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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 6:03:01
Hi all
I know Parnate can be addictive, but I'm just wondering how addictive it actually is?
I didn't have a big problem withdrawing from Dexedrine, despite being told it was addictive by a succesion of UK Doctors!
Is it notably worse to withdraw from than other drugs?
Posted by james_glasgow on April 23, 2006, at 6:40:30
In reply to How addictive is Parnate?, posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 6:03:01
> Hi all
>
> I know Parnate can be addictive, but I'm just wondering how addictive it actually is?
>
> I didn't have a big problem withdrawing from Dexedrine, despite being told it was addictive by a succesion of UK Doctors!
>
> Is it notably worse to withdraw from than other drugs?
Hi TomI have taken Parnate on 3 occasions each for approximately 6 months. The first time I discontinued the drug I developed some hypochondrical psychotic symptoms that lasted a few days and were quite severe maybe because I did not taper the dose ( I was taking 10mg TID). However, I have never had any withdrawal symptoms similar to the SSRI's such as the electric shocks or sensory distrubance. But to answer your question I never had any craving for Parnate.
I have taken almost all of the anti-depressants on the UK market and have recently been diagnosed Bipolar I by my consultant after 13 years of poor mental health, so now on mood stabiliser. I would be interested to know how you got a UK doctor to prescribe Dexedrine. I have been on many combinations that many people would think you could not get in the UK, but I have a degree in Pharmacology and Chemistry and I think they let me try them simply because I knew more about the drugs than they did.
However, I have never brought up the topic of stimulants as I thought there would be little chance of obtaining a prescription.
Sorry if I sound a little garrbled in the middle of paroxetine withdrawal at the moment.
Cheers
James
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 9:14:43
In reply to How addictive is Parnate?, posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 6:03:01
> Hi all
>
> I know Parnate can be addictive, but I'm just wondering how addictive it actually is?How do you define "addictive"?
Addiction to Parnate is uncommon. I've never seen it. However, there are withdrawal effects if it is discontinued too rapidly. This is not addiction.
- Scott
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 9:48:05
In reply to How addictive is Parnate?, posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 6:03:01
> Hi all
>
> I know Parnate can be addictive, but I'm just wondering how addictive it actually is?
>
> I didn't have a big problem withdrawing from Dexedrine, despite being told it was addictive by a succesion of UK Doctors!
>
> Is it notably worse to withdraw from than other drugs?I think most of what people hear about Parnate being addictive is not true. Addicted to what? After the initial Amphetamine like kick which lasts about a week (for me) you don't get a high from it. What you do get is a steady antidepressant and antianxiety effect. I've been on it for almost 3 months, and this talk of addiction makes me laugh. Seriously, some people feel good when they take their prozac or zoloft, so can they become addicted to these meds as well? I can see being addicted to stimulants that give you a lift for a long period of time. But parnates "kick" is short lived, and it doesn't return by increasing the dose, so i guess anythings possible but i just don't believe in "Parnate Addiction."
Posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 10:41:25
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » Tom Twilight, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 9:48:05
I disagree totaly,unless you have a plan,a new drug to move on tooo,getting off parnate is a night mare,laeast for me,im totaly addicted to this medication,definatly.And wih all do respect no one can tell me other wise.
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 11:01:33
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 10:41:25
> I disagree totaly,unless you have a plan,a new drug to move on tooo,getting off parnate is a night mare,laeast for me,im totaly addicted to this medication,definatly.And wih all do respect no one can tell me other wise.
Would you say that you have a physiological dependence on the drug rather than having cravings or a psychological compulsion to use it habitually?
- Scott
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 11:24:58
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 10:41:25
> I disagree totaly,unless you have a plan,a new drug to move on tooo,getting off parnate is a night mare,laeast for me,im totaly addicted to this medication,definatly.And wih all do respect no one can tell me other wise.
I'm not trying to argue, okay? But are you addicted or dependant? I'm sorry you are having a hard time Tom. I was on Parnate in 1997 and a high dose at that 140 mgs. I tapered off without any problems at all. I guess everybody's different..different body chemistries. I wish you the best Tom.
-Monte
Posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 12:11:06
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » Tom Twilight, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 9:48:05
I was (am) addicted to Parnate.
The amphetamine-like feeling lasted several weeks - when it stopped, I upped my dosage so I'd feel it again.
Just like any amphetamine addict.
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 12:20:48
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 10:41:25
Parnate has been associated in case reports to addiction and dose escalation. Most antidepressants are not associated with a self dose escalation, but there are drugs like parnate and amineptine as exceptions.
I found it was much harder to discontinue than other antidepressants, and it was the only antidepressant that gave me an immedate effect right after I took the tablets I felt better, that is not common with other AD's.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 12:24:40
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 12:11:06
My nondepressed friend took some of my parnate (told me about it later) and he too said he felt an immediate positive effect.
That immediate effect can be reinforcing. Interestingly parnate is the antidepressant that induces the most c-fos activity throughout the brain. Intermediate-early genes like c-fos can be activated by other drugs of addiction like stimulants.
Linkadge
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 12:51:05
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 12:24:40
I like how parnate makes me feel. It has relieved my depression, my social phobia, GAD, yea i feel good and "normal" for the 1st time in 25 years....Hmmmmm, maybe i'm addicted to it!?
I also like Food, Sex, Money, Sports, soda, playing with my children, reading, painting, talking to my friends, swimming, looking at pretty girls, sunshine, good movies, sleeping, working out, spending time with my wife, going to Church with my family, Christmas, snowfall, thunderstorms...all these things make me feel good also....so maybe i'm addicted to them too.
I'm just a freakin' addict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-CH
Posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 13:00:43
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 12:51:05
Please don't belittle the experience of those who have experienced addiction to this drug.
> I like how parnate makes me feel. It has relieved my depression, my social phobia, GAD, yea i feel good and "normal" for the 1st time in 25 years....Hmmmmm, maybe i'm addicted to it!?
>
> I also like Food, Sex, Money, Sports, soda, playing with my children, reading, painting, talking to my friends, swimming, looking at pretty girls, sunshine, good movies, sleeping, working out, spending time with my wife, going to Church with my family, Christmas, snowfall, thunderstorms...all these things make me feel good also....so maybe i'm addicted to them too.
>
> I'm just a freakin' addict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> -CH
Posted by ravenstorm on April 23, 2006, at 13:06:24
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 9:14:43
There are pubmed reports of parnate abuse and addiction, not just withdrawal problems.
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 13:10:00
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 13:00:43
> Please don't belittle the experience of those who have experienced addiction to this drug.
>
> > I like how parnate makes me feel. It has relieved my depression, my social phobia, GAD, yea i feel good and "normal" for the 1st time in 25 years....Hmmmmm, maybe i'm addicted to it!?
> >
> > I also like Food, Sex, Money, Sports, soda, playing with my children, reading, painting, talking to my friends, swimming, looking at pretty girls, sunshine, good movies, sleeping, working out, spending time with my wife, going to Church with my family, Christmas, snowfall, thunderstorms...all these things make me feel good also....so maybe i'm addicted to them too.
> >
> > I'm just a freakin' addict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > -CH
>
>
No...I'm sorry if you took it that way, that is/was not my intention. I'm just saying that for me Parnate makes me feel good vs. Bad for so many years, and just because something makes you feel good doesn't mean you are addicted to it.Also, as apposed to most other meds, it's true that you can feel Parnate kick in after about 1 hr. after you dose...but i see this as a good thing because the other sh*t never made me feel anything except for worse most of the time. So again, didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, just trying to make a point.
-CH
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:21:25
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 12:51:05
Obviously not everbody is going to have the problem of displaying addictive like behaviors in responce to parnate. But it is important to realize that the drug has been associated with certain behaviors that haven't been attributed to other antidepressants.
If you're doing fine then great, theres no problem.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:22:59
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » tygereyes, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 13:10:00
Nobody is trying to say that an antidepressant responce to parnate indicates that you are addicted to it.
Linkadge
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 14:04:40
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:22:59
> Nobody is trying to say that an antidepressant responce to parnate indicates that you are addicted to it.
>
> LinkadgeI know, I was just trying to make a point about addiction. What is the actual definition of addiction?
Example: I have a lot of friends who enjoy a few beers every once in awhile...maybe 3 or 4 beers at a BBQ, and they admit they enjoy the feeling, they like how it relaxes them...but they don't like to get Drunk. They might do this once a month...they are not addicts, I'm sure if they started to abuse it, (alcohol is highly addictive) they could become addicted to it. But, just enjoying a 3-4 beer buzz once a month doesn't make them addicts. Do you understand what i'm saying? Abuse, cravings, inability to control how much you take/drink, etc. this is addiction.
-Monte
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 14:11:59
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2006, at 13:22:59
> Nobody is trying to say that an antidepressant responce to parnate indicates that you are addicted to it.
>
> LinkadgeYea, I get too defensive when i hear negative things about Parnate...i feel like i have to defend it because it has helped me so much. I need to work on not getting so worked up and taking things personal. It's just a discussion afterall. Sorry. :)
Monte
Posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 15:06:14
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate? » linkadge, posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 14:11:59
This is why in my post i said it dident matter what people thought.I cant worry whether people believe me or not,i know my body,and i know psychoclical dependance like wanting to go on the internet,and i know physciscal dependance like my body shaking,my head feeling warped,nightmares,hysteria and such when off parnate,honestly i dont this is one thing i dont need clarification on,i know i am addicted to it.
No one is saying to discontiue the medication,or stop its use,so why some posters got so defensive i dont know,this is my experiance im sharing,if u read my post i did not say anythig negative about the med,or disway its use,i simply stated my situation.
I feel the intensiy of some of the posts after wasnt really warrented.
Posted by tygereyes on April 23, 2006, at 16:28:09
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by willyee on April 23, 2006, at 15:06:14
I agree.
I am (was?) both psychologically and physically addicted to it.
And I've been addicted to heroin so I THINK I KNOW WHAT ADDICTION LOOKS LIKE.
When I was on Parnate, I would up my dose when I stopped feeling buzzed. When I went off of it, I craved it and would often find myself taking it to get high - I didn't take it regularly at this point, maybe once every few days, to maximize the high it would give me. But I'd take a maga-dose of it and even snort it.
I have been off of it now for two weeks almost. I CRAVE it. I CRAVE that amphetamine feeling like I used to crave Adderall and crystal meth when those were my drugs of choice. I LOVE swallowing or snorting mega-doses of Parnate (I am so lucky I've never had a hypertensive crisis) and staying up all night ... even when I was taking it regularly, I was constantly lying to my doctor and telling her it wasn't working so that she would prescribe me more.
THAT, my friends, is addiction.
No one is saying that because you take Parnate you are addicted to it. I have friends who shoot heroin every now and then who aren't addicts. But to claim that it is NOT POSSIBLE to be addicted to Parnate? You're wrong. Absolutely wrong. There is a body of literature that has discussed Parnate addiction and, looking at its pharmacological properties (as link pointed out), it makes sense.
Truth be told, I am jealous of people who can take heroin, Adderall, Parnate, whatever, without becoming addicted. But if a chemical is addictive, I will become addicted to it. That is the beauty of polysubstance dependence - it doesn't matter what the drug is; if it gets me high, it will get me addicted in no time.
> This is why in my post i said it dident matter what people thought.I cant worry whether people believe me or not,i know my body,and i know psychoclical dependance like wanting to go on the internet,and i know physciscal dependance like my body shaking,my head feeling warped,nightmares,hysteria and such when off parnate,honestly i dont this is one thing i dont need clarification on,i know i am addicted to it.
>
> No one is saying to discontiue the medication,or stop its use,so why some posters got so defensive i dont know,this is my experiance im sharing,if u read my post i did not say anythig negative about the med,or disway its use,i simply stated my situation.
>
>
> I feel the intensiy of some of the posts after wasnt really warrented.
Posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 16:37:43
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by ravenstorm on April 23, 2006, at 13:06:24
> There are pubmed reports of parnate abuse and addiction, not just withdrawal problems.
I know. I was just curious whether Tom was confusing dependence with addiction. He seemed to be describing dependence without addiction.
- Scott
Posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 16:37:43
Woops I really took the lid of with this post
I'd firstly like to say I'm sorry if anyone got upset in response to this thread, I didn't mean to cause such controversy!
Secondly some people seem to think that I'm saying Parnate is addictive
That’s not what I'm saying!
I probably gave that impression in my first post
What I should have said is that I’ve heard Parnate can be addictive
What I was really wonderin is are Parnate withdrawals are notably worse than any other drug.I have to say that my experience is similar to Linkadges, my depression has improved after just one dose
Now I’ve got your attention I’ll briefly talk about my situation
I currently live in the UK
I’m self medicating with Parnate, I’m currently on 10mgsI know it’s a very bad idea to take MAOIs without a doctors permission
Unfortunately my situation is fairly desperate at the moment.Anyone who’s experienced UK mental health "care" will know what I mean!
Anyway take care all and remember were here to help each other, not argue :)
Posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:09:38
In reply to Parnate.........., posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
a
Posted by Caedmon on April 23, 2006, at 17:10:08
In reply to Re: How addictive is Parnate?, posted by SLS on April 23, 2006, at 16:37:43
From what I've read about Parnate withdrawals following discontinuation, they mimick withdrawals from amphetamines. So, my *guess* is that it is probably on par with amphetamines?
I've heard it said that 10mg tranylcypromine = 1mg dextroamphetamine, but that isn't a lot, so most doses would be equivalent to generally insignificant amounts of amphetamine (from a substance abuse standpoint). Although I've never felt ANY speedy effects from Parnate. So far.
Thing is, I don't know how much (if any) tolerance is common to Parnate. Here, I'm talking about tolerance to therapeutic effects. I know that people on stimulants often will take holidays off their meds to reduce tolerance, I'm wondering if the same is required of Parnate or not. (I've read that it doesn't actually metabolize IN TO amphetamine, just has some of those qualities, so I don't know.)
- C
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 23, 2006, at 18:18:58
In reply to Parnate.........., posted by Tom Twilight on April 23, 2006, at 17:07:35
> Woops I really took the lid of with this post
>
> I'd firstly like to say I'm sorry if anyone got upset in response to this thread, I didn't mean to cause such controversy!
>
> Secondly some people seem to think that I'm saying Parnate is addictive
>
> That’s not what I'm saying!
>
> I probably gave that impression in my first post
>
> What I should have said is that I’ve heard Parnate can be addictive
> What I was really wonderin is are Parnate withdrawals are notably worse than any other drug.
>
> I have to say that my experience is similar to Linkadges, my depression has improved after just one dose
>
> Now I’ve got your attention I’ll briefly talk about my situation
>
> I currently live in the UK
> I’m self medicating with Parnate, I’m currently on 10mgs
>
> I know it’s a very bad idea to take MAOIs without a doctors permission
> Unfortunately my situation is fairly desperate at the moment.
>
> Anyone who’s experienced UK mental health "care" will know what I mean!
>
> Anyway take care all and remember were here to help each other, not argue :)
>Thanks Tom, I agree with you that it can be addictive. And, it was cool of you to re-post and make yourself clear. We are here to help eachother...that's what it's all about to me. Take care. :)
Monte
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