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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 5:13:16
I've been reading up on aspartame recently. I have been drinking diet sodas for years, and was a 'true believer' of the FDA's stance that it's harmless, etc.
Has anyone cut out aspartame from their diet and noticed improvement?
I cannot seem to find a balanced view about this. All of the anti-aspartame sites are full of sensational claims. The FDA and manufacturer have obvious bias problems.
I suspect the middle ground is somewhere inbetween the two. I doubt that it causes every disease known to man, as some claim. However, hypotheses that it causes psychiatric symptoms in some predisposed individuals through certain biochemical processes (excititoxicity from aspartic acid, serotonin depletion, etc.) seem plausable.
I guess the way to find out is to go off of it for a few weeks and see how I feel.
I'd love to hear of any reports, either anecdotal or scientific.
Thanks,
Matt
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 29, 2007, at 7:03:27
In reply to Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 5:13:16
Hey matt! Great to see you back. I missed you.
> I've been reading up on aspartame recently. I have been drinking diet sodas for years, and was a 'true believer' of the FDA's stance that it's harmless, etc.
....harmless based on data supplied by the manufacturer.
> I cannot seem to find a balanced view about this. All of the anti-aspartame sites are full of sensational claims. The FDA and manufacturer have obvious bias problems.
I think the most telling aspect of the whole situation was that Monsanto spun off a separate corporate entity which has one function: manufacturing Nutrasweet. Oh, and it coincidentally limits financial liability.
> I suspect the middle ground is somewhere inbetween the two. I doubt that it causes every disease known to man, as some claim. However, hypotheses that it causes psychiatric symptoms in some predisposed individuals through certain biochemical processes (excititoxicity from aspartic acid, serotonin depletion, etc.) seem plausable.
Well, there's this lone paper (below). I corresponded with the lead researcher, asking him why there was no follow-up research on such an apparently robust preliminary finding. Well, he applied for research funding, but the response he received was unexpected. His entire research budget was withdrawn. He was virtually forced into early retirement. Put out to pasture. Surely, that was a coincidence. Here is that paper:
Biol Psychiatry. 1993 Jul 1-15;34(1-2):13-7.
Adverse reactions to aspartame: double-blind challenge in patients from a vulnerable population.
Walton RG, Hudak R, Green-Waite RJ.
Department of Psychiatry, Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine, Youngstown.This study was designed to ascertain whether individuals with mood disorders are particularly vulnerable to adverse effects of aspartame. Although the protocol required the recruitment of 40 patients with unipolar depression and a similar number of individuals without a psychiatric history, the project was halted by the Institutional Review Board after a total of 13 individuals had completed the study because of the severity of reactions within the group of patients with a history of depression. In a crossover design, subjects received aspartame 30 mg/kg/day or placebo for 7 days. Despite the small n, there was a significant difference between aspartame and placebo in number and severity of symptoms for patients with a history of depression, whereas for individuals without such a history there was not. We conclude that individuals with mood disorders are particularly sensitive to this artificial sweetener and its use in this population should be discouraged.
I contacted the Nutrasweet Corporation, and their reply was to send me a bound copy of an entire journal issue (Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology, 35(2), April 2002), dedicated solely to aspartame research funded by the corporation. There is a single paragraph which mentions the paper I cite, and they dismiss it because the study was both too small and terminated prior to completion. Uhhh, we knew that.
> I guess the way to find out is to go off of it for a few weeks and see how I feel.
That might be a very useful experiment indeed.
> I'd love to hear of any reports, either anecdotal or scientific.
>
> Thanks,
>
> MattI can't tolerate the taste of aspartame, so perhaps I'm lucky in that way. It certainly limits my exposure.
Best,
Lar
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 29, 2007, at 8:14:55
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on April 29, 2007, at 7:03:27
I avoid all sweetners at all costs - I go out of my way to read label packages and things like that, which is slightly obsessive. I was actually talking to my cousin the other day, who works for the goverments good standards agency and who looks into all this sorta stuff - her line was that having sweetners in food was relatively alright, because you would have to eat alot of that food to get into trouble with the sweetner situation, but the problems arise when you're drinking diet sodas because you can easily drink alot of diet soda in the course of a day, and then the levels of sweetners that you could potentially consume could get problematic.
Anyway this is slightly garbled I know!
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by notfred on April 29, 2007, at 11:17:05
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on April 29, 2007, at 7:03:27
> I think the most telling aspect of the whole situation was that Monsanto spun off a separate corporate entity which has one function: manufacturing Nutrasweet. Oh, and it coincidentally limits financial liability.
>
I am not a fan of monsanto in the least, BUT
that is a very common business practice. Incorpration limits liability, among other things.
Posted by Phillipa on April 29, 2007, at 11:23:07
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by notfred on April 29, 2007, at 11:17:05
It makes my mouth burn so I don't drink diet. Love Phillipa
Posted by saturn on April 29, 2007, at 12:27:31
In reply to Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 5:13:16
Hi Matt. I know how you feel. It's really difficult to get the real lowdown. I've done similar research w/ aspartame and am currently ambivalent re: flouride.
I've cut out aspartame and honestly can't say I notice a significant difference. I can't say I felt great while using aspartame either. I've been off of it for perhaps 2 months and don't intend to start drinking it again...but I wouldn't be afraid to either.
Good luck...Peace...Saturn.
Posted by saturn on April 29, 2007, at 12:34:22
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by saturn on April 29, 2007, at 12:27:31
> Hi Matt. I know how you feel. It's really difficult to get the real lowdown. I've done similar research w/ aspartame and am currently ambivalent re: flouride.
>
> I've cut out aspartame and honestly can't say I notice a significant difference. I can't say I felt great while using aspartame either. I've been off of it for perhaps 2 months and don't intend to start drinking it again...but I wouldn't be afraid to either.
>
> Good luck...Peace...Saturn.
>
>Just fyi also, Matt...the reason I don't intend return to aspartame is because if I'm not mistaken aspartame significantly raises phenylalanine concentrations in the brain, which in turn inhibits tyrosine hydroxylase-- which is needed to produce catecholamines.
So if this is correct I can at least see a definite theoretical basis for effects on mood and cognition.
Posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 13:55:22
In reply to Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 5:13:16
I figured since you were all so kind to respond, I'd provide you with a subjective n=1 study of aspartame withdrawal.
So it's morning here, and it's my first day without aspartame.
In my personal experiment, I will not eliminate caffeine, just aspartame in any form.
I'll post daily to tell you if it (subjectively) reduced 'brain fog', headaches, irritibility and anxiety. Those are four of my problem symptoms, and ones purportedly caused or worsened by aspartame.
Thanks again everyone. Good to see familiar faces here.
Matt
Posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 14:18:13
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on April 29, 2007, at 7:03:27
> Hey matt! Great to see you back. I missed you.
Hey Lar, likewise! You're a great scientist, and a gentleman.
> I think the most telling aspect of the whole situation was that Monsanto spun off a separate corporate entity which has one function: manufacturing Nutrasweet. Oh, and it coincidentally limits financial liability.
>
> Well, there's this lone paper (below). I corresponded with the lead researcher, asking him why there was no follow-up research on such an apparently robust preliminary finding. Well, he applied for research funding, but the response he received was unexpected. His entire research budget was withdrawn. He was virtually forced into early retirement.Wow, that's disturbing. I agree with the detractors that the study is incomplete, but it absolutely deserves more attention if the regulatory board is having to call the whole thing off mid-study due to AE severity.
>We conclude that individuals with mood disorders are particularly sensitive to this artificial sweetener and its use in this population should be discouraged.
That's the part that I really want to find more data on. Perhaps it is relatively benign to 'normal controls'. But what about us - population with chronic depression, or how about panic disorder?
> That might be a very useful experiment indeed.Today is day one. I don't have any high hopes, but, who knows? I remember only a handful of times since I was about 21 (now 32), where I have had less than a 44 ouncer a day. One time in particular stands out. I had no diet coke, so I had coffee instead (black). I remember feeling the caffeine kick in, but I really *needed* a diet coke. I drove way out of the way to a 7-11 to get my fix. Wierd, just for the taste of it? Hehe.
Thanks Lar!Matt
Posted by Racer on April 29, 2007, at 14:55:07
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 14:18:13
I didn't quit, but I did cut way back. It's been a couple of years, and I am pretty well convinced that it was not good for my depression. Right now, with my depression mostly controlled, it's hard to tell a difference between days when I have more, versus days when I have less, but back when I was in worse shape, I could really tell the difference.
Now, some of that was probably psychological -- the sense that I was doing something bad for myself when I had more probably increased any effect that the aspartame had on my mood. But I can safely say that cutting way back made a difference for me. So, n=1, statistically useless, but personally meaningful.
My husband and I drink far too much diet soda. I can't drink coffee -- upsets my stomach too much -- so the diet cola was my only caffeine, and I didn't cut it out entirely for that reason. I went from probably (oh, this is so embarrassing) 6 to 8 diet colas per day, to two. For a while, it was only one, but now it's pretty much two. I also stop -- or try to stop -- having any after noon. The net result was slightly improved depression, and much, much better sleep. When I was having only one per day, I was up early every day, and ready to function. Then again, I was also depressed, so I was up early because early waking is part of my depressive symptomology. And I was probably at the height of my anorexia, so functioning was part of the hyperactivity from that...
But, no matter what other variables are involved, I believe cutting way back on aspartame made a difference for me. I'll be interested in hearing what your experience turns out to be.
Good luck, and do, please, keep us informed.
Posted by Bonnie_CA on April 29, 2007, at 15:01:37
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by Racer on April 29, 2007, at 14:55:07
This aspartame thread made me wonder if there was any problem with splenda. I like drinking those flavored waters with sucralose. I haven't noticed anything weird, but I was wondering if anyone had heard anything that would suggest that sucralose might have an effect on anything. It's just a thought, since we're on artificial sweeteners.
I think for the most part, I'll just stick to sugar, since I know that it's the SSRIs and not the sugar that made me fat! :)
-Bonnie
Posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 15:11:26
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by Racer on April 29, 2007, at 14:55:07
Not to diminish your 6-8 sodas a day, but I'm drinking anywhere from 10-15. So don't be embarrassed, hehe.
Did you simultaneously cut out caffeine? I'm working on one variable at a time. Namely, aspartame. I typically get a mood boost out of pure caffeine (black coffee or NoDoz).
Your experience is encouraging. I'm all for any improvement, no matter how small.
I'll definitely keep you posted.
Matt
Posted by Sebastian on April 29, 2007, at 15:38:16
In reply to Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 5:13:16
I went off diet-m-dew a few times, and always feel worse. Try substituting coffee, and still don't feel much better.
Posted by notfred on April 29, 2007, at 15:43:51
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by saturn on April 29, 2007, at 12:34:22
>
> Just fyi also, Matt...the reason I don't intend return to aspartame is because if I'm not mistaken aspartame significantly raises phenylalanine concentrations in the brain, which in turn inhibits tyrosine hydroxylase-- which is needed to produce catecholamines.
>
Nope, it contains phenylalanine which a small group of people, Phenylketonurics, cannot metabolise.Otherwise, phenylalanine is an essential alpha-amino acid. ESSENTIAL to life.
It is also an OTC supplement, popular with the smart drug people.Nutrasweet products carry a warning for Phenylketonurics (PKU) with creates lots of false and misunderstood half truths. Phenylketonurics have a serious but rare illness. Doubtful one would accidently drink a diet coke...most do not make it past childhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylalanine:
L-Phenylalanine (LPA) is an electrically-neutral amino acid, one of the twenty common amino acids used to biochemically form proteins, coded for by DNA. L-phenylalanine is used in living organisms, including the human body, where it is an essential amino acid. L-phenylalanine can also be converted into L-tyrosine, another one of the twenty protein-forming amino acids. L-tyrosine is converted into L-DOPA, which is further converted into dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (latter three are known as the catecholamines).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylketonuria
Untreated children with classic phenylketonuria are normal at birth, but fail to attain early developmental milestones, develop microcephaly, and demonstrate progressive impairment of cerebral function. Hyperactivity, seizures, and severe mental retardation are major clinical problems later in life. Electroencephalographic abnormalities; "mousy" odor of skin, hair, and urine (due to phenylacetate accumulation); and a tendency to hypopigmentation and eczema complete the devastating clinical picture. In contrast, affected children who are detected and treated at birth (using the Guthrie Test, part of the national biochemical screening programme) are less likely to develop neurological problems and have seizures and mental retardation, though such clinical disorders are still possible.
Posted by KayeBaby on April 29, 2007, at 15:58:24
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on April 29, 2007, at 7:03:27
The stuff tastes like poison to me so I have always avoided it. Maybe this is instinctual.
On the other hand people can become addicted to the very substance that is toxic to them.
Larry-Thanks for that info.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by Racer on April 29, 2007, at 16:19:10
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better? » Racer, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 15:11:26
> Not to diminish your 6-8 sodas a day, but I'm drinking anywhere from 10-15. So don't be embarrassed, hehe.
Hm... That's about what my husband drinks, I think. I worry about him.
>
> Did you simultaneously cut out caffeine?No, but I cut back a lot. The only caffeine I get is through those diet colas. This may be an overshare, but if I drink regular coffee, I throw it up again within about half an hour, and feel lousy for hours afterwards. Decaf is better, but honestly? I haven't been drinking any coffee for a while, and don't miss it most of the time. Since I couldn't get caffeine without getting more aspartame or throwing up a lot, I ended up cutting way back when I cut back on aspartame.
>
> Your experience is encouraging. I'm all for any improvement, no matter how small.
>
> I'll definitely keep you posted.
>
> MattGreat. I hope you have a similarly positive experience. Then again, I know that I have had psychosomatic reactions, so it might just be that I *thought* there was some improvement... Whoa! Talk about recursive arguments! I just got dizzy thinking about that one! Guess it doesn't matter if it was psychosomatic or not, I felt better...
Crisis averted... Dizziness abated...
It's a glorious day here today, lovely weather. Makes me feel rather silly. And makes me think I'll go shower, and then go out and buy a convertible...
Posted by spriggy on April 29, 2007, at 21:06:49
In reply to Re: Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 29, 2007, at 8:14:55
My father with bipolar (and a myriad of other health issues) was drinking 8-12 cans of Diet Pepsi a day ( YES.. EVERY DAY).
His moods were MUCh worse. Not only that, but he started to have hallucinations for the first time in his life about a year into his Diet Pepsi addiction.
He got put in the hospital with what they thought was encaphilitis. Numerous dr's came in to diagnose him, etc..
I flew back home to be there with him while he was in the hospital. I was there the day the neurologist came in.
After the neuro dr. had my dad count backwards, and touch his nose to the dr. hand, etc.. (fun tests) he began to ask my dad about his diet (knowing he was a diabetic, he wanted to know how much Aspartame he consumed).
I butted in at this point to tell the dr. that my dad was consuming up to a 12 pack a day of Diet Pepsi (plus all the Diet Jello's and snacks, etc..).
Neuro told my father, " Get off of that stuff."
He told my dad he believed it could very well have contributed to his memory loss, his headaches, his hallucinations, and his depression.
I never forgot that ( 3 years ago) and so I stay clear of that stuff!!
(oh, dad went down to 2 cans a day of Diet Rite (Splenda instead) and did drastically improve mentally and cognitively!!
Posted by Phillipa on April 29, 2007, at 21:22:41
In reply to my dad/bipolar and Aspartame.., posted by spriggy on April 29, 2007, at 21:06:49
Spriggy is Lazarus still with us I sure hope so. Love Phillipa
Posted by Bonnie_CA on April 29, 2007, at 22:10:04
In reply to my dad/bipolar and Aspartame.., posted by spriggy on April 29, 2007, at 21:06:49
>
> (oh, dad went down to 2 cans a day of Diet Rite (Splenda instead) and did drastically improve mentally and cognitively!!
>
>Thank you for that information. :D
-Bonnie
Posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 22:33:50
In reply to Aspartame - anybody quit and feel better?, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 5:13:16
This is the longest I've been without aspartame (about 24 hours). I'll try to be as objective as I can with what I experienced.
- noticibly less irritable
- mood *seemed* more stable
- less hunger (the I NEED TO EAT NOW variety)
- less photosensitivity in the morning
- less restlessness (I'm hoping that translates to better sleep tonight)However, toward the evening, I'm feeling quite fatigued, but this is not abnormal for me. I still don't feel restless though.
I'm suspicious of myself though. I'm a sucker for placebo effects. I'm going to keep this up. I do feel quite certain that something has changed in me.
BTW, I still am drinking black coffee, trying to tease out the single variable of aspartame.
I'm also suspicious of my reaction because of the things I've read about aspartame being excititoxic.
Summary of how I *feel* - The roller coaster ride has become much smoother. Again, I'm a skeptic, and realize my own preconceived notions could figure in to how I responded on day 1.
More to come tomorrow.
Thanks all,
Matt
Posted by MeAgain on July 20, 2007, at 10:47:06
In reply to Toward the end of day 1, posted by mattdds on April 29, 2007, at 22:33:50
I was curious if you are still off the nutrasweet and if you are do you feel a difference???
thanks:)
This is the end of the thread.
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