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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
Hi,
I'm 21 years old and since the age of about 14 I would say I have been suffering some kind of mental health issues, its extremely cloudy trying to remember back all that time but I do remember feeling amazingly tired and sleeping all day off school for days. At the same kind of time I remember I really wasn't happy at school and was bullied and therefore probably quite anxious. I have also really never got on with my dad at home and I assume it was sometime around the age of 14 or before that I realised that I was gay and so that was another thing that I had to hide from my parents and kids at school. I was also quite isolated and spend most of my time alone.
Anyway my current symptoms which I believe are the same as I have pretty much for all this time without much variation are; I'm always quite tired and when I wake after a good nights sleep I still feel tired. I can sometimes end up sleeping for maybe 10 or 11 hours but usually its about 8. As I said I feel in a dream-like state, like I'm looking at the world through a bubble or a cloud I'm here and now but somehow removed from the world - derealisation. Terrible lack of concentration, and motivation, terrible memory. I'm also quite anxious and find it very hard to socialise and relax in social situations, I do avoid them and feel quite anxious just being around other people although my symptoms I guess are quite mental - I feel trapped, become panicked, I also get some physical symptoms.
Over the past several years I have tried Fluoxetine, Lustral, (I think I may of tried other SSRIs after this possibly Paroxetine) I don't feel any of these made any difference to how I felt and definitely didn't help with the derealisation symptoms.
Then more recently I attended the Depersonalisation clinic in London and was prescribed a course of Escitalopram with Lamotrigine after that failed to work it was followed by Escitalopram with Clonazepam which also didn't work. I'm not sure if it was one or both of these treatments but I felt incredibly groggy and wasn't able to function and after giving them a fair trial in the Doctors opinion treatment was discontinued.
Within the past few months I saw a Psychiatrist locally and was recently diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I tried Liothryonine for a several weeks which had no effect and am currently on Phenelzine. I was started on 45MG and strangely when I said I was feeling crap and actually feeling more drowsy, groggy with less energy, not leaving home at all, just wanted to sleep until it was gone the dose was upped to 60MG a day which unsurprisingly didn't help. After being on this dose for another week I decided to half the dose to 30MG and try and stop this medication and thats where I am now. I am not particularly happy taking antidepressants and feel that most of them seem to try and numb the situation where I really want the opposite! Admittedly I have only been on the MAOI for approximately 5 to 6 weeks at the 45MG dose but I really couldn't handle feeling that bad.
I wondered about trying some kind of stimulant or possibly amphetamine based medication I know this will obviously not help with the anxiety side of things but right now I have just had no motivation and been failing to attend uni or feel I could do anything really would this be a sensible thing to look into? Can you suggest anything else?
Thankyou for reading all this and I hope someone can help!
Posted by stargazer2 on July 8, 2007, at 13:31:13
In reply to MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
BM...
Perhaps a stimulating AD like wellbutrin will be better for you than anything sedating. I think Parnate has an energizing effect too, where nardil (phenelazine), tends to help the more anxious.I recently stated nardil, 7 weeks now and recently added Wellbutrin although it is countraindicated. I am feeling less lethargic on this. Also, the doctors stressed trying to exercise despite my tiredness and that seems to be helping too. Small baby steps to satrt was all I could do but I was getting fat and losing more energy becasue I couldn't muster up the energy to do much of anything.
Most doctors will not prescribe wellbutrin or stimulants with nardil unless they are extremely well versed in the interactions of MAOI's with other meds. Most docs aren't.
The only other thing would be to try a stimulant with another AD, perhaps wellbutrin, if you need both. Wellbutrin alone might be enough to get you out of your severe bout of whatever they are calling it, CFS or depression.
Good luck....Stargazer
Posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 14:17:45
In reply to Re: MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by stargazer2 on July 8, 2007, at 13:31:13
argh... after reading some of the other posts regarding phenelzine and how it suddenly kicked in after being on 60MG or more a day I'm a bit worried I'm going to miss out on some wonderful drug but at the same time I really couldn't handle it. I guess the difference in symptoms between me and most other people chatting about it make a difference - Although I suffer from anxiety and am terrible in social situations I'm not sure if I'm particularly that bad and compared to other problems like poor concentration, brain fog and lack of energy I guess the latter are effecting me much worse... but I'm really not sure hopefully I will get some more advise on all this to clarify things :)
Thanks!
Posted by F00TBALL on July 8, 2007, at 16:27:09
In reply to MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
Some people have to all the way up to 90 MG to get the benefit.
Yeah, the side-effects suck, but they do away in time.
Posted by FredPotter on July 8, 2007, at 16:36:14
In reply to Re: MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please, posted by F00TBALL on July 8, 2007, at 16:27:09
Bournemouth I was reading a web page on depersonalisation and derealisation where they said that for some mysterious reason they respond best to the MAOI Marplan. I expect you'll have the same issues with side effects though.
Fred
Posted by Sentience on July 9, 2007, at 0:33:03
In reply to MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
Throughout school days I also had great difficulty fitting in, and I can relate to many of the things you described also, except that I'm heterosexual.
The good news is that I found that when I commenced on Phenelzine, 45 mg/day within 2 weeks the energising effect had kicked in. I also noted that besides knocking the depression on the head, I had suddenly lost apprehension in social situations.
However, this was with the original formulation of Nardil, the manufacturers changed ownership & then they changed the formulation back in 2003. Since then I have had to discontinue using Nardil, but the good news is that I'm doing better now than on the inferior version of Nardil.
Unfortunately, had you access to the original Nardil formulation you may have found some relief from the terrible symptoms I'm sure you must be experiencing. My advice would be to persevere with the Nardil for a little while longer, and if that still gives no symptomatic relief, perhaps try Parnate or the Marplan if you can find it.
Posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 8:46:44
In reply to Re: MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please, posted by F00TBALL on July 8, 2007, at 16:27:09
As soon as I went up to 60 mgs my anxiety kicked into high gear. I've been popping ativan like candy. Did you have anxiety when you got to like 60 or 75 mgs? I'm in a total panic and it's awful. I was fine up until now. It's been 1 week on 60 mgs. Please tell me this ends.
Thanks,
brooke
Posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 8:49:58
In reply to Re: MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please, posted by FredPotter on July 8, 2007, at 16:36:14
DP/DR are my main symptoms. Can you tell me where you read that? I'm having terrible anxiety on 60 mgs of nardil and it's scaring me. I really wanted this to work. Did you experience anxiety on the higher doses?
brooke
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2007, at 16:49:13
In reply to fred, posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 8:49:58
I thought that nardil was great for anxiety. At least that's what I was told. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on July 9, 2007, at 18:46:16
In reply to fred, posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 8:49:58
I can't remember where I read that about Marplan I'm afraid, but here is the best web page I know on the subject
The passage in italics is just like I wrote it. It's a bit scary but I had depersonalisation etc (all that stuff about stage scenery is spot-on for me) part the way into my Nardil treatment, but it was followed by a long-lasting feeling of contentment and peace. I hope the same for you. It seems Nardil requires the jumping of many hurdles to reach the peace that lies beyond. That's what it was like for me anyway
Fred
Posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 19:33:21
In reply to Re: fred, posted by FredPotter on July 9, 2007, at 18:46:16
Thanks for the link. I think I can take this anxiety for maybe one more week and then it's back to 45 mgs. I did not have this experience the first time I tried nardil.
brooke
Posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 19:34:31
In reply to Re: Thought, posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2007, at 16:49:13
Me too. I didn't have anxiety when I took it 10 years ago so I don't know what's going on. I took about 10 ativan in 3 days and that's not normal for me.
brooke
Posted by steel on July 10, 2007, at 5:33:01
In reply to Re: fred, posted by brooke484 on July 9, 2007, at 19:33:21
> Thanks for the link. I think I can take this anxiety for maybe one more week and then it's back to 45 mgs. I did not have this experience the first time I tried nardil.
>
> brookeYou might have been lucky enough to have used the old nardil then,which from TONS of reading seemed to have been a GOLD STANDERD for many,i kick myself,no pzifer for not having it available now
Posted by brooke484 on July 10, 2007, at 9:37:00
In reply to Re: fred, posted by steel on July 10, 2007, at 5:33:01
I did take the old nardil back in 96. This time around I'm having a lot of side effects and I might not be able to continue. Right now I'm lightheaded, anxious and my heart is pounding. Not a very pleasant feeling. Time for another ativan. :(
brooke
Posted by deniseuk190466 on July 11, 2007, at 15:35:29
In reply to MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
Bournemouth,
I take it that's where you are from in the UK? :-)
I know exactly how you feel, when SSRIs really work then they make you feel less anxious, more motivated, more alive, more emotional (in a good way) when they don't work properly then they make you feel like you have felt on them. I know because I have had both types of reaction to them.
I also like you (this time round) went on Nardil and it made me feel exactly as you describe. Infact I tried it about three times. the first time I felt sort of stoned on it, the third time, more relaxed but even more depressed. Doesn't make sense does it, how can an antidepressant make you feel more depressed.
Anyway, I feel for you because you are only young and you sound so nice, sensible and grounded.
I would do as some of the others have suggested and maybe try stimulants, also I have found Zyprexa very good in helping me with anxiety and actually a small amount now and again can make you feel like you've slept soundly and less tired.
I think constant tension/anxiety (althouh maybe not severe) because it's constant and relentless can make you feel exhausted, listless and apathetic.
I hope you find something soon.Denise
Posted by linkadge on July 12, 2007, at 11:24:36
In reply to MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
Hey, I am in a similar situation. Not a lot of meds work for me. I have some depersonalization as well. There aren't really a lot of meds with proven anti-depersonalization effects. Sometimes antidepressants can make depersonalization worse.
I wish I could come out of the closet, but its not safe around here, (this only makes things worse)
Take care, I hope you find releif.
Linkadge
Posted by FredPotter on July 12, 2007, at 16:57:37
In reply to Re: MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by linkadge on July 12, 2007, at 11:24:36
Linkadge I found information somewhere that about 50% of d-people respond to Marplan, for some unaccountable reason. The rest of the time depersonalisation and derealisation sufferers feel their symptoms are too weird to report so end up taking SSRIs which don't really help
Fred
Posted by steel on July 13, 2007, at 8:53:04
In reply to steel, posted by brooke484 on July 10, 2007, at 9:37:00
> I did take the old nardil back in 96. This time around I'm having a lot of side effects and I might not be able to continue. Right now I'm lightheaded, anxious and my heart is pounding. Not a very pleasant feeling. Time for another ativan. :(
>
> brookeIm sorry,please google nardil/anxiety community,u might have been there,but its a board entirly of nardil use,and how to help it work better,archive it,youll find many many users in ur exact spot,i deal with the same issue,trying to make parnate become active again,adding god knows what to do this,,and putting myself in icu trying.
But i will not personaly go back to ssris,i just cant/wont.
Posted by Sentience on July 13, 2007, at 9:26:23
In reply to Re: steel, posted by steel on July 13, 2007, at 8:53:04
Here's the Anxiety Board link with reference to Nardil
http://www.anxietyhelp.org/treatment/medication/nardil.html
Hope this helps :o)
Posted by KayeBaby on July 14, 2007, at 1:48:07
In reply to Re: MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please, posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 14:17:45
ask your Dr. if you could, please have some provigil, at least.
Your symptoms sound like cfs or narcolepsy.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by bournemouth on August 6, 2007, at 4:50:06
In reply to MAOI (Phenelzine) not working - advise please :), posted by bournemouth on July 8, 2007, at 12:38:40
Hi,
The Phenelzine didn't really agree with me and just felt more spaced out and drowsy probably before I could sustain a therapeutic dose for long enough (45mg was managed for weeks but 60mg only days)
Anyway I don't know what led me to look into ADD but is it possible that atleast some of my symptoms could be caused by some form of ADD?
After trying to do some work yesterday I realised how much concentration and organisation was such a major problem to me - I couldn't actually concentrate enough to complete anything, I tried moving on to something else but again I struggled to maintain motivation and concentration. I tried to plan it and work in a different manner but the harder I tried the more impossible it felt. I try and try but I just end up frustrated and don't have much energy or motivation to start with.
I have had to repeat a year at uni twice because I just can't manage to concentrate on the work. I never get there on time - I don't know why I'm late I just always manage to handle time management so badly. I don't really take anything in at lectures I'm just so dreamy and tired and even if I try and concentrate it just doesn't sink in. The same with reading.. I can force myself to read for a bit and I understand the information but none of it actually goes in. I try everything to learn things but nothing sticks :(
could my feeling of "derealisation" really just be a feature of ADD?
I have a feeling of constant tiredness and dreamy, drowsy state like I'm in a bubble kind of one step removed from the real world. I also feel very fatigued and tired constantly - doing housework, going to the gym seem impossible most of the time. A psychiatrist diagnosed this as CFS although I have no pain or other related symptoms that I believe CFS commonly presents.
This really scares me and I don't know if I can handle existing like this - the fear of spending my life feeling like this scares me!
As for childhood symptoms... well my mum hasn't been too helpful about this and I feel in a daze like just here and now - my memory doesn't really exist - so remembering childhood for myself isn't helpful. However I was always really quiet, shy, wouldn't even answer the register at school when I first started. Was apparently happier playing alone with toys rather than in a group with other kids.
Sorry about my rambling post but hopefully it makes sense any input or help ruling this out would help!
Thanks :)
> Hi,
>
> I'm 21 years old and since the age of about 14 I would say I have been suffering some kind of mental health issues, its extremely cloudy trying to remember back all that time but I do remember feeling amazingly tired and sleeping all day off school for days. At the same kind of time I remember I really wasn't happy at school and was bullied and therefore probably quite anxious. I have also really never got on with my dad at home and I assume it was sometime around the age of 14 or before that I realised that I was gay and so that was another thing that I had to hide from my parents and kids at school. I was also quite isolated and spend most of my time alone.
>
> Anyway my current symptoms which I believe are the same as I have pretty much for all this time without much variation are; I'm always quite tired and when I wake after a good nights sleep I still feel tired. I can sometimes end up sleeping for maybe 10 or 11 hours but usually its about 8. As I said I feel in a dream-like state, like I'm looking at the world through a bubble or a cloud I'm here and now but somehow removed from the world - derealisation. Terrible lack of concentration, and motivation, terrible memory. I'm also quite anxious and find it very hard to socialise and relax in social situations, I do avoid them and feel quite anxious just being around other people although my symptoms I guess are quite mental - I feel trapped, become panicked, I also get some physical symptoms.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried Fluoxetine, Lustral, (I think I may of tried other SSRIs after this possibly Paroxetine) I don't feel any of these made any difference to how I felt and definitely didn't help with the derealisation symptoms.
>
> Then more recently I attended the Depersonalisation clinic in London and was prescribed a course of Escitalopram with Lamotrigine after that failed to work it was followed by Escitalopram with Clonazepam which also didn't work. I'm not sure if it was one or both of these treatments but I felt incredibly groggy and wasn't able to function and after giving them a fair trial in the Doctors opinion treatment was discontinued.
>
> Within the past few months I saw a Psychiatrist locally and was recently diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I tried Liothryonine for a several weeks which had no effect and am currently on Phenelzine. I was started on 45MG and strangely when I said I was feeling crap and actually feeling more drowsy, groggy with less energy, not leaving home at all, just wanted to sleep until it was gone the dose was upped to 60MG a day which unsurprisingly didn't help. After being on this dose for another week I decided to half the dose to 30MG and try and stop this medication and thats where I am now. I am not particularly happy taking antidepressants and feel that most of them seem to try and numb the situation where I really want the opposite! Admittedly I have only been on the MAOI for approximately 5 to 6 weeks at the 45MG dose but I really couldn't handle feeling that bad.
>
> I wondered about trying some kind of stimulant or possibly amphetamine based medication I know this will obviously not help with the anxiety side of things but right now I have just had no motivation and been failing to attend uni or feel I could do anything really would this be a sensible thing to look into? Can you suggest anything else?
>
> Thankyou for reading all this and I hope someone can help!
This is the end of the thread.
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