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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by florence on October 6, 2006, at 15:13:38
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression » florence, posted by SLS on October 4, 2006, at 6:14:16
Thanks Scott
I'm totally confused- before being dxed with Hashimto's thyroid disease; i was given every ad, etc. for "depression" when all i complained about was fatigue.
provigil got me out of bed 3 yrs ago: but it always always gives me a mood drop (anxiety and depression) so i am having a hard time stopping it. Cold turkey makes me hostile.
anyhow, mind not so clear right now...Provigil makes me smoke even more.. Wellbutrin(Zyban) took away craving yrs ago. I actually held a cigarette in my hand and had to desire to smoke it....but got anxiety and fatigue from wellbutrin ..still dont know what dopamine does and what NE does...
i did read many yrs back that melatonin has something to do with why people smoke..dont remember the web page.... people smoke for 2 reasons: some people need a boast: others need to calm down..
personally, i think i smoked cuz my metabolism was gradually getting worse cuz of undiagnosed Hashi's disease...
provigil right now is making me appear like i have ADD which i dont....
still dont have Hashi's under control.
Check your thyroid antibodies guys.or find info on Stop the Thyroid Madness website.
Thanks again Scott.....Florence
Posted by MrBrice on October 6, 2006, at 15:51:19
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 8:33:13
> >-
> The two drugs work very differently.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>so, there's no indication here that nardil would be a good drug for me? Istn't the nicotine working an indicator?
grtz
Posted by Questionmark on October 6, 2006, at 16:41:42
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark, posted by MrBrice on October 6, 2006, at 15:51:19
"> Aren't you speaking contradictious here? The nicotine raises the dopamine and thus gives a feeling of calm- and contentness.
Nardil also raises the dopamine levels, so one would expect it to have similar effects...it's a >reasonnable theory right?
> greets,
> Brice "> > >-
> > The two drugs work very differently.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
>
> so, there's no indication here that nardil would be a good drug for me? Istn't the nicotine working an indicator?
>
> grtzNot at all really. In fact, Nardil is highly serotonergic and ultimately not very dopaminergic. Although still much different, an SSRI would probably give one of the best indications as to how you would react with Nardil. But Nardil is a complicated drug and has much more wide ranging effects than SSRIs, including effects on NE, epinephrine, GABA, and even alanine, as well as serotonin and dopamine. (Incidentally it probably has a more potent effect on NE than DA, too). But in my opinion it is more similar to the SSRIs than it is to other drugs (except some other MAOIs like Marplan)-- probably even Parnate.
Nicotine is probably more related to Parnate than Nardil, as Parnate is more stimulatory and highly dopaminergic. But even so, dopamine has a wide array of effects and roles in the brain and in my opinion is a very complicated neurotransmitter. *** One drug that stimulates dopamine release can be much different than another that does. In fact, almost all if not all addictive substances increase dopamine output (in the reward centers of the brain)-- from opiates to amphetamines to nicotine and alcohol-- but many of these are of course extremely different substances, with the only real commonality being that they can induce euphoria.
And in my own experience I know that DA *agonists* are subjectively much much different than psychostimulants, which increase dopamine release [among other things] (directly or through reuptake inhibition or both)-- and in theory BOTH should result in the activation of more dopamine receptors & should consequently have quite similar effects.. but that is not the case.So, basically my point of this long tangent is that your reaction to nicotine can really tell you very little if anything about what your reaction to MAOIs or other drugs will be, particularly Nardil. The only thing it will tell you is how you will react to drugs that stimulate nicotine receptors.
... (Oh, which reminds me-- you might want to look into galantamine, of which I have no experience but which is believed to sensitize nicotinic receptors. It is primarily a cholinesterase inhibitor as are other Alzheimer's drugs, so it is also probably much different than nicotine and may not be beneficial, but it's something to look into. It's also not approved in the U.S. [as a pharmaceutical-- there are herbal supplements you can find it in], but it is in other countries.)
Posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 17:17:49
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark, posted by MrBrice on October 6, 2006, at 15:51:19
> > >-
> > The two drugs work very differently.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
>
> so, there's no indication here that nardil would be a good drug for me? Istn't the nicotine working an indicator?
I really don't know. Sometimes we get a little too smart for ourselves. I would say that if you have never tried Nardil, and you have already tried several SSRIs, Effexor, and Wellbutrin, then I think it makes sense to give it a try. If you feel particularly bad in the mornings with trouble sleeping, don't eat much, have psychomotor retardation, and are melancholic or are constantly dwelling on negative thoughts, then you might want to try a tricyclic first.
- Scott
Posted by MrBrice on October 7, 2006, at 22:19:58
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 17:17:49
I've just come home from a night of party, and i noticed it really really istn't the nicotine that's doing me well, it's the dopamine allright.
Since i have the feeling that many of the repliers here have experience with dopamine-medication, i'll ask it here-: what's the best way to increase my dopamine, witheout having to stop the treatment that my doc is so sure about.
I read something on bromocriptine, might this be a solution for me?
thanks,
Brice
Posted by Questionmark on October 11, 2006, at 0:05:17
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark, posted by MrBrice on October 7, 2006, at 22:19:58
Bromocriptine, pramipexole (Mirapex), ropinirole (Requip), and cabergoline (Dostinex) & others are all dopamine agonists that you could try (each affecting somewhat different combinations of DA receptors), and amantadine (Symmetrel) is a dopamine releaser. Parnate and selegeline are highly dopaminergic MAOIs. And, of course, the psychostimulants such as Adderal, dextroamphetamine, and Ritalin/methylphenidate have significant effects on dopamine as well.
As I've said before though, the dopamine agonists are often not quite like what one would expect-- at least for me, especially.
You also might look into the amino acids tyrosine & phenylalanine, and the supplement NADH.
> I've just come home from a night of party, and i noticed it really really istn't the nicotine that's doing me well, it's the dopamine allright.
>
> Since i have the feeling that many of the repliers here have experience with dopamine-medication, i'll ask it here-: what's the best way to increase my dopamine, witheout having to stop the treatment that my doc is so sure about.
>
> I read something on bromocriptine, might this be a solution for me?
>
> thanks,
> Brice
Posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 0:51:26
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark » MrBrice, posted by Questionmark on October 11, 2006, at 0:05:17
Hey thanks for the advice questionmark, but i just saw my pdoc and he doestn't want to add a dopamine medication.
he even thinks i might have too MUCH dopamine, since i am quite paranoide.
Maybe were gonna take some weird and very difficult urine sample test to check on my dopamine levels (never heard of it)?The med that he hastought of for me are injections, on weekly base, that would stimulate me and make me produce more transmitters myself.
Posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 9:39:23
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark, posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 0:51:26
Hi,I didn't read the whole thread yet, so forgive me if I am off-base or missed something. But this dopamine thing-caught my eye quick- my doctor for awhile suspected dopamine issues for me due to reasons ranging from sleep problems involving movement, motivational issues, and self-reported cognitive fuzziness (though that part has improved with use of Emsam with small amount of ritalin-and trying to do puzzles and reading more again.) Last week I got results back from blood test indicating low iron, almost anemia. He said that low iron can prevent the body from producing or even utilizing dopamine effectively, and put me on iron pills.
Bummer is, the iron pills (ferrous sulphate) seem to make me really nauseous. I have always been a big eater of red meat, take my vitamins, etc- but I guess none of that was enough somehow. I hope they help!!! Thank goodness they are supposed to only be temporary until I rebuild my stores.What injections are you being offered? Just curious. Maybe the answer is in the thread, I'm gonna look.
Best wishes,
laima
> Hey thanks for the advice questionmark, but i just saw my pdoc and he doestn't want to add a dopamine medication.
>
> he even thinks i might have too MUCH dopamine, since i am quite paranoide.
> Maybe were gonna take some weird and very difficult urine sample test to check on my dopamine levels (never heard of it)?
>
> The med that he hastought of for me are injections, on weekly base, that would stimulate me and make me produce more transmitters myself.
Posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 11:38:45
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Questionmark » MrBrice, posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 9:39:23
Hi laima,
your story compares very well with mine. It seems you have a very precautious docter who doestn't go and prescribe anything, and that's a good thing.
me too had my blood drawn and guess what, my iron was very low too. I was prescribed iron pills, but know this: it's in red meat that iron is. If you don't like the pills (it's a truth, they are VERY heavy for the stomach), just eat some more red meat and you'll be fine.
BUT iron is very unlikely to solve your psychological health problems, including the motivation etc. Now here is where you can learn from my experience: my docter prescribed me the dopamine antagonist deprenyl (eldepryl in europe) to see if this would solve anything. It gave me a small boost, but as far as the dopamine was concerned, the results weren't baffling. So save yourself the few weeks you would need to test it and forget it.
Now these injections, are supposed to stimulate your own making of various neurotransmitters. It is known to give a 'kick', not referring to drugs, but rather just to a raise of motivation and energy.
I haven't recieved any injections yet, and I even don't know the name of the product, but maybe we can stay in touch and i can keep you updated?
grtz,
Brice
Posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 12:06:50
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Laima, posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 11:38:45
Hi Brice,
Thanks for your reply. No, the iron pills are not at all supposed to "solve" my mood issues, but rather augment what else I'm doing in order to boost my iron back up, prevent a slide into full blown anemia, and hopefully possibly help the medications work more efficiently- but no guarentees or dramatic promises. (And I do appreciate that realism.)
But indeed, from studying the lab report (which I make no pretense of understanding) it looks like they checked for several kinds of iron- maybe it's more complicated than we realize? And I did read a few things about how iron, or at least avoiding anemia, is important for proper mood and proper nervous system function.
What's vexing is that I HAVE been eating rareish, red (organic, free range, best quality I can scrape up to afford) meat like a viscious carnivour for an awfully long time, so I just don't know what else to do. I just can't eat any more of it unless I go onto some full-blown Atkins plan, and I can't afford that! I am also one of those people who is suspicious and displeased with factory farming, so I am not keen to up my meat intake by buying the cheapo mass-market kind. I also suspect it's not as nutricious. And yes-I eat lots of vegetables too- and I don't tend to go for sweets or junk food often. I also take multivitamins, and since I've taken plenty of psych meds, I try to avoid other stuff, like advil, etc, unless it's dire. Either the iron isn't being absorbed by me properly, or something else I do must be depleteing it. Caffeine or alcohol? Or some other, more complicated vitamin delpetion/interaction mess? Any clues anyone might have to suggest why all this red meat isn't doing the trick would be greatly appreciated. (And I don't think I have any internal weird beleeding-unless it's very hidden-got checked out for that to some extent last year, too.)
Do keep me updated about those intriguing injections you mention.
I wonder what they are?Thank you again for your input. I really appreciate it.
Laima
Posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 12:11:05
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Laima, posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 11:38:45
Ok- getting more and more curious now- so I just googled dopamine and iron together, and it looks like a million things came up suggesting that iron is needed for dopamine production and usage. So i'll do a little more reading. Though again- I'm not suggesting- doctor didn't suggest- that this is any kind of direct bullet to solve a mood disorder. But sometimes it seems like a load of these "little " things add up...
Posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 12:32:24
In reply to Re: Nicotine and Depression Laima, posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 11:38:45
Well what do you know- in a few minutes I discovered some surprising claims about some things that can deplete iron: vigourous excercise, advil, tea, coffee. Great. Vigourous excercise is one of my most potent antidepressents, too.And it seems that there are claims that low iron can contribute to "Restless legs", attention deficit, fatigue and malaise of all sorts, even Parkinsons.
Seems like an important nutrient.
I just wish those supplements weren't so nauseating.
But I think I need to get back to work now for awhile.
Posted by michael on October 11, 2006, at 13:22:14
In reply to Re: Iron and dopamine » MrBrice, posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 12:06:50
> Hi Brice,
>
> Thanks for your reply. No, the iron pills are not at all supposed to "solve" my mood issues, but rather augment what else I'm doing in order to boost my iron back up, prevent a slide into full blown anemia, and hopefully possibly help the medications work more efficiently- but no guarentees or dramatic promises. (And I do appreciate that realism.)
>
> But indeed, from studying the lab report (which I make no pretense of understanding) it looks like they checked for several kinds of iron- maybe it's more complicated than we realize? And I did read a few things about how iron, or at least avoiding anemia, is important for proper mood and proper nervous system function.
>
> What's vexing is that I HAVE been eating rareish, red (organic, free range, best quality I can scrape up to afford) meat like a viscious carnivour for an awfully long time, so I just don't know what else to do. I just can't eat any more of it unless I go onto some full-blown Atkins plan, and I can't afford that! I am also one of those people who is suspicious and displeased with factory farming, so I am not keen to up my meat intake by buying the cheapo mass-market kind. I also suspect it's not as nutricious. And yes-I eat lots of vegetables too- and I don't tend to go for sweets or junk food often. I also take multivitamins, and since I've taken plenty of psych meds, I try to avoid other stuff, like advil, etc, unless it's dire. Either the iron isn't being absorbed by me properly, or something else I do must be depleteing it. Caffeine or alcohol? Or some other, more complicated vitamin delpetion/interaction mess? Any clues anyone might have to suggest why all this red meat isn't doing the trick would be greatly appreciated. (And I don't think I have any internal weird beleeding-unless it's very hidden-got checked out for that to some extent last year, too.)
>
> Do keep me updated about those intriguing injections you mention.
> I wonder what they are?
>
> Thank you again for your input. I really appreciate it.
>
> Laimahello -
not certain about this, but a while back, I was reading up on iron, and I think I recall something to the effect that vitamin C assists with the body's absorption of it.
... as I said, not certain about that info, (may have been zinc?) & don't have time to rsch it at the moment, but thought I'd throw it out there, in case you want to look into it further...
Apologies if I'm leading you astray here... in any case, you mentioned a multi-vitamin, so you're probably already supplementing vitamin C intake with that, no?
hope that's not too random...
michael
Posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 15:17:34
In reply to Re: Iron and dopamine » laima, posted by michael on October 11, 2006, at 13:22:14
Hi Michael-Thanks, I appreciate your tip. Later, when I have a little time, I will try to look that up and research it a bit. I've been suspicious that there might be something I'm doing or not doing to optimally absorb iron, so this is a great. Perhaps I could stand to take an extra C supplement in addition to the C in my multi, if this turns out to make sense after reading up. (Next thing you know, I'll discover I'm doing something to deplete C...) I'm pretty sure it's hard to OD on vitamin C, unlike some other vitamins.
Get this: the label from pharmacy says all kinds of stuff like, "Don't take x hours before or after dairy, caffeine, grains, dairy...everything and anything you might possibly think up..." But the pharmacists were all vague about specifics: "Just take it!" :)
Thanks again,
Laima
> hello -
>
> not certain about this, but a while back, I was reading up on iron, and I think I recall something to the effect that vitamin C assists with the body's absorption of it.
>
> ... as I said, not certain about that info, (may have been zinc?) & don't have time to rsch it at the moment, but thought I'd throw it out there, in case you want to look into it further...
>
> Apologies if I'm leading you astray here... in any case, you mentioned a multi-vitamin, so you're probably already supplementing vitamin C intake with that, no?
>
> hope that's not too random...
>
> michael
Posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 15:27:00
In reply to Re: Iron and dopamine » MrBrice, posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 12:06:50
> Do keep me updated about those intriguing injections you mention.
> I wonder what they are?
>
> Thank you again for your input. I really appreciate it.
>
> LaimaHey laima,
i WILL keep you updated, let's both hope it's a wonder medicine that will cure us from all of our problems :-)
kind regards,
Brice
Posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 15:46:03
In reply to Re: Iron and dopamine, posted by MrBrice on October 11, 2006, at 15:27:00
Ok, it's a plan!
> > Do keep me updated about those intriguing injections you mention.
> > I wonder what they are?
> >
> > Thank you again for your input. I really appreciate it.
> >
> > Laima
>
> Hey laima,
>
> i WILL keep you updated, let's both hope it's a wonder medicine that will cure us from all of our problems :-)
>
> kind regards,
> Brice
Posted by MrBrice on October 15, 2006, at 12:58:06
In reply to Re: Iron and dopamine » MrBrice, posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 15:46:03
hi laida,
everything fine?
I just phoned my doc to ask what injections he was talking about, just so i could do some research on the internet before i see him this tuesday.
Appears the medicine is called Synacthen, and it's an injection of a acth-hormone. It's 'normally' used to check if the kidneys still work fine, but my doc said he knows from experience it has other therapeutic effects also.
I find it a VERY strange thing, but my docter is a capable man and i think i will give it a go. It's supposed to give a 'kick', so as you have more energy all week long.
I'm curious, tough very stupified by the med he suggests.
i'll keep you updated.
greetz
Posted by MrBrice on October 18, 2006, at 10:07:54
In reply to Re: ACTH hormone - very strange Laida, posted by MrBrice on October 15, 2006, at 12:58:06
man this medicine injection i just got yesterday is great!
I get energy, no problems at school at al, keep my humour and so on and so on.it's a good one laida ;) might wanna check it out.
to repeat: synacthen, injected 1x weekly ;)
grtz
Posted by ed_uk on October 18, 2006, at 14:19:52
In reply to MAGIC, posted by MrBrice on October 18, 2006, at 10:07:54
That's great that you're feeling better. How long will you be allowed to have the injection for?
Ed
Posted by MrBrice on October 18, 2006, at 14:23:06
In reply to Re: MAGIC » MrBrice, posted by ed_uk on October 18, 2006, at 14:19:52
> That's great that you're feeling better. How long will you be allowed to have the injection for?
>
> Edno idea Ed, my doc told me he has had people on it for more than 30 years.
what were doing here is just stimulating the OWN production of many factors, like testosterone (in lesser value) and serotonine and dopamine.
i feel great and hope it will last.
grtz
Posted by MrBrice on October 19, 2006, at 5:51:35
In reply to Re: MAGIC, posted by MrBrice on October 18, 2006, at 14:23:06
offcourse the hormone ACTH IS replaced by a medicine, so this part of the treatment is NOT natural.
Posted by ed_uk on October 19, 2006, at 15:34:06
In reply to Re: MAGIC, posted by MrBrice on October 18, 2006, at 14:23:06
Hi MrB
Are you seeing an endocrine doctor?
Ed
Posted by MrBrice on October 20, 2006, at 6:17:50
In reply to Re: MAGIC » MrBrice, posted by ed_uk on October 19, 2006, at 15:34:06
> Hi MrB
>
> Are you seeing an endocrine doctor?
>
> EdNo i'm not, but my pdoc has enough qualifications to decide wether or not this medication is approvable for me.
I have done hormone tests in the past tough, so there is a rational base to his decision too.
Posted by Cairo on October 21, 2006, at 6:43:24
In reply to Re: iron depletion, posted by laima on October 11, 2006, at 12:32:24
A sluggish HPA axis can cause hypothyroid symptoms and anemia might be a result of this. I get anemia periodically and take iron supplements even when my ferritin level is in the low "normal" range. It helps with fatigue. I wouldn't take iron indescriminately, however.
Cairo
> Well what do you know- in a few minutes I discovered some surprising claims about some things that can deplete iron: vigourous excercise, advil, tea, coffee. Great. Vigourous excercise is one of my most potent antidepressents, too.
>
> And it seems that there are claims that low iron can contribute to "Restless legs", attention deficit, fatigue and malaise of all sorts, even Parkinsons.
>
> Seems like an important nutrient.
>
> I just wish those supplements weren't so nauseating.
>
> But I think I need to get back to work now for awhile.
Posted by MrBrice on October 26, 2006, at 14:44:19
In reply to Re: iron depletion, posted by Cairo on October 21, 2006, at 6:43:24
to everyone who has followed this thread with interest, it might be helpfull to know that the medicine really KEEPS on working, now even better then in the beginning.
I have had 3 injections now, my kidneys are actually growing and making their own hormones, neurotransmitters and what else they are supposed to make.
My period of 'burn-out' now really seems over, and i feel my life has started again, after a breakdown of about 2,5 years (!).
regards,
Brice
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