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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 12:20:48
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 10:41:25
Parnate has been associated in case reports to addiction and dose escalation. Most antidepressants are not associated with a self dose escalation, but there are drugs like parnate and amineptine as exceptions.
I found it was much harder to discontinue than other antidepressants, and it was the only antidepressant that gave me an immedate effect right after I took the tablets I felt better, that is not common with other AD's.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 12:24:40
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 12:11:06
My nondepressed friend took some of my parnate (told me about it later) and he too said he felt an immediate positive effect.
That immediate effect can be reinforcing. Interestingly parnate is the antidepressant that induces the most c-fos activity throughout the brain. Intermediate-early genes like c-fos can be activated by other drugs of addiction like stimulants.
Linkadge
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 12:51:05
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 12:24:40
I like how parnate makes me feel. It has relieved my depression, my social phobia, GAD, yea i feel good and "normal" for the 1st time in 25 years....Hmmmmm, maybe i'm addicted to it!?
I also like Food, Sex, Money, Sports, soda, playing with my children, reading, painting, talking to my friends, swimming, looking at pretty girls, sunshine, good movies, sleeping, working out, spending time with my wife, going to Church with my family, Christmas, snowfall, thunderstorms...all these things make me feel good also....so maybe i'm addicted to them too.
I'm just a freakin' addict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-CH
Posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 13:00:43
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 12:51:05
Please don't belittle the experience of those who have experienced addiction to this drug.
> I like how parnate makes me feel. It has relieved my depression, my social phobia, GAD, yea i feel good and "normal" for the 1st time in 25 years....Hmmmmm, maybe i'm addicted to it!?
>
> I also like Food, Sex, Money, Sports, soda, playing with my children, reading, painting, talking to my friends, swimming, looking at pretty girls, sunshine, good movies, sleeping, working out, spending time with my wife, going to Church with my family, Christmas, snowfall, thunderstorms...all these things make me feel good also....so maybe i'm addicted to them too.
>
> I'm just a freakin' addict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> -CH
Posted by ravenstorm on April 23, 2006, at 13:06:24
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 9:14:43
There are pubmed reports of parnate abuse and addiction, not just withdrawal problems.
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 13:10:00
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 13:00:43
> Please don't belittle the experience of those who have experienced addiction to this drug.
>
> > I like how parnate makes me feel. It has relieved my depression, my social phobia, GAD, yea i feel good and "normal" for the 1st time in 25 years....Hmmmmm, maybe i'm addicted to it!?
> >
> > I also like Food, Sex, Money, Sports, soda, playing with my children, reading, painting, talking to my friends, swimming, looking at pretty girls, sunshine, good movies, sleeping, working out, spending time with my wife, going to Church with my family, Christmas, snowfall, thunderstorms...all these things make me feel good also....so maybe i'm addicted to them too.
> >
> > I'm just a freakin' addict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > -CH
>
>
No...I'm sorry if you took it that way, that is/was not my intention. I'm just saying that for me Parnate makes me feel good vs. Bad for so many years, and just because something makes you feel good doesn't mean you are addicted to it.Also, as apposed to most other meds, it's true that you can feel Parnate kick in after about 1 hr. after you dose...but i see this as a good thing because the other sh*t never made me feel anything except for worse most of the time. So again, didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, just trying to make a point.
-CH
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:21:25
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 12:51:05
Obviously not everbody is going to have the problem of displaying addictive like behaviors in responce to parnate. But it is important to realize that the drug has been associated with certain behaviors that haven't been attributed to other antidepressants.
If you're doing fine then great, theres no problem.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:22:59
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » tygereyes, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 13:10:00
Nobody is trying to say that an antidepressant responce to parnate indicates that you are addicted to it.
Linkadge
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 14:04:40
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:22:59
> Nobody is trying to say that an antidepressant responce to parnate indicates that you are addicted to it.
>
> LinkadgeI know, I was just trying to make a point about addiction. What is the actual definition of addiction?
Example: I have a lot of friends who enjoy a few beers every once in awhile...maybe 3 or 4 beers at a BBQ, and they admit they enjoy the feeling, they like how it relaxes them...but they don't like to get Drunk. They might do this once a month...they are not addicts, I'm sure if they started to abuse it, (alcohol is highly addictive) they could become addicted to it. But, just enjoying a 3-4 beer buzz once a month doesn't make them addicts. Do you understand what i'm saying? Abuse, cravings, inability to control how much you take/drink, etc. this is addiction.
-Monte
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 14:11:59
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:22:59
> Nobody is trying to say that an antidepressant responce to parnate indicates that you are addicted to it.
>
> LinkadgeYea, I get too defensive when i hear negative things about Parnate...i feel like i have to defend it because it has helped me so much. I need to work on not getting so worked up and taking things personal. It's just a discussion afterall. Sorry. :)
Monte
Posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 15:06:14
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 14:11:59
This is why in my post i said it dident matter what people thought.I cant worry whether people believe me or not,i know my body,and i know psychoclical dependance like wanting to go on the internet,and i know physciscal dependance like my body shaking,my head feeling warped,nightmares,hysteria and such when off parnate,honestly i dont this is one thing i dont need clarification on,i know i am addicted to it.
No one is saying to discontiue the medication,or stop its use,so why some posters got so defensive i dont know,this is my experiance im sharing,if u read my post i did not say anythig negative about the med,or disway its use,i simply stated my situation.
I feel the intensiy of some of the posts after wasnt really warrented.
Posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 16:28:09
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 15:06:14
I agree.
I am (was?) both psychologically and physically addicted to it.
And I've been addicted to heroin so I THINK I KNOW WHAT ADDICTION LOOKS LIKE.
When I was on Parnate, I would up my dose when I stopped feeling buzzed. When I went off of it, I craved it and would often find myself taking it to get high - I didn't take it regularly at this point, maybe once every few days, to maximize the high it would give me. But I'd take a maga-dose of it and even snort it.
I have been off of it now for two weeks almost. I CRAVE it. I CRAVE that amphetamine feeling like I used to crave Adderall and crystal meth when those were my drugs of choice. I LOVE swallowing or snorting mega-doses of Parnate (I am so lucky I've never had a hypertensive crisis) and staying up all night ... even when I was taking it regularly, I was constantly lying to my doctor and telling her it wasn't working so that she would prescribe me more.
THAT, my friends, is addiction.
No one is saying that because you take Parnate you are addicted to it. I have friends who shoot heroin every now and then who aren't addicts. But to claim that it is NOT POSSIBLE to be addicted to Parnate? You're wrong. Absolutely wrong. There is a body of literature that has discussed Parnate addiction and, looking at its pharmacological properties (as link pointed out), it makes sense.
Truth be told, I am jealous of people who can take heroin, Adderall, Parnate, whatever, without becoming addicted. But if a chemical is addictive, I will become addicted to it. That is the beauty of polysubstance dependence - it doesn't matter what the drug is; if it gets me high, it will get me addicted in no time.
> This is why in my post i said it dident matter what people thought.I cant worry whether people believe me or not,i know my body,and i know psychoclical dependance like wanting to go on the internet,and i know physciscal dependance like my body shaking,my head feeling warped,nightmares,hysteria and such when off parnate,honestly i dont this is one thing i dont need clarification on,i know i am addicted to it.
>
> No one is saying to discontiue the medication,or stop its use,so why some posters got so defensive i dont know,this is my experiance im sharing,if u read my post i did not say anythig negative about the med,or disway its use,i simply stated my situation.
>
>
> I feel the intensiy of some of the posts after wasnt really warrented.
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 16:37:43
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by ravenstorm on April 23, 2006, at 13:06:24
> There are pubmed reports of parnate abuse and addiction, not just withdrawal problems.
I know. I was just curious whether Tom was confusing dependence with addiction. He seemed to be describing dependence without addiction.
- Scott
Posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 16:37:43
Woops I really took the lid of with this post
I'd firstly like to say I'm sorry if anyone got upset in response to this thread, I didn't mean to cause such controversy!
Secondly some people seem to think that I'm saying Parnate is addictive
That’s not what I'm saying!
I probably gave that impression in my first post
What I should have said is that I’ve heard Parnate can be addictive
What I was really wonderin is are Parnate withdrawals are notably worse than any other drug.I have to say that my experience is similar to Linkadges, my depression has improved after just one dose
Now I’ve got your attention I’ll briefly talk about my situation
I currently live in the UK
I’m self medicating with Parnate, I’m currently on 10mgsI know it’s a very bad idea to take MAOIs without a doctors permission
Unfortunately my situation is fairly desperate at the moment.Anyone who’s experienced UK mental health "care" will know what I mean!
Anyway take care all and remember were here to help each other, not argue :)
Posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:09:38
In reply to Parnate.........., posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
a
Posted by Caedmon on April 23, 2006, at 17:10:08
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 16:37:43
From what I've read about Parnate withdrawals following discontinuation, they mimick withdrawals from amphetamines. So, my *guess* is that it is probably on par with amphetamines?
I've heard it said that 10mg tranylcypromine = 1mg dextroamphetamine, but that isn't a lot, so most doses would be equivalent to generally insignificant amounts of amphetamine (from a substance abuse standpoint). Although I've never felt ANY speedy effects from Parnate. So far.
Thing is, I don't know how much (if any) tolerance is common to Parnate. Here, I'm talking about tolerance to therapeutic effects. I know that people on stimulants often will take holidays off their meds to reduce tolerance, I'm wondering if the same is required of Parnate or not. (I've read that it doesn't actually metabolize IN TO amphetamine, just has some of those qualities, so I don't know.)
- C
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 18:18:58
In reply to Parnate.........., posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
> Woops I really took the lid of with this post
>
> I'd firstly like to say I'm sorry if anyone got upset in response to this thread, I didn't mean to cause such controversy!
>
> Secondly some people seem to think that I'm saying Parnate is addictive
>
> That’s not what I'm saying!
>
> I probably gave that impression in my first post
>
> What I should have said is that I’ve heard Parnate can be addictive
> What I was really wonderin is are Parnate withdrawals are notably worse than any other drug.
>
> I have to say that my experience is similar to Linkadges, my depression has improved after just one dose
>
> Now I’ve got your attention I’ll briefly talk about my situation
>
> I currently live in the UK
> I’m self medicating with Parnate, I’m currently on 10mgs
>
> I know it’s a very bad idea to take MAOIs without a doctors permission
> Unfortunately my situation is fairly desperate at the moment.
>
> Anyone who’s experienced UK mental health "care" will know what I mean!
>
> Anyway take care all and remember were here to help each other, not argue :)
>Thanks Tom, I agree with you that it can be addictive. And, it was cool of you to re-post and make yourself clear. We are here to help eachother...that's what it's all about to me. Take care. :)
Monte
Posted by james_glasgow on April 24, 2006, at 3:25:37
In reply to Parnate.........., posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
Hi Tom
As you are taking Parnate without a doctors prescription I would be especially careful of the drug and food interactions and of the dose you use. This is in case you develop a reaction that takes you to the Casualty Department.
I stopped taking it on the last occassion as I developed a hypertensive reaction after taking the entire days dose as a single dose in the morning in an attempt to reduce insomnia. The hospital were most unfriendly, thought I was trying to commit suicide, then thought it was migrane when I began to vomit. Then they tried to give me serotonin syndrome with an injection on Tramadol for the headache which I refused and they did not like that either.
Not trying to scare you but they sent me home with nothing for the headache or the high bp at 160/120 and I ended taking nifedipine I had in the house that worked within 15 minutes. I wish I had taken it in the first place rather than visit the hospital.
I suppose it was just another case of NHS house officers not having a clue.
Take care
James
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 24, 2006, at 4:19:36
In reply to Re: Parnate.........., posted by james_glasgow on April 24, 2006, at 3:25:37
How on Earth can those docs be so unknowledgable???!!! And even if they didn't know, don't they have med databases for that sort of thing??
Its crazy! I used to be a fan of the NHS, but with our collective (and mine) experiences of it re: mental health 'care' I hate it. I guess we could all form a pressure group! Hahaha Well, trouble is I'm not even motivated enough to get a crappy job!! Sigh.
How do we have any hope of getting better?
Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2006, at 9:37:44
In reply to Re: Parnate.......... » james_glasgow, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 24, 2006, at 4:19:36
Its been a big hangup and source of significant arument. Ever since people had the feeling that they could not stop things like paroxetine dispite their strong belief that the illness had lived out its course, people have argued the "non-addictive" definitions of antidepressants.
I guess the hallmark of addiction is in feeling compelled to break with treatment shceduling, dosage and administration in order to give your neucleus accumbens a bit of a kick.
The real test would be to see wheather or not the neucleus accumbens lights up in responce to a one time dose of parnate.
Every AD I've taken made me feel much much worse after the first few doses, but parnate I felt something good right away.
Doctors still claim that antidepressants aren't addictive, and don't produce dependance. In the sence of dose escalation, most people don't escalate SSRI's or TCA's, but people have been known to escalate parnate, amineptine, and perhaps others, and crushing and snorting parnate is consistent with other accounts that I've heard of parante.
****I'm sure its possible to gain theraputic effect from parnate without abusing it****, but when you have that dual effect, its hard to know which effect is doing what. Suppose it pooped out theraputically, then one might still feel that they can get an effect from the recreational side of the drug.
Linkadge
Posted by willyee on April 24, 2006, at 10:56:27
In reply to Re: Parnate.........., posted by linkadge on April 24, 2006, at 9:37:44
havent heard of anyone snorting parnate and it doesent work,i read somewhere some things u cant snort due to something about it not cathing or something,im not technical but the post was.
Posted by ed_uk on April 24, 2006, at 13:28:50
In reply to Re: Parnate.........., posted by james_glasgow on April 24, 2006, at 3:25:37
Hi
Having some nifedipine available makes sense to me. A&E docs are useless in my experience.
It's important to have a blood pressure monitor at home. You can take one 5mg nifedipine capsule if a hypertensive crisis occurs. The dose can be repeated after 30 minutes if BP is still very high. The capsule can be chewed and swallowed. There is no reason to hold the contents of the capsule in the mouth. Avoid the temptation to take a high dose of nifedipine, it might be harmful.
I also recommend 10mg diazepam for the anxiety created by the hypertensive crisis, treating the anxiety with 10mg diazepam should help to lower BP.
Ed
Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2006, at 17:06:27
In reply to Re: Parnate.........., posted by willyee on April 24, 2006, at 10:56:27
You could be right. Never tried myself, just heard of a friend trying it. Don't know how effective it is at getting somebody high.
Linkadge
Posted by Caedmon on April 24, 2006, at 18:38:55
In reply to Re: Parnate.........., posted by linkadge on April 24, 2006, at 9:37:44
>> I guess the hallmark of addiction is in feeling compelled to break with treatment shceduling, dosage and administration in order to give your neucleus accumbens a bit of a kick.>>
So if you increase the dose despite a therapeutic response at a lower dose? Would you say that this is sort of a "red flag" to addiction? I'm trying to understand the topic since I am now taking Parnate.
- C
Posted by linkadge on April 25, 2006, at 16:02:29
In reply to Re: Parnate.......... » linkadge, posted by Caedmon on April 24, 2006, at 18:38:55
If you were adjusting dosing and administration by yourself without a doctors knowledge that would probably be a flag.
As far as poopout, nobody really knows why it happens, and it may just be that it is the same sort of phenomina as with regular drug addiction. I mean, what is the difference between tollerance to prozac and tollerance to cocaine? I suppose tollerance to cocaine could happen faster.Some doctors find it a little disturbing when they need to keep upping their patients' antidepressant in order to achieve a similar effect. The phenomina is not unheard of. Lots of people on effexor for instance, find themselves slowly creeping from 75mg to 450mg. Some people do fine on a fixed dose for a long time though.
I'm not sure what to think, about dosage escalation. If you have reason to believe that a a dosage increase could benifit long term, then it could be ok. If however, you see that you are requiring regular and predictable dosage increases, that might not be so good.
I don't think that dose escalation is really all that common for parnate's theraputic effect. I guess you need to know the difference between a theraputic poop out, and the desire to increase it to get more of a kick.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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