![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 151 to 175 of 175. Go back in thread:
Posted by hiba on November 4, 2002, at 0:51:11
In reply to Re: Convinced At last ! » hiba, posted by Alan on November 3, 2002, at 16:28:40
Hello Alan,
Glad you are back in the forum once again.
Perhaps you might be wondering what my conviction is! It was just to state, the so called "protracted withdrawal" is mentioned in a renowned clinical manual. Still I didn't hesitate to reveal the doubtful nature of the given reference. Dr. Ashton's studies are being consistently challenged as they are mostly based on anecdotal evidences. "Martindale" professionals are very particular in collecting data from almost all available sources. That could be the reason.
"Protracted withdrawal syndrome" is still much controversial. Using a benzo in high doses for a considerably long period of time and stopping it abruptly may cause a longer than unusual withdrawal syndrome. This is arguably right. But such an usage and cessation is alien to clinical practice. Unsupervised usage of a drug and consequent complications are not an indicative of drug toxicity. Since we are discussing the medically supervised benzo usage, we have a better reason to neglect protracted withdrawal syndrome. It is not only how the drug treats you, it is how you treat the drug. If you want to abuse a drug, it shouldn't be a benzo or a narcotic. I have seen guys mixing phenergan(promethazine)with wine to augment the sedative high of the antihistamine.Benzophobia has done more than enough so far. Some practitioners were (or still?) prescribing hard antipsychotics to treat anxiety disorders because of the fear of benzo dependence. Once I got a prescription of Trazodone from an internist for sleeping problems. In PDR there is warning in block letter as "Trazodone is associated with priapism." Internist had justification. In low doses trazodone is safe. But many urologists believe drug induced priapism is not dose dependent. The reason for prescribing trazodone for sleep problems is its dissociation with dependence. But when the choice is an irreversible physical damage or a slight medical dependence, what makes sense is most important. That is all the fact about benzodiazepines.
Good luck Alan, Take care
HIBA
Posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2002, at 7:11:15
In reply to Re: Re: Klonopin as a dumb drug (Completely OFF T » Squiggles, posted by viridis on November 3, 2002, at 22:40:00
Kewoool!!!
Squiggles is the name of my cat;
:-)
Posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2002, at 7:15:26
In reply to Re: Convinced At last ! Welcome back Alan!, posted by hiba on November 4, 2002, at 0:51:11
In my case, my doctors were ready to give me
an additional, no a third antidepressant and
take away the benzo, WAYYY before the Benzo
group made any noise; i refused both, knowing
the benzo had caused inter-dose withdrawal,
asked for lowering of the Synthroid, and i have
never had a panic attack since.I'm just darn lucky, these doctors were so
nice and cooperated with me. Osler said
"listen to your patient, he is giving you the
diagnosis" and perhaps he rubbed off on them,
coming from the same neck of the woods;The point is, that the the practice you speak
of was there before the benzo noise.Squiggles
Posted by hiba on November 6, 2002, at 1:24:41
In reply to Re: Convinced At last ! Welcome back Alan! » hiba, posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2002, at 7:15:26
> In my case, my doctors were ready to give me
> an additional, no a third antidepressant and
> take away the benzo, WAYYY before the Benzo
> group made any noise; i refused both, knowing
> the benzo had caused inter-dose withdrawal,
> asked for lowering of the Synthroid, and i have
> never had a panic attack since.
>
> I'm just darn lucky, these doctors were so
> nice and cooperated with me. Osler said
> "listen to your patient, he is giving you the
> diagnosis" and perhaps he rubbed off on them,
> coming from the same neck of the woods;
>
> The point is, that the the practice you speak
> of was there before the benzo noise.
>
> Squiggles
So Dear Squiggles,Do you think that practice is anyway right ? What is more affordable to a patient? A slight medical dependence or call it addiction or an irreversible physical damage ?
Still you can argue a physical damage could be the root of physiological dependence. But anyway it is reversible. Consider it short term or protracted, the symptoms will resolve over time and only a person with an underlying disorder will find it hard to come off benzos completely. "The fault here is not in our stars, but in ourselves"
But the case of APs or ADs are not the same. APs can cause "tardive dyskinesia" which is irreversible. ADs cause significant pschological dependence, that a patient seldom reaches pre-drug level once he is familiarized with Antidepressants. In my experience SSRIs are the worst in this regard. I don't feel depressed anymore, but when I try to come off prozac, it is not depression that comes back, but a hollow-feeling which I hate most.
HIBA
Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 7:22:43
In reply to Re: Convinced At last ! Welcome back Alan! » Squiggles, posted by hiba on November 6, 2002, at 1:24:41
Hiba,
You are absolutely correct in my view-- between
medical addiction and irreversible damage, the former
is to be preferred; but you do not take into account
the starting point of addiction, the dose, and the
length of time ( could be a lifetime ) and also the
type of drug.As you say some drugs are different than others;
whether benzos or ADs, what is to be done--leave
the person on the drug despite the possible adverse
effects or take him off?I think the problem is not that he SHOULD not come
off but that the drs. do not know HOW to get him off--
they need a psychopharmacologist or addictionologist to
do it.This is not something new - many people died of
barbiturates in the 40s and 50s and many
alcoholics needs special care to be detoxed.As for the irreversibility problem, I am not so sure
that the same severity of damage cannot be done with
benzos as well as ADs - though i sympathize with
your nasty "hollow" feeling - sounds like depression
without a cause;Psychopharmacology is an art.
Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 6, 2002, at 7:55:43
In reply to Re: Convinced At last ! Welcome back Alan! » hiba, posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 7:22:43
I am not so sure
> that the same severity of damage cannot be done with
> benzos as well as ADs
> Squiggles
=============================================http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4201752,00.html
Please note the two paragraphs about the comparative stastical rate of complaint between the two types of drugs re: withdrawal.
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 8:44:57
In reply to Withdrawal...AD's vs. bzds » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 6, 2002, at 7:55:43
Alan,
I think "convinced at last" is meant to
refer to "the protracted syndrome" debate by
Hiba.Anyway, yes I have seen this article before
actually. The problem is (not so much for me
as i am sucker for sufferring people) that many
ADs have their very own private law firm for
particular drugs now; i kid you not. This
may be viewed with a very cynical eye.
For as true and convincing as these SSRI reports
may be, the "other" side, for whatever reasons
may use statistical artillary--e.g. "but 66% of
my patients who have taken this drug have not
killed their child, cat, dog, parrot, etc."As for the initial disease cropping up, how
ironic that the very same argument has been
used in the benzo debate. And really quite
poor at that, as it seem ubiquitous with any
product that is viewed as causally responsible
for an adverse effect. I think that a
comparison between before and after mental states
IS the correct reply to that, as Dr. Healy points
out here.I know someone personally, who took an SSRI for
a very short period of time. I think time taken
is very important (is it possible that brain changes
take place with repeated dosage?); and finding it
very agitating and disagreeable, was weaned off over
a month i believe. I don't think there have been
any problems.However, one should consider the initial
state of the person taking say PROZAC - which is what
this person took: if the person is in a depressed AND
agitated condition with severe anxiety the effect of
PROZAC may be very different from someone say in
something more catatonic.It seems that all these drugs have quick and profound
brain changes. I know that the discoverer of PROZAC
actually won the Nobel prize, and much was made
of his homely background (just a country boy making
good, etc. etc.) and I wonder if his mentors and
colleagues just didn't get a little too romantic.Of course, there is another problem with new drugs..
all new drugs... to see the effect on humans rather
that experimental animals, required a few years if not
decades. Perhaps the very obvious and fast observations
of SSRIs are a blessing in disguise, as new drugs
are now replacing them.Regarding the comparison to benzos... I can't say really;
certainly you do not hear of such rage, leading to
murders, suicides, but there is rage enough to account
for airplaine rage, and car rage, and possibly domestic
rage; the thing with benzos, is that in cases of
panic and agitation resulting from inter-dose withdrawal,
there is the dubious advantage of being able to pop
another pill. You can't do that with SSRIs.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 6, 2002, at 18:46:16
In reply to Re: Withdrawal...AD's vs. bzds » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 8:44:57
> Alan,
>
> I think "convinced at last" is meant to
> refer to "the protracted syndrome" debate by
> Hiba.Yes, and I throughly addressed that in an earlier post.
> Regarding the comparison to benzos... I can't say really;
> certainly you do not hear of such rage, leading to
> murders, suicides, but there is rage enough to account
> for airplaine rage, and car rage, and possibly domestic
> rage; the thing with benzos, is that in cases of
> panic and agitation resulting from inter-dose withdrawal,
> there is the dubious advantage of being able to pop
> another pill. You can't do that with SSRIs.
>
> Squiggles
==========================================
Interdose withdrawals are demonstrative of having not kept steady state levels to begin with. Otherwise it's a case of simple mismangement or lack of understanding about the usage of the medication by the patient...not to mention longer half-life versions available to both physician and consumer alike. It is really no more complicated than that.The key disadavantage about the AD's is that they work in a completely different way and work over the longer term. That is why many augment with bzds since the activating or agitating effect of being so stimulatd by AD's is in need of an antidote.
What's dubious is the acceptance by government agencies (the FDA comes to mind) of AD's for anxiety disorder in the first place with the co's admitted test results in the 30 - 50% efficacy range and bzds far, far above that.
There is a life cycle for newly introduced drugs (or many new products) that the ssri's are beginning to see whiplash from overprescription now just like valium suffered from in the late 60's and early 70's.
Unfortunately, it's not the patients that never recovered from the overuse and overprescriptions of these drugs...quite the contrary. Far more damaging are the lingering misperceptions and pure stigmatising baloney still seized on by the anti-bzd movment...that which unnecessarily scares off potential candidates for bzd therapy due to these misperceptions.
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 20:16:48
In reply to Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 6, 2002, at 18:46:16
That's very astute Alan; i think i agree with
most of what you say. I have said it before
that benzos if prescribed correctly and
appropriately, are efficacious and safe--but
i think that has not been done in so many
cases.Also, the augmentation of a benzo with an AD
which creates anxiety is a good idea, but then
you must choose the right one, and you must
monitor the co-existence of the two drugs.Infact, you could argue that many PROZAC and other
SSRI cases were tragic because of the lack
of an addiction of a tranquillizing drug, like
a benzo.Squiggles
Posted by Franz on November 6, 2002, at 21:00:08
In reply to More on glycine/GABA » Franz, posted by viridis on November 3, 2002, at 14:54:15
Thanks for the followup viridis
I already swalloed my first klono 0.25mg more than an hour ago. I am not sure what I feel, like a mild sedation maybe, I am not fully alert, but I was also tired, so I can´t tell. The effect seems different than from Xanax.
The doctor told me to take 2 doses of 0.25mg/day, morning, evening. I wonder if I can take less, like 0.12 twice or 0.25/day. I will keep taking a dose at day.
I see I am very resistant to take anythig, but I expect some benefit.
I think you are right rgarding precursors, they can work sometimes (I like B vitamins, aminoacids, etc) but when there is a regulation problem precursors can not work well enough.
I read you can use GABA under the tong, also there are nasal sprays (not sure if with GABA exactly).
In phobias an anxiety I read there is a problem with the noradrenergic system.
I think I will quit here and go to sleep, I can´t elaborate much now and feel sleepy.
Do yuo think 0.12mg is too slow a dose?. I will ask the doctor next week.
I have to ask how much alcohol (wine, beer) I can take.
> Hi Franz,
>
> I was curious about your question regarding glycine, so I did a little more investigating, since my previous answer was just speculative. I'm not an expert on neurophysiology, but I am a biologist (different area of research), so these things get me interested. I've only done a quick scan of the available information, but here's what I've found so far.
>
> First a bit of background -- glycine is an amino acid. Amino acids are the "building blocks" of proteins, and there are 20 different ones that are linked together in different combinations to make different proteins. Then there are others that aren't used to make proteins, but play other roles in the body. Glycine is one of the "non-essential" amino acids, meaning that although it's very important, it can be synthesized in the body from other amino acids (particularly serine). So, it's unlikely that a person would be deficient in glycine unless they have an extremely protein-deficient diet. Contrary to my earlier speculation, glycine crosses the blood-brain barrier easily.
>
> Some amino acids also act as neurotransmitters, chemicals that carry messages from one nerve cell to another. They're released from one cell and bind to a specific receptor on the membrane of another cell, which in turn causes various changes in that cell (these can include how the receiving cell sends chemical messages to yet other cells). Glycine is one of the neurotransmitter amino acids. Another is GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid). GABA is synthesized in the brain from another amino acid, glutamate, and there seems to be some argument about whether GABA can cross the blood-brain barrier and if so, how easily.
>
> The effects of neurotransmitters vary depending on which cell receives them, and there can be various ways in which the process can work abnormally -- not enough or too much of a given neurotransmitter may be released, the receptors for the neurotransmitter on receiving cells can be faulty or too few in number, or the cell may respond abnormally to the neurotransmitter.
>
> With respect to clonazepam, it and other benzodiazepines appear to work primarily by enhancing the binding of GABA to specific receptors on certain brain cells. GABA has a "damping" effect on the excitability of these cells by controlling the flow of ions across the membrane (especially chloride ion in the case of GABA receptors affected by benzos) . Various conditions (including epilepsy and excessive anxiety/panic) appear to result from overexcitability of these cells, perhaps due to flaws in the GABA receptors. By enhancing the affinity of the GABA receptors for GABA, benzos correct this problem.
>
> I'm not sure where glycine fits into this; there is some mention of clonazepam also acting like glycine as a neurotransmitter, but most of the literature I've looked at so far focuses on clonazepam's interaction with a particular subtype of GABA receptor.
>
> There are lots of commercial sites that promote oral glycine and GABA as treatments for anxiety, and who knows -- maybe that could work for some people. But given the ready availability of glycine in the diet, the body's ability to make more, and the questions about whether oral GABA can even get into the brain, I'm skeptical. On top of that, if the problem lies with the receptors for these substances, I'm not sure that flooding the brain with more of them would help much anyway. This is speculation on my part, but I have tried taking oral GABA in the past and never noticed any effect.
>
> Anyway, that's what I've pieced together so far. Good luck with your treatment!
>
> Viridis
>
>
Posted by Alan on November 6, 2002, at 21:16:29
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 20:16:48
> Infact, you could argue that many PROZAC and other
> SSRI cases were tragic because of the lack
> of an addiction of a tranquillizing drug, like
> a benzo.
>
> Squiggles
============================================
Typo, right? You meant "addition" not "addiction".
Very Freudian.Alan
Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 21:27:23
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 6, 2002, at 21:16:29
Touche; and I thought I was immune to that stuff;
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 8:00:33
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2002, at 21:27:23
Alan,
Something I forgot to tell you in the past,
which may round out the picture for your
regarding benzo prescription. When I successfully
got off Xanax, my doctor congratulated me
for accomplishing something very difficult, and
good for me. Though this was not the case
for Rivotril, i was given free reign to attempt
it. Unfortunately, it did not work. The point
of course is that doctors are aware of the
pernicious effects of benzos and unfortunate
job they have of prescribing on a continuous basis.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 7, 2002, at 14:13:05
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 8:00:33
> Alan,
>
> Something I forgot to tell you in the past,
> which may round out the picture for your
> regarding benzo prescription. When I successfully
> got off Xanax, my doctor congratulated me
> for accomplishing something very difficult, and
> good for me. Though this was not the case
> for Rivotril, i was given free reign to attempt
> it. Unfortunately, it did not work. The point
> of course is that doctors are aware of the
> pernicious effects of benzos and unfortunate
> job they have of prescribing on a continuous basis.
>
> Squiggles
==========================================
I'm sure that the real good ones are also aware of the long term effect of un or under treated anxiety on the psyche and the physical body...many all too obvious to list here.
The best of doctors always assess the benefit/risk ratio with all of their individual patients in the ideal world.The problem is that in a world representing reality (a world coming up quite short of that ideal), drugs are misprescribed, patients are mis dx'd, and patients are not followed up on throughly by physicians - those that in contrast know their patients AND their medications intimately (well the patients not too intimately, that's a whole different subject).
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 14:24:54
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 7, 2002, at 14:13:05
Yeah, well you have to look at things in
perspective; no doubt you are affluent and
living in some place like Rhode Island.
Here, in Canada we have public health care,
which means everyone gets treated (though
not so intimately as you might like), and
given the sparse population of the country
and the high taxation, you can't expect
the Hollywood treatment you can get in
the States.Look around you.. look at Israel and Palestine,
look at the third world countries, children are
dying hardly before they're born from diseases,
AIDS is an epidemic, get real.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 7, 2002, at 15:01:12
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 14:24:54
> Look around you.. look at Israel and Palestine,
> look at the third world countries, children are
> dying hardly before they're born from diseases,
> AIDS is an epidemic, get real.
>
> Squiggles
===============================================
Huh? Get Real? I feel insulted and put down.I don't understand what that has to do with the point of my last post which was that untreated anxiety has many serious consequences than the side effects of bzds in the vast majority of cases.
???
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 15:08:33
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 7, 2002, at 15:01:12
I don't *have* anxiety; I *never* had anxiety;
i *got* anxiety by taking Xanax, and being
given a too high dose of Synthroid. Anxiety
is gone now *bye bye* because I got off the
Xanax and the Synthroid was lowered (though
the latter is hypothetical in its contribution);
The medical vogue of prescribing benzos for
everything under the sun screwed up a lot of
people royally.I have not had ONE panic attack since getting
off Xanax. I wouldn't doubt that if a specialist
in pharmacology got me off all my drugs, i would
not feel anything at all, except health.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 7, 2002, at 18:16:54
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 15:08:33
> I don't *have* anxiety; I *never* had anxiety;
> i *got* anxiety by taking Xanax, and being
> given a too high dose of Synthroid. Anxiety
> is gone now *bye bye* because I got off the
> Xanax and the Synthroid was lowered (though
> the latter is hypothetical in its contribution);
> The medical vogue of prescribing benzos for
> everything under the sun screwed up a lot of
> people royally.
>
> I have not had ONE panic attack since getting
> off Xanax. I wouldn't doubt that if a specialist
> in pharmacology got me off all my drugs, i would
> not feel anything at all, except health.
>
> Squiggles
=========================================
Oh. How does that explain the "get real" comment?Synthroid in the wrong dosage is well documented in the literature as causing anxiety or hyperstimulation /hyperarousal of the autonomic nervous sysem while xanax does not. The misdiagnosis and mismanagement (short of just one of those that has a bad reaction in the first place to a drug in general) is the main reason why one hears about panic coming from a drug like xanax...mainly from withdrawal in an unsupervised or ill advised dosage regime....but then one can have a paradoxical reaction to any drug, not just bzds.
If you were prescribed xanax for something other than an anxiety disorder like to counteract the synthroid miscalculations then I can see how one would conclude that xanax was the culprit while one was just trying to counteract the synthoid hyperstimulation.
Yes, overprescription for everything for ANY drug (as in ssris) fits part of the drug life cycle of drugs in general, not just bzds. Bzds started over 30 years ago, ssri's, 10.
What makes you conclude that being off of all medication altogether would return you to feel anything but health?
Curious,
Alan
Posted by BrittPark on November 7, 2002, at 19:24:15
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 15:08:33
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Xanax and am glad you're feeling better off it. However, if Xanax was the cause of your anxiety you were just one of the unlucky who had a paradoxical reaction to a medication. I don't know what the numbers are precisely but I doubt that more than 1 in 100 people have paradoxical reactions to benzos. Most people just get relief from anxiety. Others get at worst no effect.
Be well,
Britt
Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 19:32:41
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 7, 2002, at 18:16:54
Sorry, regarding "get real", what I meant was
that one cannot expect perfection because there
are many demands on the medical resources in the
world.I will step lightly here as my memory may be wrong,
but I believe that the Xanax was prescribed POST
the Synthroid, which in view of the present reduction
(from 0.155 to 0.112) may have caused panic. I am
well aware of the effects of too much thyroxine,
as i had a severe reaction (palpitation, sweats,
1 hr. sleep per night, horrible anxiety, etc. etc.)
when they were trying to adjust me and gave me 0.175
after a year of taking none at all; if you are
a med person you can imagine the effect of that.However, anxiety ALSO appeared with panic for many
years inter-dose Xanax dosing, which means that i
was getting tolerance. Part of the problem was that
for about 7 years I was on a tiny dose 0.50 and then
maybe at max 1.0 and later when things got rough
i sneaked to 1.5 or 2.0 occasionally.When I complained about panic (often) the cause
was not known. As i said they wanted to give me
Celexa, but I insisted that I had to get off
XANAX, and that
I had to get the Synthroid lowered too. Both
worked - both were responsible. I have a feeling
that the whole picture was murky and it is easy
to understand how polypharmacy like this can
make things difficult to unravel.The Rivortril on the other hand was truly a nightmare,
and I believe i should have been taken off with
Valium or carbanezam [sp?] - as i had a seizure.What makes me think I would be better off without
drugs? The fact that I had never shown any signs
of manic depression, and that I became very ill
with strange and unusual symptoms for me (including
panic attacks) in the duration of taking Valium;
At the time I took Valium for exam jitters, I was
not being watched; I hypothesize that I may have
withdrawn when the prescription ran out and presented
with severe psychiatric symptoms. I was quite
sick (depressed, hypersexual, anxious, constipated,
disoriented, etc.).I had a breakdown (very strange) -- it felt like
i was regressing, crying and not sleeping for a week.
That's when they gave me something to sleep, and then
prescribed lithium--which worked. But it could have
worked on Valium withdrawal.That's my reasoning. If I am wrong, either way
I am lucky as lithium is a very good drug. BTW
I have asked what the effect is on normals, in case
there has been a misdiagnosis; interesting that
it does not change people that much--just mellows
out anyone's mood.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2002, at 20:26:11
In reply to Re: Benzodiazapines and drug life cycles » Squiggles, posted by BrittPark on November 7, 2002, at 19:24:15
Hi Britt,
By "paradoxical" what is meant i suppose,
is "unexpected". Moreover, paradoxical to
what is expected of a benzo, i.e. calming
effect, anxiolytic properties -- but those
are exactly reversed upon withdrawal and that
is why they appear "paradoxical".I think that the variables
of *dose*, *time taken*, *discontinuation
abruptness*, and *kind* of benzo should be
taken into account before making a general
conclusion about their effect as a class.I do fear that a flippant observation
of withdrawal syndrome in benzos, may lead
to mistakes in diagnosis, and further complications
which are misunderstood.Though you may be right, that exceptional circumstances
will affect the medical picture, i hope you will
consider the many addiction books which talk about
the myriad symptoms of withdrawal--some quite
serious indeed. I think we have gone over some
texts here and there is no use in beating a dead
horse.Squiggles
Posted by lil spunk2003 on May 13, 2003, at 2:19:24
In reply to Lou's reply to Dinah's post » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 18, 2002, at 19:38:34
HI,
I hope someone can help, I need to know how long Klonipin stays in your system and if anybody knows how to get it out quicker
Thsi very very important, somebody please reply
Posted by Franz on July 21, 2007, at 18:40:53
In reply to Re: Hydergine » Alan, posted by Rick on October 26, 2002, at 16:31:03
> Just started it about ten days ago. Take 3mg/day of generic ergoloid mesylates. That's the max recommended by the FDA; my pdoc says he's gone as high as 6 mg. I know in Europe it's typically given in higher doses, e.g. 9 mg/day.
>
> It's too early to report any results. I've noticed some mild improvement in memory, and some added "calm alertness," but at such an early stage these could very well be coincidences/placebo effects -- although I certainly hope it's a sign that the med is starting to work for me. If indeed it works, the effects of hydergine are said to be quite gradual. I sure haven't experienced any side effects, other than some barely-noticeable nausea at first and less-variable blood pressure (a good thing).
>
> At the moment the only other psychotropic med I'm on is my mainstay daily Klonopin (1 mg, all first thing in a.m.), for non-depressive social phobia.
>
> I'll report back as the experiment continues.
>
> Rick
>
> > How do you use hydergine? and what has it done for you re: your dx. I take Klon maint. and ativan PRN for breakthrough with GAD and SAD.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Alan
>
>Very interesting. I believe I also feel the "calm alertness" you mention. Maybe the alpha adrenergic blockade thing?. Problem is that I am taking other "supplements".
Slept very well the night I took hydergine in the eceving and a small dose benzo at bedtime.
All subjective, but one can feel this drug is active, doing something I need to clarify.
Posted by Jeroen on July 29, 2007, at 7:26:56
In reply to Re: Hydergine, posted by Franz on July 21, 2007, at 18:40:53
hi there, as what i read it starts to work after 2-3 weeks and results after 6-8 weeks
i wanted to take this for my blepharospasms, it seems to be able to correct the D2 is some people and reverse writers block...
at 4.5 mg, i am not sure i will try this, i need a doctor
Posted by Franz on July 29, 2007, at 7:39:09
In reply to Re: Hydergine, posted by Jeroen on July 29, 2007, at 7:26:56
> hi there, as what i read it starts to work after 2-3 weeks and results after 6-8 weeks
>
> i wanted to take this for my blepharospasms, it seems to be able to correct the D2 is some people and reverse writers block...
>
> at 4.5 mg, i am not sure i will try this, i need a doctor
Hi Jeroen, I did not know hydergine was used for blepharospasms (honestly I don´t know much about blepharospasms either, what´s the cause?. like a tic? or is it a nerve conduction problem?).Yes 4.5 mg can be too much to start. I get head discomfort (i also take some supplements that can be involved).
I would start with half a tablet one or twice a day or 1/4 tablet sublingual (I tried regular tablets this way and it works).
Of course the advice of a doctor is good.
If you don´t have extreme low pressure, some venous problems I think it is safe. You can search for side effects or I can tell from the insert if you want.
This is the end of the thread.
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