, 2008, at 8:13:20
In reply to Re: Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m), posted by undopaminergic on May 21, 2008, at 5:49:50
> No, opiates are powerfully anxiolytic in many cases. In my experience they're definitely more useful than benzos. My experience is admittedly a bit special, since I also find stimulants to be more anxiolytic than benzos.
-- I just realized that I was thinking of Proglumide, a CCK antagonist the whole time and not Buprenorphine. The latter being an opiates I don't have any doubt it provided you some anxiolytic effects.
/\/\arty
Posted by Michael Bell on May 22, 2008, at 9:53:10
In reply to Re: THEY'RE HERE!! » Michael Bell, posted by Marty on May 21, 2008, at 8:11:05
Proglumide had no discernable effect that I could tell. Right now I am on Lyrica, which seems to be the best balance of efficacy and lack of side effects
This is the end of the thread.
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