![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jimmyboy on December 27, 2006, at 15:22:51
Does anone know what the treatment would be for alpha wave intrusion problem, basically getting "unrefreshing sleep". I wake up all night long and don;t get deep sleep. But I have no trouble falling asleep and sleeping a long *ss time. But I always wake up exhausted and puffy huge black circle under my eyes and have all the symptoms of sleep deprivation.
Basically what I was wondering- is there any medicine that gets you into deep , stage 4 delta sleep ? I think Xyrem does, but wonder what else would increase this type of sleep?
Exercise? Trazodone?
If anyone knows anything about this I would really appreciate some info. I have an appt w/ a sleep doc soon, but would like to be informed going in . Thanks
JB
Posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 16:05:50
In reply to Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by Jimmyboy on December 27, 2006, at 15:22:51
Sounds like a problem I'd been having, though somewhat improved now. I had a couple sleep studies which said I was low on the deep wave sleep, though I slept a lot. I've been very tired during the day. The sleep doctor's official conclusion was "idiopathic hypersomnia", or, "we don't know why you are sleepy". Official recommendation was, "Stimulants!"I've got to say, I do feel I am sleeping better lately, off klonopin, which I'd been using at night for a long time. (Eventually, I learned that a lot of sleep meds as well as benzos diminish the deep-wave sleep.) I also am absolutely positive that I sleep much better and deeper during times that I excercise more.
Still not a super-duper full of energy during the day though, and I'm not exactly on high dose of stimulant either. I'll be very interested to hear if anyone knows any other ways to improve deep sleep.
> Does anone know what the treatment would be for alpha wave intrusion problem, basically getting "unrefreshing sleep". I wake up all night long and don;t get deep sleep. But I have no trouble falling asleep and sleeping a long *ss time. But I always wake up exhausted and puffy huge black circle under my eyes and have all the symptoms of sleep deprivation.
>
> Basically what I was wondering- is there any medicine that gets you into deep , stage 4 delta sleep ? I think Xyrem does, but wonder what else would increase this type of sleep?
>
> Exercise? Trazodone?
>
> If anyone knows anything about this I would really appreciate some info. I have an appt w/ a sleep doc soon, but would like to be informed going in . Thanks
>
> JB
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 16:37:29
In reply to Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by Jimmyboy on December 27, 2006, at 15:22:51
That's good that you're seeing a sleep doc I'm sure he will get to the route of the cause. Me I take valium. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 16:39:14
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 16:05:50
Laima interesting that an opposite med has you sleeping. I too excercise and think it helps. Love Phillipa
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 27, 2006, at 17:19:46
In reply to Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by Jimmyboy on December 27, 2006, at 15:22:51
Dear Jimmyboy!
I would SERIOUSLY recommend evaluation of a sleep specialist and a full Polisomnography (pref. with MSLT). No medicines before that (-:
J
> Does anone know what the treatment would be for alpha wave intrusion problem, basically getting "unrefreshing sleep". I wake up all night long and don;t get deep sleep. But I have no trouble falling asleep and sleeping a long *ss time. But I always wake up exhausted and puffy huge black circle under my eyes and have all the symptoms of sleep deprivation.
>
> Basically what I was wondering- is there any medicine that gets you into deep , stage 4 delta sleep ? I think Xyrem does, but wonder what else would increase this type of sleep?
>
> Exercise? Trazodone?
>
> If anyone knows anything about this I would really appreciate some info. I have an appt w/ a sleep doc soon, but would like to be informed going in . Thanks
>
> JB
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 27, 2006, at 17:22:23
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 16:05:50
Sure, benzos reduces 3/4 stage sleep (deep) and makes a lot of alpha activity sometimes.
Some ADs generally improve sleep. Some better than others.
Posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 17:40:37
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds? » laima, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 16:39:14
Phillipa- it's not that the stimulants have helped with sleep, it's more that they help me feel more wakeful during the day. The doctors decided that I don't have trouble falling asleep, and they ultimately didn't want to give sleep meds. The sleep meds can further mess-up the sleep cycles, anyway, by robbing one of the restorative stages 3 and 4 deep sleep. I guess that is why you often hear about how they shouldn't be used long-term.> Laima interesting that an opposite med has you sleeping. I too excercise and think it helps. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on December 27, 2006, at 17:47:51
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds? » Phillipa, posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 17:40:37
Exercise can give more refreshing sleep, though try to exercise early afternoon. Possably anxiety reduction in the hours before sleep.
I've been having the same problem. 12 hours of sleep, but I wake so unrefreshed that I need all 12 hours.
SSRI's can sometimes make it worse. You could ask about something like trimipramine.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 18:04:38
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by linkadge on December 27, 2006, at 17:47:51
Phillipa- I thought I'd clarify-
After using klonopin for several years for sleep, what started happening is I'd wake up earlier and earlier, in a wide awake panic. It seems as though I was developing a tolerance, it was wearing off, and then I'd wake up and panic. It likely was also messing up my deep sleep. After 4-6 weeks off of the klonopin, and no other changes (other than swapping daytime ritalin for adderall), the panicky early wakenings have vanished, and I'm sleeping sounder. Interestingly, nightmares also vanished.As for excercise, how much time of day matters might vary per individual. I found I can do vigourous cardio classes as late as 6pm and still sleep soundly at 11 or 12, sounder than when I haven't excercised. But since it's a great way to wake up and to get endorphinated, that may be good reason to excercise earlier in the day.
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 18:52:11
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by jimmygold70 on December 27, 2006, at 17:22:23
Benzos reduce deep sleep?. My husband says sometimes I snore. What is better? Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 18:56:53
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 18:04:38
Thanks laima. I wish I could excercise earlier in the day. But maybe it's getting older or that I worked 3-ll for so many years I have never even before depression anxiety been able to excercise in the am. And if I do no way can I sit still for the rest of the day. I really hate this. Love Phillipa
Posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 20:19:51
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds? » jimmygold70, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 18:52:11
It's not that benzos reduce "sleep" exactly, it's that they reduce the amount of time spent in the very important stages 3 and 4 of sleep. These are known as the "deep" or "slow wave" stages, crucial for feeling properly restored, refreshed, and mentally well. Benzos and sleep medicines are known to keep a person in lighter stages of sleep, 1 and 2, for much of the night. (Not sure what they do about REM-but that's not deep sleep either.) A sleep doctor can tell how much time a person spends in the different stages by conducting a sleep study and checking what brain waves are doing; can't tell just by observation.> Benzos reduce deep sleep?. My husband says sometimes I snore. What is better? Love Phillipa
Posted by elanor roosevelt on December 27, 2006, at 22:26:01
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds? » Phillipa, posted by laima on December 27, 2006, at 20:19:51
ambien is good for 5 hrs or so
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 9:45:27
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by elanor roosevelt on December 27, 2006, at 22:26:01
Yes, sleep meds and benzos are effective for making one fall asleep, BUT they mess up "sleep architecture". A normal sleep cycle consists of certain proportions of light stages 1 and 2, deep 3 and 4, and REM. Brain waves are different during the different stages, and sleep experts say that the deep stages are crucial for feeling well rested and healthy. A person should cycle through the stages several times during a night. With benzo or sleep med, the stages 3 and 4 are lopped short. The person is still asleep, but they spend far more time in 1 and 2 than in 3-4. That's not so good, particularly long-term. That's why we wonder what sort of med or other intervention might increase the slow wave stages. Ambien, et al don't do that, they cut these stages short.
Posted by hugo on December 28, 2006, at 14:39:15
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds? » elanor roosevelt, posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 9:45:27
I keep bringing up Lyrica (pregabalin).
Just google "pregabalin slow wave" and the first thing that comes up is a French study which states: "Compared with placebo, pregabalin significantly increased slow-wave sleep both as a proportion of the total sleep period and the duration of stage 4 sleep. Alprazolam significantly reduced slow-wave sleep....Pregabalin appears to have an effect on sleep and sleep architecture that distinguishes it from benzodiazepines. Enhancement of slow-wave sleep is intriguing, since reductions in slow-wave sleep have frequently been reported in fibromyalgia and general anxiety disorder."
As for me, I've rotated between Lyrica and Ativan and I get a deeper, more restful sleep with Lyrica.
Hugo
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 16:04:53
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by hugo on December 28, 2006, at 14:39:15
Posted by Jimmyboy on December 28, 2006, at 16:21:56
In reply to Re: Alpha wave intrusion - sleep meds?, posted by hugo on December 28, 2006, at 14:39:15
Does anyone know how these two are related? I have read that depressed people have an earlier onset of REM and that it lasts longer than non-depressed people and that many antidepressants reduced or completely wiped out REM sleep ( MAOI's compltely stopped it).
So the question is whether taking something that suppressed REM would be helpful?Thanks,
JB
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 18:39:40
In reply to REM sleep and depression, posted by Jimmyboy on December 28, 2006, at 16:21:56
I've heard this, too! It's thought to (at least in part) have something to do with the mind hashing out problems day and night, tormenting itself without a break. Supposedly then, a break from dreams can then give the mind a chance to relax. Some say that's what's behind the sleep-deprivation-to-improve-depression phenomena. One would then imagine that suppressing some REM could be beneficial- sorry, don't know how. Though, how interesting, I have to say while that Emsam hasn't wiped out my dreams, I AM dreaming much less. I believe I was dreaming a lot more when I was also using klonopin- however, those were mostly bad dreams. I feel better now, and it's a relief to be able to go to sleep without dread or aprehension.
Does anyone know how these two are related? I have read that depressed people have an earlier onset of REM and that it lasts longer than non-depressed people and that many antidepressants reduced or completely wiped out REM sleep ( MAOI's compltely stopped it).
>
>
> So the question is whether taking something that suppressed REM would be helpful?
>
> Thanks,
>
> JB
Posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 19:40:35
In reply to REM sleep and depression, posted by Jimmyboy on December 28, 2006, at 16:21:56
I started a thread about the exact same topic. Depressed people enter rem too early, have little rem late in sleep. In mania, supposedly it is the opposite, rem onset is significantly delayed.
My hypothesis was to test taking an anticholinergic drug right before bed, to reduce REM, and then set my alarm to take a cholinergic drug late in the sleep period, to try and pull REM sleep forward.
I never tested it, but it might be worth a try.
Researchers have known for a long time, that remission can be induced, in some of the most severe depressions, simply by altering certain sleep cycles.
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on December 28, 2006, at 20:23:21
In reply to Re: REM sleep and depression » Jimmyboy, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 19:40:35
Yeah Linkadge I realized after I posted that you had been talking about that same topic just a few weeks ago ..
I think your theory should be tried out, what were you going to use to inhibit your REM sleep ?
I know scopolamine has that effect, but would be curious what you were thinking about using.
I know I start dreaming intensely right when I fall asleep and it goes on all night it seems. Not nightmares, just very vivid dreaming.
JB
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 9:56:55
In reply to Re: REM sleep and depression » linkadge, posted by Jimmyboy on December 28, 2006, at 20:23:21
Perhaps benydryl, or maybe cogentin. Cogentin is the stronger anticholinergic.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.