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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 12:07:19
Most people know im what you would call a SSRI HATER,i believe many many terrable things,however i dont post to the threads on them because im not here to debate,nor to persway anyone from seeking help,like the term what works for you,might not work for me.
Also there is not answer,no right or wrong,so no reason to debate anything,instead just have opinions.
With that said,i know the industry especialy at first focused stronglt on the seortoinin aspect of the disease.And many drugs were made to "play" with this chemical.
When you do a search you get very generic bull sh- quit plainly.HOWEVER when and if you play and learn how to use a search engine you can find some mind boggling stuff.I have all of the actual documents im about to mention,and if requested can find them and post them,but from memory,heres what they were,
NUMEROUS abstracts from credable universities who did studies on the cerberal fluid of passed on depressives vs "normal".
Yess serotionin did show to be altrered in just about all the results,BUT that is just a mere pebble,this is also the findings,
-- TONS of nutrients were imbalanced,and deficient in that of the depressives.--- TONS of amino acid balances were found,involving imbalnaces of excitatory aminos to inhibitory aminos.
--- Almost ALL the main chemicals were found to be im balanced in some way or form.
--- Skill density,and color were also found.
I cant remember exactly all and how it was laid out,but there were about 6 or 7 of these reports documented.
What this tells me is that there is a strong possability we are WAY off,and imbalances are just the end result of being sick,and taking lots of drugs that are even further altering the balances.
We are taking KNOWN feel good chemicals,ones hard street drugs are known to effect,and safety padding it so it isnt dangerous as to the degree of harder drugs,but in essecnse,is this not what were doing?I mean if there is no lab testing of chemicals,how can one know when and if a chemical is depleted,or even more so when is it leveld enough to lower or stop the drug,if it is "balanced" wouldent taking it non stop just hyper load it.I have been given answers to this that simply dont make logic to me.
Last i heard this one doc on a radio show mention he believes he knows or has an idea where these emotional disorders are comming from,however he said its a part of the brain we cant get to to study,but believes it lays where laughter in the brain is triggered.But the read out of imbalances in the reports were eye opening,and perhaps since maois kinda raise numerous ones,especialy in combo with other drugs,sometimes fair to be the best for some.
I dont know,i just fear made a wrong turn on highway like in DUMB AND DUMBER and are heading in a vague direction and my heart goes out to the recent people we actualy lost,least they knew there were some people in life,US who knew they were crazy and knew they were battling for our lives,and ive said it before,but thats what i feel i do every day,i battle a demon for my life.Sometimes your guard is down and we loose someone,its very sad.
Posted by linkadge on December 11, 2006, at 15:18:49
In reply to More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 12:07:19
Its true. There's so much more involved than just one single biochemical.
I suppose it gives patients a sense of hope when doctors say they know all the answers.
I think it would be very hard for somebody to make a complete recovery by using one drug alone.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2006, at 17:40:29
In reply to Re: More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by linkadge on December 11, 2006, at 15:18:49
I had no problems when I was highly involved in supplements. I was a huge fan of Shaklee. Heard their standards aren't good anymore since they went overseas. I knew and know that the meds except benzos have done nothing for me except make me miserable. And I drink a whey drink each night before bed. And take only a few supplements now but I need to take more. And diet is important. But who checked spinal fluid for neurotransmitters? Love Phillipa
Posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 17:47:53
In reply to Re: More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2006, at 17:40:29
> I had no problems when I was highly involved in supplements. I was a huge fan of Shaklee. Heard their standards aren't good anymore since they went overseas. I knew and know that the meds except benzos have done nothing for me except make me miserable. And I drink a whey drink each night before bed. And take only a few supplements now but I need to take more. And diet is important. But who checked spinal fluid for neurotransmitters? Love Phillipa
I can be wrong,but i believe its a serious procedure,and one that cannot be done to simply test on depressive,i BELIEVE POSSABLY it can lead to severe back problems including paralized.
Its usualy done on people who have passed on,since the chemicals all pass through this to the brain.
i also heard a perspective that emotional disorders begin in the gut where digestion lies,like someone here said,you can go crazy trying to make sense of it all,and you can,and trust me i know,spend a FORTUNE on actualy jumping ship fast and purchasing every theory that sounds good,off meds i had a closet full of numerous nutrients,herbs etc i believed were to help,all that did was empty my bank account.
Posted by blueberry on December 11, 2006, at 18:03:48
In reply to More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 12:07:19
Yeah, I agree it is much more complex than serotonin. All serotonin meds do to me is numb me out so the depression is still there but is numbed, along with every other emotion, numb numb numb.
And it's even more complicated than just a balance of chemicals. For example one serotonin med might work well while a very similar one won't. Something else is going on at a molecular level. And then there are the receptors, which may be defective, overactive, underactive. And then there are tons of other things really complicated that meds like depakote and lamictal do. And then there are the hormones, all of which I believe are intricately intertwined in the whole thing. And the few things I've mentioned here are probably just the tip of the iceberg.
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2006, at 20:00:13
In reply to Re: More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 17:47:53
Will I'm not sure of where this spinal fluid is coming from as I've had two spinal taps fully awake in the hospital checking for lymes to see if it was in the spinal fluid. Love Phillipa
Posted by dmlvt on December 12, 2006, at 13:25:01
In reply to More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 12:07:19
I really wonder how many cases of depression or other diagnoses are actually caused by something that's never tested, something that cannot be tested, or something that is just plain never suspected.
How many pdocs order any blood tests before going to their pharmacological tool kit?
I tried hard over a few months to completely wean myself off of drugs. I changed my diet radically, continued the supplements that I take, added some new supplements, and thought I was doing great. Eventually, my wife and I both realized that I needed to be back on the AD for now, along with Ativan and Ritalin.
Next month, I see my pdoc a few days before my annual physical. I'm going to tell my pdoc that I'm really not happy with where things stand. I'm going to ask him his thoughts about possible underlying causes of the depression and anxiety and ADHD symptoms.
When I have my physical a week later, I'm going to ask my doc to test my total and free testosterone, TSH, and T4 - free and total. Those are the minimum tests that I'd like to see done to look for possible biological causes of the mental symptoms. I certainly show symptoms that are consistent with either a testosterone deficiency or hypothyroidism, and either of those conditions can create or exacerbate mental health problems.
If all of those tests come out OK, I'm going to go back to the pdoc and tell him that I basically want to start from scratch with the brain meds. I don't want to start with an SSRI or SNRI as a given. I'm curious if a combo like Provigil and Emsam might be better than Ritalin, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin and Ativan.
I agree that in some ways, the SSRIs (or SNRI in my case) seem to help by simply numbing me to the pain I was feeling.
DML
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2006, at 18:11:18
In reply to Re: More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by blueberry on December 11, 2006, at 18:03:48
Hormones are vitally important to mental health. Even my pdoc admitted that more people with thyroid problems have depression/ anxiety. I've recently gone to an endocrinologist who is totally changing my thyroid meds. I picked up on an ER lab report that my free T4 was slightly elevated from the norms on the lab sheet. So had the GP do a panel gee the guy finds that now my thyroid is hyper after 9 years of the dose of synthroid keeping it within the low normal range. But he lowers the synthroid with no retesting. So got a referral to an endo who is further lowering it. Also checked pituitary for cortisol level that was normal. But ideally he should have done either a 24 hour urine collection test or taken blood through out the day for the cortisol level. But at least now I have a real endo. Also checked FSH of course it was high as I've been through menopause. I hear that estrogen and progesterone and testosterone aren't checked in postmenopausal women. Anyone know about this? And there is a nutritional MD near me who I'm going to see. He has a waiting list. Love Phillipa
Posted by dessbee on December 13, 2006, at 6:21:49
In reply to More complex than we are giving credit....., posted by willyee on December 11, 2006, at 12:07:19
I can understand your scepticism towards SSRI.
It is not the wonder drug it was once prophesized to be. Its action may work for some but it has many side effects, although fewer compared to older antidepressants.I agree that the pathogenesis of depression is complicated since it probably involves how our organism responds to stress, which is influenced by both genes and environment. So practically anything can be blamed for causing a depression. This is something the supplement industry is pretty good at capitalizing. But the majority of people do not get chronic depression at all so in my oppinion the real problem lies within us and once we understand the etiology behind depression it may very well be quite simple.
Posted by Jeroen on December 14, 2006, at 12:47:21
In reply to Re: More complex than we are giving credit..... » blueberry, posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2006, at 18:11:18
??,WHERE IS ED?? PHILIPPA!!!!!
Posted by Phillipa on December 14, 2006, at 13:12:18
In reply to TO Philippa WHERE IS ED UK??????, posted by Jeroen on December 14, 2006, at 12:47:21
Jeroen I don't talk to him much know he works 6 days a week but he wrote me and said he was staying away as babble was addictive to him. Once and a while he's here. Thought you were e-mailing with him? Love Phillipa
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