![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 85. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 12:53:08
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 10:53:42
> >Addiction is now narrowly defined >as "uncontrolled, compulsive use"; if there is >no harm being suffered by, or damage done to, >the patient or another party, then clinically it >may be considered compulsive, but to the >definition of some it is not categorized >as "addiction".
> So, if effexor is not classified as addictive, then "uncontrolled", must really be the key to the term addictive, since clearly using the medication is compulsory once you start, you literally need to continue taking in order to avoid painful withdrawl.Yes. This is true. I wish I knew what the percentage was of people for whom the withdrawal syndrome was intense. Clearly, not everyone suffers this.
> So, if we very narrowly define addictive as simply "uncontrolled use"...
The medical community does not define it "simply" that way. Let's not act too cleverly with words here.
> ...for the sake of the maintainance of any form of inegrity in the medical comunity, then all of a sudden, nicotine is not addictive, nor is heroin, benzodiazapines, marajuanna etc, so long as they are used in a controlled manner.
> > In practice, the two kinds of addiction are not >always easy to distinguish. Addictions often >have both physical and psychological components."
> It was a lot easier to tell if something was addictive before effexor came on the market.Cute.
MAOIs are no picnic to come off of abruptly. Prednisone either.
> > Physical dependency occurs when a drug has been >used habitually and the body has become >accustomed to its effects. The person must then >continue to use the drug in order to feel
> >normal> Thats sounds like effexor to me.
Feel free to select any portion of a definition you like.
> >or its absence will trigger the symptoms of >withdrawal.
> Bingo.Yup. You choose well.
> >Psychological dependency occurs when a drug has >been used habitually and the mind has become >emotionally reliant on its effects, either to >elicit pleasure or relieve pain, and does not >feel capable of functioning without it.
> Effexor relieves emotional, and physical pain. Once you start, you are reliant on its presence to maintain a normal mood. Most effexor users do not feel capable of funtioning without it.Here, you have to make a judgment regarding the intended use and the end result. Here, the intended use is as a medical remedy of a recognized malady. The end result is, hopefully, normothymia - normal affective and cognitive function.
> > Its absence produces intense cravings, which are >often brought on or magnified by stress. A >dependent person may have either aspects of >dependency, but often has both."> Cravings are also hard to define. When on effexor, I would crave the drug if I didn't get it. If I missed a dose, thats all I thought about was how to get home and obtain the effexor. I craved the sence of well being it created, the warmth. Who knows what I may have done to obtain the drug if it were illegal. Robbed a bank ?
You are right. Again, this might be a judgment call. Cravings might be judged to be such if they occur while someone is in a normal baseline state. This is in contrast to someone feeling an intense desire for a drug while they are in an ill state.
Normal desire -> craving
Ill desire -> need> But lets break it down into just some of the descriptive words used in the definition.
>
> habit-forming: Yes, taking it you form a habit.
> withdrawal: Yes,
> compulsive use: Yes, taking the drug becomes
> manditory.Again:
NEED during state of ILLNESS
versus
COMPULSION during state of WELLNESS.
Do people crave aspirin when they have a headache?
Do people have compulsions for nitroglycerin when they have angina pectoris?
Is it habit forming to take insulin if you are a diabetic?Sorry, I don't get it.
Effexor is what it is: A very effective drug for depression and anxiety disorders that can be difficult to discontinue due to withdrawal syndrome.People usually do not become psychologically dependent on Effexor, and there is no development of cravings or compulsions.
Effexor is not addictive as is heroin.
- Scott
Posted by Crazy Horse on September 26, 2006, at 13:28:35
In reply to Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 months?, posted by shelby11 on September 25, 2006, at 19:43:18
> I have been taking Effexor XR 75 ml for about 3 months for anxiety. The side effects were intense at first but I don't get them any more, except for the yawning. I have to admit I don't obesess as much or get worried or as paranoid, and I only change clothes 3 times instead of 10 before I go to out of the house. But,I am skeptical whether I need this medication. I asked my DR, he prescribed Effexor with very few questions, very little info. I want to stop taking this medication, before I am addicted. or is it already too late?
This is too simple..YOU NEED IT. It's working..obviously, don't change anything. Addicted to an antidepressant..HOGWASH!! When/if you want to go off it, you can easily taper off this med in a week or two, i have done it myself. Best wishes.
-Monte
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 13:46:53
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 months?, posted by Crazy Horse on September 26, 2006, at 13:28:35
NIDA, NIH discussion on addiction:
http://www.drugabuse.gov/Published_Articles/Essence.html
"Defining Addiction
Twenty years of scientific research, coupled with even longer clinical experience, has taught us that Focusing on this physical vs. psychological distinction is off the mark, and a distraction from the real issue. From both clinical and policy perspectives, it does not matter much what physical withdrawal symptoms occur. Other aspects of addiction are far more important.
Physical dependence is not that important because, first, even the florid withdrawal symptoms of heroin and alcohol addiction can be managed with appropriate medications. Therefore, physical withdrawal symptoms should not be at the core of our concerns about these substances.
Second, and more important, many of the most addicting and dangerous drugs do not even produce very severe physical symptoms upon withdrawal. Crack cocaine and methamphetamine are clear examples. Both are highly addicting, but stopping their use produces very few physical withdrawal symptoms, certainly nothing like the physical symptoms of alcohol or heroin withdrawal.
What does matter tremendously is whether or not a drug causes what we now know to be the essence of addiction: uncontrollable, compulsive drug seeking and use, even in the face of negative health and social consequences. This is the crux of how many professional organizations all define addiction, and how we all should use the term. It is really only this expression of addiction - uncontrollable, compulsive craving, seeking and use of drugs - that matters to the addict and to his or her family, and that should matter to society as a whole. These are the elements responsible for the massive health and social problems caused by drug addiction."
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 14:18:32
In reply to Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 months?, posted by shelby11 on September 25, 2006, at 19:43:18
This becomes silly after awhile, this addiction thing.
Effexor is what it is.
Should you have the biology that produces a withdrawal syndrome upon discontuation of Effexor, there are strategies to circumvent this phenomenon. This is one of the functions of the Withdrawal board here. The best thing to do is to first try a gradual taper; opening up capsules or getting the smaller tablets to use to be able to take very small doses as needed. You might be able to get off of it within a couple of weeks if you use a flexible-dosing strategy or cross-over to Prozac. Anyway, that's for Withdrawal. Now that you are on it, you might as well cross that bridge when you come to it later. It might make sense to use this drug for as much benefit as it can give you, both in terms of dosage and time.
You could come off of it now. 75mg for 3 months is low and medium-short. If you are a withdrawal-type person, it might be of only moderate intensity, but you probably will get it. If I were in your position, I would not let the withdrawal thing be my decision maker at this point. Notice that I said "I". Since I am not you, I cannot know everything that would go into making a decision regarding the continued use of Effexor. The other SRI drugs have similar withdrawal syndromes if you are a withdrawal-type person. People even have problems with Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil. I think the longer you stay on the drug, the better your chances are of staying well once you come off of it. Do some more research and wait for more feedback. Ask your doctor questions. Go for second opinions. This is an important decision to make. As was already pointed out, if you discontinue a drug prematurely and return to it later, it might not work again.
Can you give a little more of your history? It helps to give an impression as to how long you might want to remain on the drug for.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 17:09:16
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 12:53:08
>Yes. This is true. I wish I knew what the >percentage was of people for whom the withdrawal >syndrome was intense. Clearly, not everyone >suffers this.
No, but I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people have signed petitions in agreement with the notion that the drug is addictive. A lot of people will have a very hard time getting off it, yet not tell anybody.
>The medical community does not define >it "simply" that way. Let's not act too cleverly >with words here.I was simply using the definition you gave, which consisted of two terms. If effexor fits the one defintion, and yet is not addictive then this means that it cannot fit the other. Otherwise it satisfies both.
>Feel free to select any portion of a definition >you like.
Look, I am not picking and choosing. I took every one of the words that you used to describe addiction, and I described how the effects of effexor applied to it.
>Yup. You choose well.I honestly don't understand what you mean. I went through your definition step by step.
>Here, you have to make a judgment regarding the >intended use and the end result. Here, the >intended use is as a medical remedy of a >recognized malady. The end result is, hopefully, >normothymia - normal affective and cognitive >function.So your point is essentially that of the medical community. The medical comunity wants a drug to be one thing. That does not mean that this is what it is.
>You are right. Again, this might be a judgment >call. Cravings might be judged to be such if >they occur while someone is in a normal baseline >state. This is in contrast to someone feeling an >intense desire for a drug while they are in an >ill state.But cravings can happen within 24 hours of missing a drug. So, for this to be considered abnormal, the person would have to be considered ill? This would imply that missing the drug will make you ill, which is physical dependance. So, either way you look at it....
>Normal desire -> craving
>Ill desire -> needBut normal people don't desire addictive drugs. People start to desire addictive drugs after they have been introduced to them. People are not taking effexor to cure effexor withdrawl symptoms. These symtoms are completely independant of the orignial illness, and cannot be attibuted to the original illness. As a result, you cannot say they that, at this point, they are craving relif from their original illness. Now they are craving relief from effexor withdrawl.
>Do people crave aspirin when they have a >headache?How many bullitin boards, and how many petitions have been signed warning people against starting asprin for fear they they may never be able to stop taking it. Asprin withdrawl is nonexistant.
Again, nobody can be addicted to a drug before they take it either. We're not talking about a depressed person wanting relif from their original core symtpoms.
>Sorry, I don't get it.You don't need to. Nor will convincing me that it is not addictive do anything. To straighten things out, you would need to convince each and every one of the people that have signed various petitions worldwide attesting to the addictiveness of effexor.
>Effexor is what it is: A very effective drug for >depression and anxiety disorders that can be >difficult to discontinue due to withdrawal >syndrome.
"withdawl syndome"....heh.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 17:22:30
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 13:46:53
"Uncontrollable, compulsive drug seeking and use, even in the face of negative health and social consequences. "
"This is the crux of how many professional organizations all define addiction"
Fine then. There are no such things as additive drugs, only addictive personailities.
Lets break this down:Uncontrollable.
Yes, there are many people who simply cannot stop taking effexor.
compulsive drug seeking and use
even in the face of negative health and social consequences.The only thing that separates effexor from other drugs is that it is easily obtainable from a doctor. That is why being addicted to it is "socially acceptable". Effexor use is not without negative health consequences.
After the civil war, consider all the soldiers addicted to morphine. The use of this drug was socially aceptable because it was obtainable by a doctor. These people were no less junkies than somebody who uses heroin. But the social context worked to buffer excessive criticism.
Take effexor off the market tomorrow, and then we'll play this game again.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 17:29:47
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month » shelby11, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 14:18:32
Patient:
"Doctor, what the he** is going on, I missed my effexor and the world is crashing down around me."Doctor:
"Don't worry its just a discontinuation syndrome."Patient:
"Well, I'm glad to hear that! That takes a load of my mind! And here I was starting to think I was going into withdrawl or something! Thanks doctor, you're the best!"Linkadge
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 17:54:05
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 17:29:47
I get it now.
If Effexor is addictive, people win money in law suites.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 17:56:30
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 17:29:47
How would you describe your Effexor withdrawal?
How did you manage it?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 18:27:02
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month » linkadge, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 17:56:30
> How would you describe your Effexor withdrawal?
>
> How did you manage it?
Interestingly, my first time coming off of Effexor reminded me very much of my coming off of Parnate. I don't remember the dosage I was at, but I did not use a very gradual taper. I experienced anxiety, tremulousness, brain-zaps, and other stuff that I can't remember right now. It wasn't really that intense, though, and I wasn't too upset by it, as I had already been through withdrawal syndromes from various antidepressants and benzodiazepines in the previously.Withdrawal syndrome? What's the issue with this term? A syndrome is a complex or pattern of symptoms indicative of a disease or condition. In this case, it is indicative of the withdrawal of a chemical substance. Some people had a problem with the term "discontinuation syndrome" when it first appeared in medical literature. I still don't understand why. It is descriptive.
With my subesquent trials of Effexor, I used dosages of 300mg or higher. I learned how to taper gradually from this dosage using what I call a flexible-dosing strategy. I dose as needed rather than following a strict schedule. It only takes me 10-14 days to accomplish this, and I don't have to experience symptomology that would include brain-zaps. I don't know if this would work with everyone, but several people who have tried it while posting on the Withdrawal board found it effective. However, I can't say that any of these people were the worst of the worst.
- Scott
Posted by fca on September 26, 2006, at 18:34:24
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month » linkadge, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 17:56:30
You can argue about whether Effexor is addictive or not--it is not. Addiction is a word--and only a word. In pracrice (not theory) it is used to describe drug seeking behavior, dependence, usually increased tolerance and painful withdrawl. It really is a cultural concept and not very useful from a medical point of view. Effexor is an effective drug that assists in partially restoring reasonably normal brain function. I would posit that it is no more addicting than many other drugs such as insulin (see what happens when you stop it), many immunosuppresants, hormone replacments and other drugs that I could look up. There are scads of chronic illness where it is assumed that long term maintenance on a drug is the predictable course. If a drug is working, has tolerable side effects and little or no known negative long term effects use it.
Posted by Racer on September 26, 2006, at 21:58:27
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by fca on September 26, 2006, at 18:34:24
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2006, at 8:24:13
In reply to Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 months?, posted by shelby11 on September 25, 2006, at 19:43:18
I imagine the discussion that ensued regarding addiction was unexpected. I hope it didn't upset or confuse you.
What are your thoughts right now?
- Scott
Posted by Crazy Horse on September 27, 2006, at 14:39:39
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 26, 2006, at 17:09:16
> >Yes. This is true. I wish I knew what the >percentage was of people for whom the withdrawal >syndrome was intense. Clearly, not everyone >suffers this.
>
> No, but I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people have signed petitions in agreement with the notion that the drug is addictive. A lot of people will have a very hard time getting off it, yet not tell anybody.
>
>
> >The medical community does not define >it "simply" that way. Let's not act too cleverly >with words here.
>
> I was simply using the definition you gave, which consisted of two terms. If effexor fits the one defintion, and yet is not addictive then this means that it cannot fit the other. Otherwise it satisfies both.
>
>
>
>
>
> >Feel free to select any portion of a definition >you like.
>
> Look, I am not picking and choosing. I took every one of the words that you used to describe addiction, and I described how the effects of effexor applied to it.
>
>
> >Yup. You choose well.
>
> I honestly don't understand what you mean. I went through your definition step by step.
>
>
> >Here, you have to make a judgment regarding the >intended use and the end result. Here, the >intended use is as a medical remedy of a >recognized malady. The end result is, hopefully, >normothymia - normal affective and cognitive >function.
>
> So your point is essentially that of the medical community. The medical comunity wants a drug to be one thing. That does not mean that this is what it is.
>
>
> >You are right. Again, this might be a judgment >call. Cravings might be judged to be such if >they occur while someone is in a normal baseline >state. This is in contrast to someone feeling an >intense desire for a drug while they are in an >ill state.
>
> But cravings can happen within 24 hours of missing a drug. So, for this to be considered abnormal, the person would have to be considered ill? This would imply that missing the drug will make you ill, which is physical dependance. So, either way you look at it....
>
> >Normal desire -> craving
> >Ill desire -> need
>
> But normal people don't desire addictive drugs. People start to desire addictive drugs after they have been introduced to them. People are not taking effexor to cure effexor withdrawl symptoms. These symtoms are completely independant of the orignial illness, and cannot be attibuted to the original illness. As a result, you cannot say they that, at this point, they are craving relif from their original illness. Now they are craving relief from effexor withdrawl.
>
>
> >Do people crave aspirin when they have a >headache?
>
> How many bullitin boards, and how many petitions have been signed warning people against starting asprin for fear they they may never be able to stop taking it. Asprin withdrawl is nonexistant.
> Again, nobody can be addicted to a drug before they take it either. We're not talking about a depressed person wanting relif from their original core symtpoms.
>
>
> >Sorry, I don't get it.
>
> You don't need to. Nor will convincing me that it is not addictive do anything. To straighten things out, you would need to convince each and every one of the people that have signed various petitions worldwide attesting to the addictiveness of effexor.
>
> >Effexor is what it is: A very effective drug for >depression and anxiety disorders that can be >difficult to discontinue due to withdrawal >syndrome.
>
> "withdawl syndome"....heh.
>
> Linkadge
>OMG!!! THIS IS TOO MUCH!! Let's see if we can scare this women so much talking about how addictive Effexor is so that she will go off the drug, get severely depressed again, and even possibly commit suicide!!! Sometimes i can't believe you guys! Is it more important to prove you are right about something than possibly saving a person's life? Think about it..oh, i know what you are going to say.."I am missing the point." B.S.! The point is, we are talking about confusing and possibly encouraging a fragile person to quit taking a medication that is possibly saving her life because of fear of addiction. Addiction is probably very possible with this drug as well as many others, but getting off (if ever needed) is simply done by slow tapering, it is done all the time, even with highly addictive benzos.
Okay, now i'm gunna hear a bunch of sh*t from the brilliant scientific minds at P.Babble. Don't waste your time, as i will simply ignore anything said! ENOUGH SAID!
-Monte
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 15:21:56
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on September 27, 2006, at 14:39:39
What good is it if people are only given some inaccurate and rosey picture of a drug's performance and lack of side effects?
The internet is full of controversy over effexor.
Is this just all in people's heads? Do hundreds of thousands of people just make up nonsence?Of course people can gain benifit from effexor, but I just thing its necessary to know there can be an evil side to it.
Linkadge
Posted by Crazy Horse on September 27, 2006, at 16:56:29
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 15:21:56
> What good is it if people are only given some inaccurate and rosey picture of a drug's performance and lack of side effects?
>
> The internet is full of controversy over effexor.
> Is this just all in people's heads? Do hundreds of thousands of people just make up nonsence?
>
> Of course people can gain benifit from effexor, but I just thing its necessary to know there can be an evil side to it.
>
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>There is an Evil side to everything/everybody except for GOD. This includes you and I. Why insist on finding the evil/bad in everything? It's quite possible, and you do a good job of doing it..this is not an insult, it is actually a compliment to your intellectual ability to accomplish this. However (Just think about this) maybe it would behoove you and others to look for the GOOD in things..maybe it would be a more productive and positive change that would benifit you and others? You, with your intellegence and diligence could do a lot of good.
-Monte
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2006, at 17:21:18
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 15:21:56
> Of course people can gain benifit from effexor, but I just thing its necessary to know there can be an evil side to it.
I don't think it is necessary to use such hyperbole as to use the word "evil" to describe Effexor.
Well, I guess you feel the way you feel.
I was going to refer you to that balanced statement you made on the nicotine thread, but I don't think it would have much affect here. You seem very motivated.
So, what was your experience with Effexor?
What dosage did you work up to?
How would you describe your withdrawal experience?
How did you go about discontinuing it?
- Scott
Posted by Racer on September 27, 2006, at 18:30:44
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 15:21:56
> What good is it if people are only given some inaccurate and rosey picture of a drug's performance and lack of side effects?
>
> The internet is full of controversy over effexor.
> Is this just all in people's heads? Do hundreds of thousands of people just make up nonsence?
>
> Of course people can gain benifit from effexor, but I just thing its necessary to know there can be an evil side to it.
>
>By definition, there is no evil side to any of these drugs. "Evil" is a moral construct, and morality applies to humans only.
As for Effexor, it's like all the other drugs discussed on this board and others like it -- it's useful for some, less so for others. It can be uncomfortable to wean off for some people, less so for others. (And don't tell me that I don't understand: I weaned off 225mg after three years.)
Link, I'm sorry you don't feel that any of these medications have helped you. I know you'd put that more strongly, but I think that negativity has a lot to do with your depression AND with the cognitive distortions that feed that depression. There are no drugs that change pessimistic thoughts to optimistic thoughts, and there are no perfect drugs -- again, by definition, the only perfect drug would be entirely inert, since otherwise it's gonna come with side effects. What is out there is what's out there, and sad as it is that's what we have to choose from. You've chosen to reject all of the drugs available, which is your choice. For a lot of people, though, who have not made that choice, reading unrelievably negative assessments of these drugs -- especially when it includes hyperbole about the permanent damage they can do -- really isn't all that helpful. Arguing about the definition of addiction isn't all that helpful, either.
I'm impressed by your knowledge of these drugs, Linkadge. Lately, though, I find I read your posts much less frequently because I feel so saddened and angry at the attitude your posts seem to display.
Probably I shouldn't have read anything in this thread, either. I did.
I have a question for you, Link: are you working? Do you support yourself? I ask because that sort of thing can make a huge difference in the decision about whether or not to take these drugs. I know you're considerably younger than I am, and perhaps that perspective is why I have to take a broader, more balanced view of these drugs.
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 19:14:02
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on September 27, 2006, at 16:56:29
>Why insist on finding the evil/bad in everything?
Because it can hurt you.
The good in things only makes sence when you consider the evil in things. Ie, we could focus on how cigarette smokers have a lower incidence of parkinsons, but that is really inconsequential in the big picture.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 19:20:02
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month » linkadge, posted by SLS on September 27, 2006, at 17:21:18
>I don't think it is necessary to use such >hyperbole as to use the word "evil" to describe >Effexor.
Life is full of unecessary things.
>I was going to refer you to that balanced >statement you made on the nicotine thread, but I >don't think it would have much affect here. You >seem very motivated.
I am not saying that it is a completely useless drug with no theraputic effect. I am just saying that it comes with what a large number of people have described as an excrutiating withdrawl, thats all.
>So, what was your experience with Effexor?Well we can't go there. Lets just say I'm very fortunate that my dad keeps his guns well locked. (again, I don't want to transfer my experience onto others')
Linkadge
Posted by notfred on September 27, 2006, at 19:42:18
In reply to There is no evil to Effexor. » linkadge, posted by Racer on September 27, 2006, at 18:30:44
> Link, I'm sorry you don't feel that any of these medications have helped you. I know you'd put that more strongly, but I think that negativity has a lot to do with your depression AND with the cognitive distortions that feed that depression. There are no drugs that change pessimistic thoughts to optimistic thoughts, and there are no perfect drugs -- again, by definition, the only perfect drug would be entirely inert, since otherwise it's gonna come with side effects. What is out there is what's out there, and sad as it is that's what we have to choose from. You've chosen to reject all of the drugs available, which is your choice. For a lot of people, though, who have not made that choice, reading unrelievably negative assessments of these drugs -- especially when it includes hyperbole about the permanent damage they can do -- really isn't all that helpful. Arguing about the definition of addiction isn't all that helpful, either.Thank you Racer, this has bothered me for some time.
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 19:49:18
In reply to There is no evil to Effexor. » linkadge, posted by Racer on September 27, 2006, at 18:30:44
>By definition, there is no evil side to any of >these drugs. "Evil" is a moral construct, and >morality applies to humans only.
So, satan is not evil ?
>Link, I'm sorry you don't feel that any of these >medications have helped you. I know you'd put >that more strongly, but I think that negativity >has a lot to do with your depression AND with >the cognitive distortions that feed that >depression.Thats one possability. The other is that I am bitter for what I would consider a good reason.
>There are no drugs that change pessimistic >thoughts to optimistic thoughts, and there are >no perfect drugs
I would tend to disagree. How could any antidepressant work if it did not have the ability to change pessimistic thoughts to optimistic thoughts ?
>You've chosen to reject all of the drugs >available, which is your choice.
Well I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that they rejected me.
>For a lot of people, though, who have not made >that choice, reading unrelievably negative >assessments of these drugs -- especially when it >includes hyperbole about the permanent damage >they can do -- really isn't all that helpful.
Like I said, I am only describing what hundreds of thousands of other people worldwide have attested to, that effexor can be extrordinarily difficult to quit. If I am wrong, then so are hundreds of thousands of other people.
>Arguing about the definition of addiction isn't >all that helpful, either.
I think it is, because its the first word that comes to a lot of people's mind when considering the phenomnia. It is the medical comunity that has tried to reframe defintions in recent years in the advent of the unanticipated clinical burdon of effexor addiction.
>I'm impressed by your knowledge of these drugs, >Linkadge. Lately, though, I find I read your >posts much less frequently because I feel so >saddened and angry at the attitude your posts >seem to display.
I never asked anyone else to agree with me. Don't worry though, I will get banned soon enough. If you want to know what has made me bitter, it is the fact that my brain has a very difficult time processing the concept of unbitter in the absence of an ultrabiological sea of serotonin. I was never this chronically bitter before meds. Ever.
So, I think my attitude compliments my message.
>I have a question for you, Link: are you >working? Do you support yourself? I ask because >that sort of thing can make a huge difference in >the decision about whether or not to take these >drugs.
I currently work to pay for an education.
>I know you're considerably younger than I am, >and perhaps that perspective is why I have to >take a broader, more balanced view of these >drugs.Remember Jaroen ? He was the guy who suffered seemingly permantant movement problms related to Geodon. I say to him, keep telling your message. Does anyone say to him, "shut up, you're going to jinx it for the people who might need meds". Of course not. He was clearly messed up by the Geodon, and possably the only way that he can bring some resolution to his situation is by coming on here and warning about the dangers of the drug.
If we tell everybody who has had bad experiences on these drugs to shut up, and not share their experiences, then where are we going? I wouldn't want anyone else to go thought what Jaroen did.
Thats why, each and every signature, on one those petitions which warn about the dangers of effexor is important, becuase behind each signature, there is a face.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 20:01:06
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor., posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 19:49:18
Don't worry, its my last post for a long time.
I understand now how this board works now. It is a page for mutual support, and I can no longer do that.
My mother is almost dead. So much for the first rule of psychiarty.
I wish you better luck.See you, folks.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2006, at 20:54:02
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor., posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 20:01:06
This is an argument that has been had before.
Linkadge obviously contributes a huge amount here.
Noone has to agree with him 100%.
Lots of people have been damaged by drugs.
I can't see what the problem is.
Posted by notfred on September 27, 2006, at 21:14:31
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor. » linkadge, posted by Declan on September 27, 2006, at 20:54:02
A presistant negative outlook tends to assure one that more of the same is the natural course of things.
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