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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by utopizen on December 15, 2007, at 9:42:52
<<<<<<Dr. Bob-- I figured it was safe to post this hear, as I'm not advising anyone take Piracetam, and it's primarily concerned with using an agent as a means to test the hypoglutamatergic hypothesis for autism more so than any one drug)>>>>>
A Double-blind Placebo Controlled Trial of Piracetam Added to Risperidone in Patients with Autistic Disorder.
Akhondzadeh S, Tajdar H, Mohammadi MR, Mohammadi M, Nouroozinejad GH, Shabstari OL, Ghelichnia HA.
Psychiatric Research Center, Roozbeh Psychiatric Hospital, Tehran University of Medical Sciences, South Kargar Street, Tehran, 13337, Iran, s.akhond@neda.net.It has been reported that autism is a hypoglutamatergic disorder. Therefore, it was of interest to assess the efficacy of piracetam, a positive modulator of AMPA-sensitive glutamate receptors in autistic disorder. About 40 children between the ages three and 11 years (inclusive) with a DSM IV clinical diagnosis of autism and who were outpatients from a specialty clinic for children were recruited. The children presented with a chief complaint of severely disruptive symptoms related to autistic disorder. Patients were randomly allocated to piracetam + risperidone (Group A) or placebo + risperidone (Group B) for a 10-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. The dose of risperidone was titrated up to 2 mg/day for children between 10 and 40 kg and 3 mg/day for children weighting above 40 kg. The dose of piracetam was titrated up to 800 mg/day. Patients were assessed at baseline and after 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 weeks of starting medication. The measure of the outcome was the Aberrant Behavior Checklist-Community (ABC-C) Rating Scale (total score). The ABC-C Rating Scale scores improved with piracetam. The difference between the two protocols was significant as indicated by the effect of group, the between subjects factor (F = 5.85, d.f. = 1, P = 0.02). The changes at the endpoint compared with baseline were: -11.90 +/- 3.79 (mean +/- SD) and -5.15 +/- 3.04 for group A and B respectively. A significant difference was observed on the change in scores in the ABC-C Rating Scale in week 10 compared with baseline in the two groups (t = 6.017, d.f. = 38, P < 0.0001). The results suggest that a combination of atypical antipsychotic medications and a glutamate agent such as piracetam, might have increase synergistic effects in the treatment of autism.
PMID: 17929164 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Posted by Sigismund on December 15, 2007, at 16:56:57
In reply to Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study, posted by utopizen on December 15, 2007, at 9:42:52
There's some stuff here, which I didn't get overexcited about, but still.....
Posted by bleauberry on December 15, 2007, at 20:33:22
In reply to Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study, posted by utopizen on December 15, 2007, at 9:42:52
A bit of a sidetrack from your original topic, but just wanted to say hundreds of autistic kids out there are significantly improved or cured with low dose DMSA frequent dose chelation. Apparently there is a lot of new evidence and research into heavy metal intoxication being a major cause of autism. Mercury is passed on from the mother, and is also found as a preservative in vaccinations. Remove the mercury, the kid feels better and autistic symptoms disappear. Mercury does tons of damage to the gut and the nervous system, including the glutamate system. So if piracetam helps, I can understand why. It is not a cure though. Getting the mercury out is. Piracetam may well be a great supplement to get the child feeling better. It as well as hydergine possess potentials and benefits for a wide variety of psychiatric and nervous system disorders.
Posted by linkadge on December 15, 2007, at 23:15:40
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study, posted by bleauberry on December 15, 2007, at 20:33:22
Blueberry, I was just wondering if you have had any objective measures of mercury toxicity. Ie, has a hair analysis demonstrated murcury toxicity?
Not that I doubt you, but I am just wondering how somebody goes about determining whether one has elevated murcury.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on December 16, 2007, at 18:31:57
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study » bleauberry, posted by linkadge on December 15, 2007, at 23:15:40
Hi Link! Hey, good questions. Merc toxic diagnosis is not as easy as one would think.
Sadly, I am convinced metal toxicity is far more common than realized. People are being unsuccessfully or erroneously treated for autism, arthritis, intestinal issues, migraines, depression, anxiety, intolerances, sensitivities, schizophrenia, tremors, foggy-headedness, chronic fatigue, fibromylagia, allergies...when it is common for the root of it all to be the devil called mercury. Add a little lead to it and you've got a tough to treat patient, since lead magnifies mercury's toxicity by a multitude. Mercury was used in childhood vaccinations and it passes from mother to baby. Its constant vapor can be seen rising off silver fillings, and my dentist can verify it with a saliva sample before and after chewing a piece of gum for patients who are "on the fence" about whether to remove their amalgams or not.
The best diagnosis can be made with the book Amalgam Illness by Phd Andrew Cutler, who himself suffered mercury toxicity. The book is written mostly in doctor science language but can be understood by you and me. It goes over symptoms, lab tests, how to interpret hair samples, challenge tests, and of course the only safe effective way to chelate toxic metals, using old-time standards like DMSA, DMPS, and/or alpha lipoic acid.
For me symptoms alone were diagnostic. Two hair samples a year apart were diagnostic. People should not be misled though...it is not the amount of mercury in hair that is important, but rather the pattern of all the other metals. Mercury has footprint patterns of what it does in dispslacing other metals. My patterns were striking, with elevated mercury and lead just making the whole interpretation a piece of cake. Strange though the way mercury affects other metals, it is common for the most toxic people to show very low mercury in hair. The book explains in molecular/chemistry language why that is. Doctors Data is the only one that tests the entire range of metals crucial for the diagnosis. I had a number of routine lab tests out of range, more than is normal, and that is diagnostic. One must use the "counting rules" to do that. My DMSA challenge test showed a 70% increase of mercury excretion in urine and a 500% increase of lead. But anyone reading this, do not do the challenge test! Read the book first. There is a safe way to do it. The common one-hefty-dose method is dangerous with lots of horror stories on the net. I suffered for weeks after mine due to the massive redistribution of metals. The FDA has a test called urine porphyrin which indicates how much damage has been done by metals, but does not indicate the current toxic load of metals. By comparing various parts of this lab test one is steered toward which metal is the offender.
Genetics plays a big part in why some people become toxic and others not, and why some people can have severe symptoms at a certain level while someone else with a higher level will have no symptoms.
Anyone reading this, stay far away from cilantro, chlorella, saunas, magnetic clays, n-acetyl-cysteine, glutathione if you suspect you have metal toxicity. There are enough horror stories of permanent neurological damage caused by these things when someone has a high metal burden. They are dangerous for toxic folks. They tend to stir up the metals faster than they are excreted, which is very bad and makes you much sicker. For healthy people or minorly toxic people, they are probably ok to use, though no one has any idea how they work, what the active ingredients are, or what their half lives are.
DMSA, DMPS, and alpha-lipoic acid are the only chelators. Used improperly they will make one sicker. The key is to respect their halflives. DMSA must be dosed every 4 hours, DMPS every 8 hours, or alpha-lipoic acid every 3 hours...all in very small doses, and around the clock. This is very safe and very effective. Do not allow redistribution to occur, which will if the drugs are taken farther apart than their halflives.
ALA is the only substance that will remove mercury from the brain. DMSA removes from the brain of rats, which have a much more permiable brain barrier than humans. It does not remove mercury from the human brain. Proper chelation involves using DMSA for a few months to lower the body mercury, and then add or switch to ALA to get the brain mercury. If ALA is used too soon, it will transport high levels of body mercury into the brain. Not cool. Whenever I hear of someone having a bad reaction to trying ALA as an antioxidant or whatever, I immediately wonder about their toxic load. Hmmm.
Anyway, I'm off on a tangent here. To answer your question, multiple avenues were used to make my diagnosis. I wish I would have had the Amalgam Illness book earlier because I could have avoided dangerous diagnostic mistakes, and I could have understood better what all the lab and hair samples were saying. I could have gotten a year's jumpstart on this and avoided ECT and multiple drug failures.
Link, you like to read and do research. The book is I think $30 used at amazon. The first half of the book deals with amalgam history, politics, daignosis, finding a doctor, what mercury does. The second half deals with what supplements to take for various symptoms...you would love this stuff. It reminded me of you when I was reading it. All kinds of herbs, vitamins, minerals, drugs, etc for all kinds of symptoms, but more importantly, why to use them and what they do.
> Blueberry, I was just wondering if you have had any objective measures of mercury toxicity. Ie, has a hair analysis demonstrated murcury toxicity?
>
> Not that I doubt you, but I am just wondering how somebody goes about determining whether one has elevated murcury.
>
> Linkadge
>
Posted by linkadge on December 16, 2007, at 20:34:42
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study-MERCURY » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on December 16, 2007, at 18:31:57
Well, I don't know what to say. It seems like you have done a lot of reading!
I would personally have a hard time beliving that heavy metal toxicity was the *root* cause of my problems unless there were some sort of objective test to show this.
It is an interesting possiblilty however for which I am willing to do some more reading.
Thanks for the reply
Linkadge
Posted by utopizen on December 16, 2007, at 21:34:26
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study-MERCURY, posted by linkadge on December 16, 2007, at 20:34:42
Link,
with all due respect to the fellow posters, you have ADD. You're still in school, I believe.
Focus on meeting new people. Heck, let me even put on the aluminum foil hat myself and say, yeah, maybe you might even have Mercury in your body.
What the heck will that do for helping you accept your self, your condition, and becoming a person with more expansive interests than before?
will it add to your love life? your sense of well-being?
Do yourself a favor (one that you deserve): leave this group, like I did like 2 years ago, more or less... and go to meetup.com.
Learn to salsa dance. Visit an art museum with people who share your interests. Play laser frisbee at night.
Your time is valuable, and you are young. Ignore this board. I never once, in all the time I spent on it, got anything out of it other than a group of people reinforcing the sense I somehow was ok to obsess about stuff that was beyond my control, regardless of what info was out there to Google.
I don't care what people think about this post. Go outside, Linkadge, and live the life you were meant to live--- join a meetup.com group, and enjoy things.
As John Stuart Mill said, when he was suffering from melancholia at the age of 8, "The moment we ask if we are happy, we cease to be happy."Consider that quote, in context of what the objective of this board. Is dwelling on stuff going to help? How's that working out for you? Last time I checked, you were here at least since '02. Do you see yourself being on this board in 2012? 2030?
That's really not the idea I think Dr. Bob had in mind here... there's getting help now and then, and then there's turning a condition into a preoccupation. And that can be worse than what you started off with. Take it from me-- I was you for like, 2 years straight.
Your time is valuable. Don't waste it on things that aren't. You will reget it later, as have I.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on December 16, 2007, at 23:59:31
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study-MERCURY » linkadge, posted by utopizen on December 16, 2007, at 21:34:26
>>Heck, let me even put on the aluminum foil hat myself
>> Do yourself a favor (one that you deserve): leave this group,
>> I never once, in all the time I spent on it, got anything out of it other than a group of people reinforcing the sense I somehow was ok to obsess about stuff that was beyond my control,
>> That's really not the idea I think Dr. Bob had in mind here... there's getting help now and then, and then there's turning a condition into a preoccupation.Please don't be sarcastic, post anything that might lead others to feel accused or put down, or jump to conclusions about others.
>I don't care what people think about this post.
That's certainly your right, however, see the FAQ:
"Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place."
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by cumulative on December 17, 2007, at 1:05:57
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study-MERCURY » linkadge, posted by utopizen on December 16, 2007, at 21:34:26
While there's something to be said for much of what you posted, I think that firstly, certain conditions make it very difficult to create and maintain the kind of effort you describe, secondly, even socializing won't take care of some underlying problems, and thirdly, you make a great assumption regarding linkadge's life (he could easily just be spending some free time here, like I do) that probably isn't even true, like if I were to allude that you just made that emotional post because you were strung out on desoxyn.
Posted by cumulative on December 17, 2007, at 1:08:12
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study-MERCURY » linkadge, posted by utopizen on December 16, 2007, at 21:34:26
I think, also, that the experience of many people here who have found their working medications directly from the experience of others on the board, and others who are buoyed by the board in times of stress, is enough to go against your tale of "never once getting anything" from dr-bob.
Posted by Deputy Racer on December 17, 2007, at 1:50:01
In reply to Re: utopizen, posted by cumulative on December 17, 2007, at 1:05:57
> like if I were to allude that you just made that emotional post because you were strung out on desoxyn.
Please don't post anything which could lead others to feel accused or put down. You were warned several weeks ago, so this time I'm going to block you from posting for one week.
If you have any questions regarding the posting policies on this site, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Follow ups to this action should be directed to the Administration board and should themselves be civil.
Dr Bob has ultimate authority over all administrative issues on this site, and may choose at any time to revise or reverse any action taken by a deputy.
Deputy Racer
Posted by ny2bk on December 17, 2007, at 11:18:06
I dont use the other boards here,so im not sure to which this post belongs,but i wanted to mention something,here is a paste of a thread above involving link...
Link,
with all due respect to the fellow posters, you have ADD. You're still in school, I believe.
Focus on meeting new people. Heck, let me even put on the aluminum foil hat myself and say, yeah, maybe you might even have Mercury in your body.
What the heck will that do for helping you accept your self, your condition, and becoming a person with more expansive interests than before?
will it add to your love life? your sense of well-being?
Do yourself a favor (one that you deserve): leave this group, like I did like 2 years ago, more or less... and go to meetup.com.
Learn to salsa dance. Visit an art museum with people who share your interests. Play laser frisbee at night.
Your time is valuable, and you are young. Ignore this board. I never once, in all the time I spent on it, got anything out of it other than a group of people reinforcing the sense I somehow was ok to obsess about stuff that was beyond my control, regardless of what info was out there to Google.
I don't care what people think about this post. Go outside, Linkadge, and live the life you were meant to live--- join a meetup.com group, and enjoy things.
As John Stuart Mill said, when he was suffering from melancholia at the age of 8, "The moment we ask if we are happy, we cease to be happy."Consider that quote, in context of what the objective of this board. Is dwelling on stuff going to help? How's that working out for you? Last time I checked, you were here at least since '02. Do you see yourself being on this board in 2012? 2030?
That's really not the idea I think Dr. Bob had in mind here... there's getting help now and then, and then there's turning a condition into a preoccupation. And that can be worse than what you started off with. Take it from me-- I was you for like, 2 years straight.
Your time is valuable. Don't waste it on things that aren't. You will reget it later, as have I.
<<<<OK i think there is still confusion on emotionol disroders in my "view"
This is when told......-Go out more,do things,be more social,attend partys,etc,etc,....I get frustrated because i dont think people understand that a good reason many are here is because these things like above mentioned are not NEW to us,im sure many thought to GO OUT AND DO STUFF,opposed to posting here or being online period.
The problem is,in my view of course,is that these things told to us are often GOALS......NOT OPTIONS.
I know what i WANNA DO,i simply cant,and i fight this fight in hopes i can live a life as close to normal as possable,of course this is simply MY VIEW ON THE SITUATION.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!
Posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2007, at 11:55:15
In reply to Not Sure, posted by ny2bk on December 17, 2007, at 11:18:06
Oh I know what you mean. If I could work or be gone all day on happy excursions I would be. It's horrible to be messed up. Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on December 17, 2007, at 13:14:22
In reply to Blocked for 1 week » cumulative, posted by Deputy Racer on December 17, 2007, at 1:50:01
>While there's something to be said for much of what you posted, I think that firstly, certain conditions make it very difficult to create and maintain the kind of effort you describe, secondly, even socializing won't take care of some underlying problems, and thirdly, you make a great assumption regarding linkadge's life (he could easily just be spending some free time here, like I do) that probably isn't even true,
Posted by linkadge on December 17, 2007, at 13:15:55
In reply to Re: Piracetam+Risperidone- Autistic Study-MERCURY » linkadge, posted by utopizen on December 16, 2007, at 21:34:26
I thing some of what was said was usefull. However, its not always fair to say things about people you know online because you don't really know their whole lifestyle.
Most of the time I spend at babble is in taking short breaks from studying. Its not always practical to go throw a party during a breif study break.
I do visit other sites do, I mainly check this one as people sometimes post interesting studies and research.
Linkadge
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on December 17, 2007, at 13:58:07
In reply to Not Sure, posted by ny2bk on December 17, 2007, at 11:18:06
Please don't post be sarcastic, post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, or jump to conclusions about others, **even if you're quoting someone else.**
I realize you are supporting Link and others, and that is great. However, per the FAQ, Dr. Bob asks posters not to post uncivil statements, even if they are not your own words. As I previously PBC'd several portions of this post,
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20071213/msgs/801232.html
as I think you know as you've responded in that thread, it is considered uncivil to post those parts by quoting them in your post.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
To avoid future Admin action, particularly a block, which could result after repeated warnings, it might be wise to read through the civility portion of the FAQ. If you have questions about posting guidelines, please direct those to the Admin board, or use the Notify the Administrators button.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on December 17, 2007, at 14:29:35
In reply to Blocked for 1 week » cumulative, posted by Deputy Racer on December 17, 2007, at 1:50:01
>>Follow-ups to this action should be directed to the Admin Board. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20071106/msgs/801313.html
Thanks - Deputy 10derHeart
Posted by iforgotmypassword on December 18, 2007, at 4:34:09
In reply to Redirected: Administrative issues, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on December 17, 2007, at 14:29:35
This is the end of the thread.
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