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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:19:36
> > >
> >
> > That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
>
>
> Not true,xyrem was recently given the go ahead for OFF LABEL use,so its up to the docters discression to use it for something as common as clinical insomnia which it is being used for,even though as u stated its FDA approval is initialy for narcolepsy.
Any drug can theoretically be used off-label in the US. That doesn't mean that it will be used off-label, as there have not been peer-reviewed studies that sufficiently place it in the realm of antidepressant use that psychiatrists would feel comfortable enough to use it because others are already doing so and they collaborate.I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be examined, but it is not as harmless as previously thought. That's why its C-III, which is written on tamper proof pads or triplicates depending on your state.
This psychiatrist promoted Xyrem for off-label use and the publicity got him in rather major troublehttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/business/22drugdoc.html?ex=1171861200&en=aa8915409cf87521&ei=5070
That is what I'm talking about why some psychiatrists are conservative about the off-label use of medication. To make an example, my psychiatrist is not a GP or a back doctor. However, he has the go-ahead from my GP to prescribe Robaxin because the two have collaborated and I have signed a consent form for inter-communication and it is easier to renew the medications in one spot. But even with the drug, there were P450 interactions that might not have been picked up by someone not knowledgable in Serotonin Syndrome. Robaxin is an old agent and was never tested against P450. So we reduced the dose a bit.
I don't think you would want your psychiatrist say, prescribing antibiotics. They've been through medical school, but it is out of their realm of practice. An exception might be if you were on Clozaril or Remeron and developed agranulocytosis and a confirmed infection. Then he or she might prescribe preventative care with or without collaboration with your GP. Most likely would refer you to the ER in fact.
The same can be said that I don't think most GPs should be prescribing major pscyhoactive substances, especially neuroleptics, etc., because they don't have the training to recognize signs of EPS and TD, unless they have taken CE credits.
Sometimes in a small town it is necessary for a GP to prescribe a psychoactive substance such as, oh, Prozac, say. But I'd feel more comfortable if the individual took CE credits on how the P450 interactive system works.-- tidings.
Posted by laima on February 17, 2007, at 8:17:02
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » willyee, posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
A warning about kava, I discovered it can sometimes flip into being a stimulant for some mysterious reason. This is not even a matter of the brand, it's the kava itself. It happened to me before, and googeling "kava" and "stimulant" together produced a fair amount of results describing kava's use as a stimulant. Perhaps it's got to do with what someone above mentioned- it affects a large, wide range of receptors. I imagine that makes it a premium candidate to interact unpredictably with other medications and substances. Meanwhile, Medline gives it an "A" for anxiety, and they hardly ever give "A"s to any herbal supplements. Valerian is far more subtle, but far more predictable, too.
Posted by TheMeanReds on February 17, 2007, at 10:40:49
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 20:16:09
When I tried Valerian root for the first time for sleep, it was the dried type in caps. It smelled so funky I asked my roommate to put his shoes outside. I didnt know it was the valerian.
Then I went to Wild Oats, they sell something called 'phyto' valerian caps. They dont smell and it is alot more concentrated.
Also when I was taking remeron, it was a very small dose. A quarter of a half of a whole pill, that looked like advil in color. I can never remember what mgs on some pills because they have so many different mg pills.
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 13:37:51
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » willyee, posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
Oh dont get me wrong,i wasnt implying because a drug can be used OFF LABEL that it should be just thrown in a mix.
Id expect and hope,anyone dealing wit GHB/XYREM know a great deal about it,it just happens to be one substance i do,and it is very potent,as im sure you know its EXTREMLY dose dependent,meaning a min dose can be the differance of just right,and needing medical attention or being ill.
Its a powerful substance,however im glad its allowed off label as knowing it i feel if used right it can offer a lot to emotional disorders,but again once must read and learn about it.
Also side note,using both GHB when it was legal,and xyrem,in lamons terms i can say xyrem must be diluted or some change,when i used ghb i used it from various supplement companies and it was ALWAYS POWERFUL to the mg of a dose,xyrem however is very very forgiving in its dosage,not to say im sure it carries the same dangers of misuse.
I had contacted the company,and was told it is allowed for off label use via the docs discression,but like you say im sure this does not give a doc or patient a free ticket to ride as im sure even so its still watched when presribed,and just so.I am disapointed though at the lact of involvment my local docs even want to put in to using it,i had one after a sleep study willing to until they learned they would have to do some leg work as its not as simple as merly writing out the script,upon hearing this they then shrugged it off and instead choose a conventional sleep drug that i already knew does not help.
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 13:41:08
In reply to Re: kava, posted by laima on February 17, 2007, at 8:17:02
One thing i actualy LOVED about GOOD kava was the fact it provided anxiety relieaf without HOWEVER the stupour that most sedatives bring,i.e alcholol,benzos,ghb,etc.
Kava had an amazing effect of numbing the body of anxiety,yet stimulating the mind to where i actualy performed casual tasks such as driving,and many cognitive activities even better !!!!!
Now all the remaining brands seem to do is make my stomach ill,and make me dozy a bit,nothing like the kava i once valued so much.
Posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 13:50:36
In reply to Xyrem/GHB, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 9:54:44
GHB is not pleasant stuff...in fact it is downright dangerous.
http://www.projectghb.org/while_sleeping/sld001.htm
Posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 15:39:02
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 13:50:36
>GHB is not pleasant stuff...in fact it is downright dangerous.
GHB is pleasant stuff when used sensibly. I could make a similarly melodramatic pamphlet about alcohol if I were in such a frame of mind - the hundreds, amybe thousands who choke on their vomit; commit acts of violence while under the influence; cause road accidents; become addicted and ruin their lives; become promiscuous and contract fatal or damaging STDs; be promiscuous and end up pregnant leading to abortions and single motherhood; wander into snowdrifts on New Year's Eve and die of exposure.......etc, etc, etc, Y-A-W-N.........
GHB is *powerful* stuff however, and as such is not entirely safe in the hands of fools and the unwise. Just like cars, machine guns, alcohol and other powerful drugs. I think it's a shame people let that be an excuse for depriving the rest of us of useful substances.
Q
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 16:02:12
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 13:50:36
> GHB is not pleasant stuff...in fact it is downright dangerous.
>
> http://www.projectghb.org/while_sleeping/sld001.htm
>
>
<FYI: The above site is notoriously Anti Ghb,any thing else even to debate this in any way shape or form IS NOT ALLOWED on this site,it is run by woman named Trina who has made a career via anti ghb,there are many nuertral sites where one can get a balanced pro/con view of the drug,this site is not one of them.>This website is the first hit you will get if you type in GHB,a woman named Trinka made a career off of Anti - GHB,any sight that is so absurdly pro or con as in this case of something i believe one should take with a lot of salt.
If someone uses a search engine and wants to go as far as the first hit then this is what theyll get,if however they are willing to actualy take a few mintues,theyll also find that......
GHB was first brought about by a Dr Henri Laborit a Nobel Prize Nominee and also the same doc who brought about Thorazine which at the time became the only option that freed hospitals of lobotomys.
GHB was already a precription drug twice over,named ALCOVER in italy for alcholol withdrawal,and Gamma Oh in germany.The usa came down on these meds until they were outlawed.
GHB had numerous IND`S,which are clinical trials and interest ranging from anti depressant use to restless leg syndrome among tons of other things.
GHB is Non toxic,unlike aclholol which leaves the body via the liver in the form of methanol a toxin,ghb instead metabloizes into H20,water,thats it,about as toxic as it gets in pure form,other than the sodium intake etc.
I listed the pros because that site you listed is unfair and extremly biased,your not even allowed to mention or debate anything on it,everything is anti ghb and if its not it will not be allowed.
The cons of this drug is that it is extremly powerful,and used too often by morons who dont research it first,not only that it can be very addicting and also worsen depression since it is a depressant,its all in how its dosed.
GHB is a substance with tons of pros and cons,and should be weighed heavly before use,however a con that does not exsist to me is DATE RAPE,alcholol is the biggest date rape factor to date,and even achlolol shouldent be to blame,unless there is force a person should not be drinking around people or situations where they can end in harms way,and if unfortnatly they do,then it is a criminal act and the person/persons are the people at fault.Unless u tell me someone mistakenly took acholol thinking it was pepsi and due to this wondered aimlessy into the arms of a stranger,then any substance can be used in the willing eyes of a criminal.
Just because one substance is easier for a evil person to use doesent make the substance to blame.
Posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 16:57:26
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB, posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 16:02:12
Quintal and Willyee,
Point taken. It is however illegal and thus unobtainable by conventional means. Casting my mind back I did read a favourable article on GBH
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/authentic.html
If this drug has potential for patient welfare why is it banned? And why is it not unbanned?
ronaldo
Posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 17:12:22
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB fao Quintal and Willyee, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 16:57:26
GHB was available in the UK until 2003 when the government decided to follow the example of the US and ban it (and with more than a little pressure to do so from that country).
>If this drug has potential for patient welfare why is it banned? And why is it not unbanned?
GHB is available in some circumstances as Xyrem for a small subset of patients. It seems unlikely it will ever be legalized given that so many voters would oppose such a move if proposed by government because of opinions like those posed here by yourself.
Q
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 20:01:00
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB fao Quintal and Willyee, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 16:57:26
> Quintal and Willyee,
>
> Point taken. It is however illegal and thus unobtainable by conventional means. Casting my mind back I did read a favourable article on GBH
>
> http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/authentic.html
>
> If this drug has potential for patient welfare why is it banned? And why is it not unbanned?
>
> ronaldoA natural substance has a legal procedure to follow before it is removed from shevles,HOWEVER if it is presented as a clear immediate danger,then that is a loop hole to yank it with no objection.
The date rape hysteria did just that,now while i dont downplay any incidents where it was a culprit,i DO HOWEVER take dismay at how fast the public is to follow suit on media hype.The average person doesent even know what GHB is until you say the DATE RAPE DRUG,then you get the OOOHH OKKK NOW I KNOW.Also the numbers of its involvment in actual date rapes compared to those of simple acholol are laughable by comparison.
One could argue this was done to make the substance unobtainable unless through expensive prescription means.
Consider this,legaly GHB was obtainable on pennies on the doller from various stores,as a prescription drug its cost skyrockted to,i believe and im not sure here,but close to 500 bucks with no insurance.Knowing myself the simple ingredients of it,thats a hell of a mark up.
That well and said,to be fair,on the flip side of the coin it is also EXTREMLY EXTREMLY EXTREMLY dose dependant,meaning a 2mg dose could be just enough,and unless your carefully raising it,i.e 2.5,2.8 with the aid of a scale,a simple mg raise of say 2.5 - 2.8 could be the differance of a person getting very sick.So its not something that should be on GNC shelf for little tommy and his friends to buy.
Its a delicate matter,but one thing for sure is i dont believe it should be demonized as it is,and i do believe it should be held in some manner for a option as many many people have used it saftly for decades for sleep and anxiety depression etc,and now that its gone have turned to alcholol and very impure means of obtaining ghb analouges which are first unsafe,and second hold a extremly high criminal penality.
FYI: The day a huge bust OPERATION WEBSLINGER where ghb suppliers went from the slap on the wrist to 10 plus years in prison happened to be the exact day before xyrems arrival.
Posted by KayeBaby on February 18, 2007, at 2:12:04
In reply to Sleep Ridiculous, posted by Phillipa on February 15, 2007, at 12:45:31
Phillipa,
Lyrica is great for a deep,restorative sleep. I think it actually helps you to get in the later stages. When I took it for sleep purposes I slept so well, woke with a smile and felt the relaxion effects linger throughout the day.It seems to be fairly benign in side effects and gave me the best sleep ever.
Cal/mag before bed, Taurine and maybe L-theanine are worth trying too.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by ronaldo on February 18, 2007, at 4:23:29
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB fao Quintal and Willyee » ronaldo, posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 17:12:22
> It seems unlikely it will ever be legalized given that so many voters would oppose such a move if proposed by government because of opinions like those posed here by yourself.
>
> QI believe that both the arguments for and against a medication should be exposed. After all most meds. have pro's and con's. That is why I also posted the following article:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/authentic.html
ronaldo
Posted by jonathanupr on February 18, 2007, at 10:45:28
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by KayeBaby on February 18, 2007, at 2:12:04
SSRIs screw my sleep up big time. After getting down as much as I could on the Lexapro dose I take, sleep has gotten bearable. Gabitril has helped a ton.
Posted by Quintal on February 18, 2007, at 13:18:24
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by KayeBaby on February 18, 2007, at 2:12:04
How much Lyrica do you take KayeBaby? When do you take it?
Q
Posted by laima on February 18, 2007, at 22:27:26
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » KayeBaby, posted by Quintal on February 18, 2007, at 13:18:24
I just found an interesting article:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070201082510.htm
"A study published in the February 1st issue of the journal SLEEP provides a first direct demonstration that the "quality" and "intensity" of wakefulness can affect slow-wave activity (SWA) during subsequent sleep."
Posted by KayeBaby on February 19, 2007, at 0:07:35
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » KayeBaby, posted by Quintal on February 18, 2007, at 13:18:24
I have recently stopped taking the Lyrica after about a year of continuous use.
I took about 300 mg at my maximum dosage.
I felt like it was getting a little to up and down in my system and I recently have began treatment for hypothyroid and needed to see what effect the thyroid hormone was having on me.
I would take it again if I felt the need for it.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 13:56:21
In reply to Re: kava, posted by laima on February 17, 2007, at 8:17:02
I drink large quantities of kava. In my case it acts as a mild stimulant, but has no discernable effect on anxiety
Fred
Posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 14:01:38
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB » ronaldo, posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 15:39:02
I think the trick is to NEVER mix it with other CNS depressants like alcohol or benzos. This can lead to death apparently. But which drug is to blame? Everyone blames the GHB of course. I've never used GHB by the way
Fred
Posted by Quintal on February 19, 2007, at 14:14:27
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB » Quintal, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 14:01:38
Yes, technically you're right Fred, but I did combine GHB with lorazepam, clonazepam and temazepam and alochol all together and had no problems. I wouldn't advise anyone else to try that though.
Q
Posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 14:38:48
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB fao Quintal and Willyee » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on February 18, 2007, at 4:23:29
It says he took 32 pills which were meant for aiding detox from alcohol. But this was in 1978. I wouldn't think 32 pills of your average valium would be fatal, unless mixed with other things, like large quantities of alcohol, or GHB perhaps. Or was it GHB (available in pill form then? - perhaps not)? As usual, the press probably told only half the story as seen from a particular perspective
Fred
Posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 14:48:05
In reply to What did Keith Moon die of?, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 14:38:48
perhaps it was anatabuse. Surely not even the Moon-man was that crazy
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 19, 2007, at 14:58:56
In reply to What did Keith Moon die of?, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 14:38:48
> It says he took 32 pills which were meant for aiding detox from alcohol. But this was in 1978. I wouldn't think 32 pills of your average valium would be fatal, unless mixed with other things, like large quantities of alcohol, or GHB perhaps. Or was it GHB (available in pill form then? - perhaps not)? As usual, the press probably told only half the story as seen from a particular perspective
> FredIt was Heminevrin (chlormethiazole), a drug supposed to reduce the craving for alcohol. Not available in North America, but available to him in Britain.
I've seen hundreds of different rock bands over the years, and I've never seen another Keith Moon, may he rest in peace.
Lar
Posted by laima on February 19, 2007, at 15:45:37
In reply to Re: kava » laima, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 13:56:21
Thanks, that's interesting. I've used kava supplements before, and they were relaxing. It's just this one recent episode, the first in a long while, where it became "strange". Ie, it was very relaxing for about 3-4 hours, (as expected), but then flipped into raceimic stimulant for another few hours before finally wearing off. I think...I'll not touch it again. Very complex stuff, apparently.
> I drink large quantities of kava. In my case it acts as a mild stimulant, but has no discernable effect on anxiety
> Fred
Posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 18:10:26
In reply to Re: What did Keith Moon die of? » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 19, 2007, at 14:58:56
Larry Amen to that. He sure lived his life to the full in those 32 years. More to the point he was a fantastic drummer and sure left his mark. Constitution like an ox mind you and not to be emulated by many or any on this board Fred
This is the end of the thread.
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