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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Questionmark on March 12, 2006, at 23:56:07
(...or, if you will, OCPD). And i mean aside from SSRIs, which along with atypical antipsychotics (well at least risperidone, the only one i've tried) just numb me to the point of extreme anhedonia yet only negligable effects on my perfectionism.
i know, there's probably nothing, but i thought i'd ask. Any possibilities even?
How about phenytoin, or low-dose amisulpride or something?
Posted by psychopharmacon on March 13, 2006, at 2:56:24
In reply to Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionism?, posted by Questionmark on March 12, 2006, at 23:56:07
A low dose amisulpride helps me with this problem.
Posted by Questionmark on March 13, 2006, at 3:20:50
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis » Questionmark, posted by psychopharmacon on March 13, 2006, at 2:56:24
> A low dose amisulpride helps me with this problem.
REALLY?! Are you on anything else?
Would you mind elaborating as well? I.e., how exactly does it help.Thank you!!
Posted by psychopharmacon on March 13, 2006, at 3:42:07
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis » psychopharmacon, posted by Questionmark on March 13, 2006, at 3:20:50
I'm not on any other meds, but amisulpride helps me to a certain degree. I makes me care less about stupid details. It doesn't remove all the perfectionism though, but I think that's impossible when it's a part of your personality.
Posted by RetiredYoung on March 13, 2006, at 7:05:20
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis » Questionmark, posted by psychopharmacon on March 13, 2006, at 3:42:07
Zyprexa. (10mg/day for me). It has made me so apathetic that I'm thinking of reducing my dosage.
Jim
Posted by gardenergirl on March 13, 2006, at 8:03:40
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis, posted by RetiredYoung on March 13, 2006, at 7:05:20
I know someone who found some relief from Luvox. OCPD is rough, though. It can be pretty entrenched.
Good luck!
gg
Posted by Racer on March 13, 2006, at 14:02:03
In reply to Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionism?, posted by Questionmark on March 12, 2006, at 23:56:07
I'm not a perfectionist, but since I play one in real life, I can tell you that ain't no drug ever done all that much for it directly, but most of those that reduce my anxiety and treat my depression will help a lot, indirectly. The problem I get is that I go from one extreme to the other: perfectionistic, to totally apathetic and amotivated. And even when I'm apathetic and amotivated, I can still get a goose into perfectionism. {sigh}
What's helped much more is therapy, and right now I'm carrying around a little notebook in which I note down any perfectionism that I'm aware of, and anything I'm aware of doing to counter it. It's obviously more labor intensive than a pill, and it's not fixing the problem, just helping me be more aware of it, but I kinda feel as though it helps. (Although I'm not doing it perfectly -- ARGH! lol)
Adequate sleep, healthy diet, and the more sedating ADs that I've taken have helped, though. I am trying to think -- maybe the combo of Effexor and Prozac was most helpful? Can't quite remember, but I think it was...
Sorry I can't help more. But therapy really has helped more than anything else -- mostly because it has me asking myself, 'Why is this so important? Why do I need to be perfect in this?"
Good luck.
Posted by Phillipa on March 13, 2006, at 19:54:05
In reply to I'm *not* a perfectionist, but... » Questionmark, posted by Racer on March 13, 2006, at 14:02:03
Someone once said to me when I was younger when you die the dust will still be there. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on March 16, 2006, at 2:46:07
In reply to Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionism?, posted by Questionmark on March 12, 2006, at 23:56:07
> (...or, if you will, OCPD). And i mean aside from SSRIs, which along with atypical antipsychotics (well at least risperidone, the only one i've tried) just numb me to the point of extreme anhedonia yet only negligable effects on my perfectionism.
> i know, there's probably nothing, but i thought i'd ask. Any possibilities even?
> How about phenytoin, or low-dose amisulpride or something?I think its already been suggested, but have you tried Luvox -- its quite effective for OCD, esp at doses of 400mg, not to mention it is the most sedating of SSRIs, so it would be a little "numbing" I suppose. You really don't want anhedonia or disreality, they're not fun.
-- Jay
Posted by Questionmark on March 21, 2006, at 23:15:00
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis » Questionmark, posted by psychopharmacon on March 13, 2006, at 3:42:07
> I'm not on any other meds, but amisulpride helps me to a certain degree. I makes me care less about stupid details. It doesn't remove all the perfectionism though, but I think that's impossible when it's a part of your personality.
That is EXcellent! Wow. That description makes it sound perfect for this problem. That is EXACTLY what i need-- to care less about the "STUPID details"!!
i mean, to care less about the stupid details but not lose too much perfectionism-- so as to (1)not feel like i'm losing myself too much (at least in ways i wouldn't want) and (2)to not be so numbed and dumbed down or what have you so much that you hardly care about anything (but only because you hardly CAN care about anything or feel any pleasure or motivation & focus at all)-- that is exactly what i want. i really wonder if low-dose amisulpride could do that for me. That would be amazing.
Bytheway, i agree with the last thing you said. It does seem like it'd be impossible for any med to make an extreme perfectionist something of a non-perfectionist-- short of taking something that would give extreme side effects and almost completely changes who the person is.Anyhow, thank you so much for the input.
Posted by psychopharmacon on March 22, 2006, at 0:42:13
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis » psychopharmacon, posted by Questionmark on March 21, 2006, at 23:15:00
Yes, one of the great things about amisulpride, is that it doesn't make me numb. It also causes me to be more focused and concentrated (very convenient when you have social phobia). It has been a life-saver for me.
Just remember to add Dostinex to counteract side effects. Most of the babblers that have taken amisulpride, experienced raised prolactin levels (it's reversible). This can among other things lead to complete loss of sex drive. Dostinex normalizes prolactin levels, and it's also a dopamine agonist. Some people even report good results using high doses of Dostinex for depression or anhedonia.
Posted by Questionmark on April 7, 2006, at 2:11:58
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis » Questionmark, posted by yxibow on March 16, 2006, at 2:46:07
Ah, g*d! See, i really want to reply to all of these posts but i don't know if i should because that would take too much time but i really really want to.. and... that was supposed to be an obvious example of how i'm even being overly perfectionistic with this thread and post, but i don't think it was necessarily that obvious-- and that's irritating too cuz, no i must shut up.
Okay, first, gardenergirl wrote:
"I know someone who found some relief from Luvox. OCPD is rough, though. It can be pretty entrenched. Good luck!"
Yes, it is rough. And yes, it can be ridiculously entrenched. Thank you for the good luck.RetiredYoung wrote:
"Zyprexa. (10mg/day for me). It has made me so apathetic that I'm thinking of reducing my dosage."
Yeah, see, that is what i definitely Don't want. i'd rather deal with my perfectionism than antipsychotic-induced apathy and deadness.
And Racer wrote the following:
> >"I'm not a perfectionist, but since I play one in real life, I can tell you that ain't no drug ever done all that much for it directly, but most of those that reduce my anxiety and treat my depression will help a lot, indirectly. The problem I get is that I go from one extreme to the other: perfectionistic, to totally apathetic and amotivated. And even when I'm apathetic and amotivated, I can still get a goose into perfectionism. {sigh}
> >"What's helped much more is therapy, and right now I'm carrying around a little notebook in which I note down any perfectionism that I'm aware of, and anything I'm aware of doing to counter it. It's obviously more labor intensive than a pill, and it's not fixing the problem, just helping me be more aware of it, but I kinda feel as though it helps. (Although I'm not doing it perfectly -- ARGH! lol)
> >"Adequate sleep, healthy diet, and the more sedating ADs that I've taken have helped, though. I am trying to think -- maybe the combo of Effexor and Prozac was most helpful? Can't quite remember, but I think it was...
> >"Sorry I can't help more. But therapy really has helped more than anything else -- mostly because it has me asking myself, 'Why is this so important? Why do I need to be perfect in this?'
> >"Good luck."Yeah, no medication has ever significantly helped me with my perfectionism either-- other than maybe some of those that just turned me into an unfeeling, worthless zombie to some extent, which, again, is much worse than even dealing with the full-fledged perfectionism because at least in the latter case i'm alive (sort of). BUUuut, i still have the hope-- though not the expectation-- that there is some med(s) out there that can take away the perfectionism at least enough so i could naturally be okay with what is "good enough," so to speak (er, something).
i did have therapy for awhile (about a year) in which most of it was focused on this problem, and i believe my psychologist was really good (sincere, smart, knowledgable, etc.), but unfortunately it did not seem to have helped much. i have to admit that i unfortunately did not put much of his advice into practice very often, however.
The notebook thing you mentioned is interesting. i kind of cringe a bit to think about that though since it would be so, as you said "labor intensive," and time-consuming. And god knows that time is something i have very little of (not really because i'm all that busy, but because i use up so d*mn much of it with overly perfectionistic behavior-- for lack of a more accurate phrase ultimately). But maybe it would be more helpful than i would guess. i'd like to try it. i'm gonna try to try it.
Thank you very much for your input... and everyone else as well-- thank you.{ SO Sorry for how long this was and i'm sorry it took me so long to reply. i've been planning on it for awhile now but never got around (story of my life). i hope you all might still get around to reading it though. }
Posted by Laurie Beth on April 8, 2006, at 13:19:51
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis, posted by Questionmark on April 7, 2006, at 2:11:58
Well, Questionmark and Racer, I'm right there with you. I have moved between excessive perfectionism, apathy/anhedonia, and - rarely - just the right balance. During my last pregnancy I felt great in this respect - productive, efficient, but not so hung up on the details that it made me incapable of action or ruined my pleasure in what I had accomplished. Then, a couple of months after the baby was born (and after a Zoloft increase at birth), I became so apathetic I could barely get out of bed.
Racer writes:
'But therapy really has helped more than anything else -- mostly because it has me asking myself, 'Why is this so important? Why do I need to be perfect in this?"'
The thing for me, though, is that focusing on perfectionism doesn't necessary do anything to overcome it ... or if it does, it induces a more generalized apathy. For example, I found myself becoming perfectionistic about putting baby outfits together (oxytocin is known to induce obsessiveness, BTW, and I was/am nursing). I knew this was stupid, but all I could really do was tell myself, "this doesn't matter that much." But then I'd start thinking, none of it really matters that much. I mean, why do babies have to wear cute clothes anyway? What does it matter if their clothes are too big, or the pants are too short, or the outfits don't match, or whatever? A LOT of stuff in life isn't really crucial. With the exception of feeding the baby, virtually nothing I do in a typical day is "life or death." So then, with the help of high-dose SSRI, I start thinking "why bother?" about almost everything. Hence, apathy. Which, I agree, is worse than perfectionism.
So then again, it gets back to trying to find the balance. Which is not something that a platitude like "don't sweat the small stuff" can really help with.
All I know is that sometimes - rarely - I have been better able to find this balance, naturally, easily. Which leads me to think that something biological is going on. Like bipolar illness, but with a slightly different axis.
In retrospect, I think I've felt this way my whole life. Only then, in my late 30s, when I had my first baby, it became more stark and scary. Bipolar Perfectionism II becoming Bipolar Perfectionism I.
Amulsipride, huh? Is that the one that's not available in the US?
Anyway, it's nice to know that there are others out there who've experienced the same thing.
Posted by Questionmark on April 10, 2006, at 0:55:02
In reply to Re: Medications for excessive chronic Perfectionis, posted by Laurie Beth on April 8, 2006, at 13:19:51
> Well, Questionmark and Racer, I'm right there with you. I have moved between excessive perfectionism, apathy/anhedonia, and - rarely - just the right balance. During my last pregnancy I felt great in this respect - productive, efficient, but not so hung up on the details that it made me incapable of action or ruined my pleasure in what I had accomplished. Then, a couple of months after the baby was born (and after a Zoloft increase at birth), I became so apathetic I could barely get out of bed.
>
> Racer writes:
>
> 'But therapy really has helped more than anything else -- mostly because it has me asking myself, 'Why is this so important? Why do I need to be perfect in this?"'
>
> The thing for me, though, is that focusing on perfectionism doesn't necessary do anything to overcome it ... or if it does, it induces a more generalized apathy. For example, I found myself becoming perfectionistic about putting baby outfits together (oxytocin is known to induce obsessiveness, BTW, and I was/am nursing). I knew this was stupid, but all I could really do was tell myself, "this doesn't matter that much." But then I'd start thinking, none of it really matters that much. I mean, why do babies have to wear cute clothes anyway? What does it matter if their clothes are too big, or the pants are too short, or the outfits don't match, or whatever? A LOT of stuff in life isn't really crucial. With the exception of feeding the baby, virtually nothing I do in a typical day is "life or death." So then, with the help of high-dose SSRI, I start thinking "why bother?" about almost everything. Hence, apathy. Which, I agree, is worse than perfectionism.
>
> So then again, it gets back to trying to find the balance. Which is not something that a platitude like "don't sweat the small stuff" can really help with.
>
> All I know is that sometimes - rarely - I have been better able to find this balance, naturally, easily. Which leads me to think that something biological is going on. Like bipolar illness, but with a slightly different axis.
>
> In retrospect, I think I've felt this way my whole life. Only then, in my late 30s, when I had my first baby, it became more stark and scary. Bipolar Perfectionism II becoming Bipolar Perfectionism I.
>
> Amulsipride, huh? Is that the one that's not available in the US?
>
> Anyway, it's nice to know that there are others out there who've experienced the same thing.
Yeah, i know what you mean about how focusing on perfectionism and trying to overcome it by awareness of it can create "a more generalized apathy," as you put it. Not all the time, but often. It's kind of the whole "all-or-nothing" mindset i suppose. Like why do something if it's not going to be done well enough (i.e., as close to perfect as possible)? And it's not that i think that consciously, but that's what it amounts to behaviorally.
And the end result is that i either waste too much time on a task trying to do it perfectly, or i'll procrastinate starting the task until negative consequences arise, or i avoid a task altogether.
i wish there was a way to be adequately aware of all the little excessively perfectionistic subbehaviors, so to speak (or the "trees"), and not be so compulsive with them, but to still complete all the main behaviors (or the "forests") to satisfaction.
Da**it, sorry. i'm rambling again.But yeah i agree, it is nice to know that there are others out there experiencing the same sort of things.
Post Script: i'm posting the name of a book i have about coping with perfectionism in Psycho-Babble Books.
This is the end of the thread.
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