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Posted by mike_robertz on November 11, 2007, at 7:51:38
In reply to Re: Tianeptine good for panic disorder (+ adrenal? » Ayuma, posted by Maria3667 on October 8, 2007, at 14:39:57
Has anyone tried stablon for asthma ? I have been taking one 12.5mg tablet a day for 10 days with mixed results although overall my asthma seems to have improved
Unfortunately my insomnia seems to have got worse - has anyone else found this as a side effect?
mike
Posted by Sigismund on November 11, 2007, at 12:55:55
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by mike_robertz on November 11, 2007, at 7:51:38
So you take 1 tablet a day?
It's not very long acting.
Perhaps you could try taking it first thing in the morning?
ATM I am splitting mine and taking one and a half or two a day.
I have never taken mine near bedtime. Normally my last dose is in the afternoon.
It's been sleep neutral for me (I think).
Posted by sukarno on November 12, 2007, at 7:40:17
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by mike_robertz on November 11, 2007, at 7:51:38
Hi Mike. :)
Well, I began taking tianeptine for anxiety and depression, but I also have asthma and I believe it has reduced the frequency of my attacks. That said, if I am exposed to a potent allergen, I'll still have asthmatic symptoms.
You can try taking 1/2 tablet twice a day, with the last dose no later than the afternoon. You can gradually increase the dose to the recommended 3 times a day regimen or as per your doctor's orders.
Please keep us updated on your progress and post here again in a week or so. I'd like to see how your asthma is doing then. Hopefully it will improve even more.
I'm still taking four tablets a day and have found that in the long term it has no negative effects on my sleep. I can take it at bedtime and have no problems. Rarely it can make me feel slightly drowsy, although I wouldn't say it is sedating. I'll take one and then feel like taking a nap. I then wake up feeling refreshed.
If I increase the dosage, then certainly I'll wake up in the middle of the night unable to return to sleep. That's just a temporary side effect that should resolve in a week or two as your body adjusts.
Good luck.Paul
Posted by kaleidoscope on November 12, 2007, at 15:36:43
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by sukarno on November 12, 2007, at 7:40:17
Hi Paul, glad to hear you're doing well!
Posted by sukarno on November 13, 2007, at 5:51:10
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma » sukarno, posted by kaleidoscope on November 12, 2007, at 15:36:43
Hi there! :-)
I am feeling better, but I wish I could find an antidepressant that would make me feel like I did when I was on imipramine sans the side effects. Stablon was designed to help depressive illness but it seems that it isn't as "strong" as imipramine was. I remember feeling good all the time on imipramine, but it was loaded with side effects with cardiovascular toxicity prevailing as my chief complaint.
Prior to Stablon, I'd say (on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the worst) my depression was an 8 or 9. After being on Stablon for the long term, my depression is a 3 or 4. On imipramine it was more like a 1 or 2.
I am reluctant to try newer drugs because the clinical trials will say drug "Y" or "Z", for example, are generally well-tolerated and safe, but in post-marketing reports there will usually be more side effects listed, or even toxic, allergic and fatal reactions. Remember how this happened with the weight loss drugs? They were said to be safe in the beginning, but then came in reports of heart valve problems, some of which were fatal. Then there is nefazodone (Serzone) which injured or killed quite a few people. As a result, I'm very scared to try anything new.
However, I wish there was something newer that is safe like Stablon, but helps depression a bit more... Just enough to keep me feeling well most of the time. Right now I feel below par, but not normal. That's better than feeling anhedonic or melancholic and in the depths of major depression, but my quality of life isn't where I'd like it to be.
Stablon is a move in the right direction and it has been on the market since 1988, so that's almost 20 years. I suppose one could say it's tried and true.
Let's hope something a bit better will come along! :-)
It could be that I only need a higher dose of Stablon, but my finances prohibit doing so.
How is your regimen coming along?
Posted by kaleidoscope on November 13, 2007, at 14:27:01
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by sukarno on November 13, 2007, at 5:51:10
Hi Paul,
Nothing much has changed for me!
I'm sorry tianeptine isn't working as well as you need it to. How long is it since you took any of the other tricyclics?
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 13, 2007, at 16:25:01
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma » sukarno, posted by kaleidoscope on November 13, 2007, at 14:27:01
Hi Ed! :-)
I hope you are doing well.
I haven't tried the old school tricyclics since 1989, so it's been a long time. I think I have a problem with CYP2D6 not being effective enough at breaking down certain drugs like imipramine. It seems that every drug I've taken that is metabolised by that enzyme system has much stronger than usual effects. Even when I was taking Prozac, I only needed 0.5mg/day and I still had some powerful side effects in the beginning such as panic attacks, nausea and sweating.
I wonder if I was born with that flaw or that it happened later on? Perhaps I could try nortriptyline at a very minute dose. What I've found with SSRIs is that I have to take roughly 1/20 the standard adult dose.
Paul
Posted by douglass on November 13, 2007, at 17:56:03
In reply to Re: serotonin , dopamine and estrogen, posted by sukarno on September 30, 2007, at 15:26:28
you are right about the dopamine drugs being pro-sexual. GHB is by far the most pro sexual drug I've ever tried. Amineptine is also very pro sexual. Dostinex is being used as the aphrodesiac of choice in most circles where sexual performance is desired along with pramipexole coming in second. It is purely dopaminergic so a strong sexual feeling or libido is part of the dopaminergics.
The drugs most popular like cialis or the purple pill act by acting on the vessel receptors that expand the blood vessels feeding the penile area due to increasing nitric oxide, L arginine will do this to a point. These drugs only cause erection without the libido effect so that has to be nurtured durring sexual performance. Dopaminergics are just "horny" drugs if there is no physical reason for attaining erection.
Serotonergics act adversely on the libido but also causes a dysfunction of normal physical performance. I'm not sure how far I can go into explaining this without offending someone.
Posted by sukarno on November 14, 2007, at 3:52:28
In reply to Re: serotonin , dopamine and estrogen, posted by douglass on November 13, 2007, at 17:56:03
I wonder if that's why Stablon doesn't boost libido very much, but also doesn't lower it. It is serotonergic but also slightly dopaminergic. So you have one aspect of it trying to dampen libido and the other trying to raise it.
A big problem with folks on antidepressants (especially SSRIs) is the loss of libido. This can be permanent in some cases as there are case reports already and support groups on the internet for people with post-SSRI sexual dysfunction.
Drug companies and doctors would say this is because of depression, and although depression can lower libido, one would think the libido would come back to normal when the antidepressant effect kicked in and restored a somewhat normal mood.No one should be forced to lose something in order to gain something. Losing libido in order to be depression-free is not an option and never will be an option for me. I probably speak for a lot of folks when I say that.
This is why amineptine is such a great antidepressant: it works so well and also does not dampen libido. If anything, it gives it a boost.
I would say that if you are married, definitely do not take SSRIs. That could ruin a marriage, especially if you ended up with permanent sexual dysfunction.
Having said that, if the depression is so bad that you can't live your life anymore and SSRIs are the only options, then I guess one would have to take the SSRI, but hopefully only for the short term because of the sexual toxicity.Paul
Posted by florence on November 15, 2007, at 0:11:09
In reply to Re: serotonin , dopamine and estrogen, posted by sukarno on November 14, 2007, at 3:52:28
I keep reading this repeatedly- especially on this site........Must depend on the specific receptors, I guess....and to what extent they bind to that receptor.....and whether it binds pre-synaptically or post-synaptically.......and on and on....Thanks for mentioning the possible long term effects...........I found out about long term effects from a drug called Lupron.
.....no longer trust ANY drug; any dr; any insurance co; any pharm company......And I think things will get much much worse since drugs are now advertisd on tv.Short term "relief"; long term effects......for some....Too late to "sue" ... just hope unethical pharm. companies topple BIG time ... like the tobacco companies... (and I smoke)....oh well, i guess i know too much after 30 yrs of drugs and pain........florence
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I wonder if that's why Stablon doesn't boost libido very much, but also doesn't lower it. It is serotonergic but also slightly dopaminergic. So you have one aspect of it trying to dampen libido and the other trying to raise it.
>
> A big problem with folks on antidepressants (especially SSRIs) is the loss of libido. This can be permanent in some cases as there are case reports already and support groups on the internet for people with post-SSRI sexual dysfunction.
>
> Drug companies and doctors would say this is because of depression, and although depression can lower libido, one would think the libido would come back to normal when the antidepressant effect kicked in and restored a somewhat normal mood.
>
> No one should be forced to lose something in order to gain something. Losing libido in order to be depression-free is not an option and never will be an option for me. I probably speak for a lot of folks when I say that.
>
> This is why amineptine is such a great antidepressant: it works so well and also does not dampen libido. If anything, it gives it a boost.
>
> I would say that if you are married, definitely do not take SSRIs. That could ruin a marriage, especially if you ended up with permanent sexual dysfunction.
>
> Having said that, if the depression is so bad that you can't live your life anymore and SSRIs are the only options, then I guess one would have to take the SSRI, but hopefully only for the short term because of the sexual toxicity.
>
> Paul
Posted by fuchsia on November 15, 2007, at 7:30:25
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by sukarno on November 13, 2007, at 5:51:10
Hello Paul
I have a few questions for you if you don't mind answering.
How long have you been on the Stablon? I have seen quite a few of your posts about it.
When you went on it did you experience slow improvement over a long period of time or did the response plateau early? If the former when do you think you reached the full response?
How long had you been on the Stablon for when you felt you needed to increase the dose? Did you then regain the previous response for a while and if so how long did that last?
I've been on it for 2 1/2 months and I thought I was gradually getting a small to moderate effect. I am subject to frequent episodes of severe depression which last 1-2 weeks and I haven't had these since I went on the Stablon but unfortunately one just came on a couple of days ago.
Thanks.
fuchsia
Posted by sukarno on November 16, 2007, at 13:24:24
In reply to Re: Tianeptine long term and tolerance » sukarno, posted by fuchsia on November 15, 2007, at 7:30:25
Hi Fuchsia! :-)
I've been on Stablon since late March 2005. I began with 1 tablet taken three times daily. I noticed no effects until the 12th day and the effects were very much like a stimulant effect (similar to adrenaline), but no effects on my heart rate or rhythm. I also felt a throbbing headache similar to the type of headache you would get from abrupt caffeine withdrawal. I had to lower the dose for a few days and raise it (a lot of fine-tuning) until this went away.
The antidepressant effect began a few days after the stimulant/adrenaline-like started. It got better in the long-term. My mood improved, anxiety decreased and the headache disappeared. No more stimulant effects.
This beneficial effect on my mood continued for a month or two and then it seemed to lose some of its efficacy. My depression returned, but not as bad as it was prior to taking Stablon. I then raised the dosage to 1 tablet taken four times daily. Efficacy was restored and this lasted for a few months.
It slightly pooped out again and I didn't raise or lower the dose. Within one week, the depressive symptoms disappeared and efficacy was back to where it was before. It was once again working well. It could have been a rough time in my life.
I tried lowering the dose to 3 tablets/day and then finally 2 tablets/day. I had a panic attack or two (but nothing major in terms of anxiety)..along with a restless feeling like when you quit smoking. Depression began to return, but not severely as it was prior to beginning Stablon.I then raised the dose to 3 tablets/day and without having to wait more than a few days, efficacy was restored. Relief was rapid. I began to think Stablon could be habit-forming at this point and began to have dreams (Stablon, like all antidepressants and psychotropic drugs, can give you vivid dreams) about Stablon. I'd be in a shop in my dream and see boxes and bags of Stablon and that would be the focus of the dream. That happened a lot, but I wouldn't say Stablon is addictive, at least not for me. Habit-forming like smoking, possibly, but not as bad as smoking.
I did experience euphoria a few times when raising the dose or after the third or last dose of the day, but that did not happen often. In fact, that was rare.
To put it this way, I could not imagine a life without Stablon. Perhaps this is because it has helped me, but at the same time, if my funds were unlimited, I'd be tempted to keep raising the dose. Sorry, I didn't mean to give any bad PR about this medication. This is just how I feel. I also think that being on it for a long time makes it more difficult to reduce the dose. I did have cravings for it when I tapered. I think it might also trigger compulsive behavior, since it does modulate the D2/D3 (important here is the D3 dopamine receptor). I've felt the urge (strong urge) to go out and gamble, but I've never gambled in my life and never had those thoughts prior to this.
Interestingly, it seems to have reduced my urge to smoke. I'm a non-smoker and have been for 15 years, but the urge still bothers me. However, on Stablon it seems that the urge is lower. I'm not sure why. This could be because of Stablon's action on dopamine. Zyban works on dopamine too and helps to curb the urge to smoke.Whenever I did lower the dose for a while and went back to the original dose, I felt my mood restored in a very short time, which was great. There wasn't really much of a delay.
I've found 4 tablets a day to be the right dosage for me. Higher doses have not proved their usefulness. I've tried 2 tablets three times daily and felt little benefit from it. If anything I had some mild stomach pains that never occurred with the 3 or 4 tablet a day regimen.What is your dosage? In the clinical trials they were trying dosages of 25 to 75mg/day (2 to 6 tablets).
If you are on 3 tablets/day you could try increasing it to 4 tablets/day and be sure to space the dose 4 hours apart. 8am, noon, 4pm, 8pm
I've found that to work best for myself anyway. Everyone is different though.Four tablets a day doesn't seem to "poop out", unlike the 3 tablets/day regimen I was previously on. I've been taking 4 tables a day for 2 years.
It might take 2 or 3 months total for the full response.
Beware of any possible dependence. I feel this drug does have habit-forming potential. I never felt that imipramine or fluoxetine had this potential. This could be because it is short-acting and/or because of its action of dopamine, increasing its concentration in the nucleus accumbens (an area that other addictive drugs act on) and frontal cortex. It also accelerates/enhances the reuptake of serotonin, concentrating serotonin in different areas of the brain than other antidepressants.
There's some information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine
With all of that said, I think the benefits outweigh the risks of any dependence that may or may not form. Clearly I am better off than I was before I began taking Stablon and I've suffered from depression since 1987.Good luck to you and please keep us informed by posting here. :-)
Best wishes,
Paul
Posted by FredPotter on November 18, 2007, at 1:19:31
In reply to Dopamine lowers Serotonin and vice versa, posted by florence on November 15, 2007, at 0:11:09
My Dr failed to warn me of long term side effects of statin drugs. This is relevant since one of them is depression, plus painful muscles, difficulty in walking. That was a few years ago and these effects were not known then. However I still have 6 boxes left and not one contains the information slip. This is lax of the pharmacist I think. Do you think I should sue him?
Posted by fuchsia on November 18, 2007, at 5:52:50
In reply to Re: Tianeptine long term and tolerance, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2007, at 13:24:24
Hi Paul
I really appreciate your taking the time to post about your experience.
Like you I had to back down on my dose initially - I had bad headaches - but I crept it up to the 3 a day gradually and all side effects went away.
I'm currently keeping a mood graph to compare the amount of depression I get on Stablon to the amount I had without it. I will be pleased to have even a partial response as my problems have been very severe and very long term. I don't expect a miracle from just the one medicine although of course it would be nice.
At the moment I am on 4 tablets a day; I increased it from 3 six days ago and I am not too bad right now.
Like you I also could imagine continuing to increase the dose if it wasn't so expensive. I think I may feel better in the 2 or so hours after a dose but this could be just psychological. I also might be tempted to keep increasing the dose in the hope of a more complete response generally.
Overall I do have high hopes for some restoration of neuroplasticity - as per the pleasantly optimistic story on the drug company website. It's nice to have that vision in the back of my mind even if it is just a fairy tale. (And I really would prefer if no one jumped in to post about any inaccuracies (large or small)in that story please.)
Good luck to you also and I hope your positive results continuefuchsia
Posted by d0pamine on November 18, 2007, at 12:31:30
In reply to Re: Tianeptine long term and tolerance » sukarno, posted by fuchsia on November 18, 2007, at 5:52:50
>It's nice to have that vision in the back of my mind even if it is just a fairy tale.
Hope is good stuff.
Posted by kaleidoscope on November 18, 2007, at 16:59:57
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by sukarno on November 13, 2007, at 16:25:01
Hi Paul
>Perhaps I could try nortriptyline at a very minute dose.
You'd need a TCA that came as an oral solution. You could measure it with an oral syringe. Do you know which TCAs come as syrups where you are?
K
Posted by douglass on November 19, 2007, at 14:37:10
In reply to Re: No warning over side effects, posted by FredPotter on November 18, 2007, at 1:19:31
Dr's don't warn you of side effects of statins. One thing statins do is deplete your muscles of CoQ10 which is crucial in the mitochondria to make energy. This is especially true of the heart, so while statins are preventatives of heart disease, in the long run they produce cardiomyopathy by the depletion of CoQ10, which is a vit A co enzyme. I suggest anyone taking a statin drug to alsos take the coq10 :Ubiquinole" form as it is the most bioavailable form to take. About 50-100mg should do it, and you might find it will give you extra energy if your body is depleted of coq10.
You can find this out easy enough by googling a statin and read the research material.
douglass
Posted by mike_robertz on November 19, 2007, at 16:12:18
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by sukarno on November 12, 2007, at 7:40:17
> Hi Mike. :)
>
> Well, I began taking tianeptine for anxiety and depression, but I also have asthma and I believe it has reduced the frequency of my attacks. That said, if I am exposed to a potent allergen, I'll still have asthmatic symptoms.
>
> You can try taking 1/2 tablet twice a day, with the last dose no later than the afternoon. You can gradually increase the dose to the recommended 3 times a day regimen or as per your doctor's orders.
>
> Please keep us updated on your progress and post here again in a week or so. I'd like to see how your asthma is doing then. Hopefully it will improve even more.
>
> I'm still taking four tablets a day and have found that in the long term it has no negative effects on my sleep. I can take it at bedtime and have no problems. Rarely it can make me feel slightly drowsy, although I wouldn't say it is sedating. I'll take one and then feel like taking a nap. I then wake up feeling refreshed.
>
> If I increase the dosage, then certainly I'll wake up in the middle of the night unable to return to sleep. That's just a temporary side effect that should resolve in a week or two as your body adjusts.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Paul
Tianeptine definitely seems to improve my asthma - I am trying to keep the dose low to avoid side effects - I also suffer anxiety largely due I think to my asthma - I am considering taking 1/2 a tablet 3 times a day
- to be fair my sleep was bad before I started on
tianeptine - how long have you been taking it?
Posted by sukarno on November 19, 2007, at 16:27:58
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and asthma, posted by mike_robertz on November 19, 2007, at 16:12:18
That's great news. :-)
I think Dr. Lechin was on to something when he conducted that study in 1998 and found marked improvement in asthmatic patients.I've been taking tianeptine for 2 1/2 years (since March 2005).
Diet seems to be a factor too. I know a woman who used to be on prednisone and an inhaler, but after changing her diet to include lots of fresh fruits and vegetables (perhaps 2lbs a day of vegetables..amazing), her asthma symptoms decreased so much that she is no longer on prednisone and doesn't have to use her inhaler, except rarely.
Posted by florence on November 30, 2007, at 22:03:42
In reply to Re: No warning over side effects, posted by FredPotter on November 18, 2007, at 1:19:31
> My Dr failed to warn me of long term side effects of statin drugs. This is relevant since one of them is depression, plus painful muscles, difficulty in walking. That was a few years ago and these effects were not known then. However I still have 6 boxes left and not one contains the information slip. This is lax of the pharmacist I think. Do you think I should sue him?
---I have RARELY been advised of side effects. Melatonin can also cause depression; so can prednisone and hydrocortisone.
--- I doubt you could sue- statute of limitations s rather short ( 2 yrs??); just read Robert Whitaker's book "Mad in America". It cites a pathetic story of a woman withdrawn from lithium to cause an exacerbated-symptom research trial and she did not win the case. She had gone to the ER afraid of a manic episode occurring and was asked if she wanted to participate....etc etc. The consent form was obviously worded to mislead her... Anyway, she lost and was actually billed 15,000 dollars for the "care" she received in the ER/hospital.
--Bottom line: Do not take ANYTHING for granted when it comes to a tiny potent little pill.
I have been getting my medical records lately just because......I was appalled what I began to read when I demanded copies of my lab reports and dr visit summaries. Thyroid disease suspected in 1997- and never diagnosed til 2004. High cholesterol in 1997 And what do I read over and over and over again???? The 2nd leading cause of high cholesterol is THYROID DISEASE (diet is first). I'll shut up now....
Posted by halo on December 6, 2007, at 7:01:30
In reply to Re: Tianeptine long term and tolerance » sukarno, posted by fuchsia on November 18, 2007, at 5:52:50
Has Stablon helped anyone with irritability. Have just withdrawn off lexapro (after 8yrs)and my main symptoms of depression: irritability and anxiety have returned. My persona isn't as numb as it was on the lex, I feel more like my bubbley talkative self, lex is so numbing across the board of all emotions. Has Stablon helped anyone with the symptom of irritability?
Posted by fuchsia on December 6, 2007, at 8:02:05
In reply to Stablon Does It help Irritability + Impatience, posted by halo on December 6, 2007, at 7:01:30
All I can say is it didn't make it worse. I am on Lamictal as well and that mainly controls my irritability.
fuchsia
Posted by elanor roosevelt on December 12, 2007, at 22:08:02
In reply to Stablon Does It help Irritability + Impatience, posted by halo on December 6, 2007, at 7:01:30
I find that after a few weeks there is an increase in impatience
Posted by Madmaxx on July 14, 2008, at 18:33:02
In reply to Re: Tianeptine long term and tolerance, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2007, at 13:24:24
Hi community :)
I've read many (great) posts in this thread (thnx a lot for the input!!), but not all, so I'm not sure if it was posted before..
however there was a great article about Stablon in the Journal of Psychiatric Practice by Dr. Dr. Preskorn, that gives some very interesting information, I'd like to share: http://www.tianeptine.com/stablon-tianeptine.html
I have GAD, social anxiety disorder and mild depression and started Stablon today.. also tried many SSRIs, TCAs, Velafaxine, Mirtazapine, Milnacipran, even Neuroleptics and Xanax before.. SSRIs, Venlafaxine and Mirtazapine gave some noticeable effects but I really hated their side-effects (sexual and the disability to feel really good). Also I noticed some kind of emotional blunting.. very excited seeing how/if Stablon will work!
Best wishes to all of you who suffer from mental illnesses!
Posted by Marty on August 12, 2008, at 21:13:48
In reply to Re: Tianeptine long term and tolerance, posted by Madmaxx on July 14, 2008, at 18:33:02
Madmaxx-> How it went with Stablon ?
/\/\arty
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