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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by greywolf on March 29, 2006, at 7:24:18
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by fairywings on March 28, 2006, at 23:59:39
I thought that, too, but in a thread last week someone told me that the 4mgs/day I take was a weak dose. It doesn't seem weak to me, and I can't imagine functioning at much more than that, but apparently some people are at much higher doses.
Posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 9:43:56
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
> I've never heard of this before but my neighbor from Florida who is a third grade teacher said she heard or read that SSRI's cause memory loss. And she can't remember where she heard or read this. Has anyone else ever heard of this. I haven't. She is on lexapro 10mg and 3mg of xanax and will take up to 6mg of xanax at night if she cant sleep. She just laughs and says well if I cant remember something I tell my Son(grown and married with a child) that it's the medicine. She thinks it's a joke. Well I don't do any of you? Or have any of you heard of this. this must National SSRI bad side effects week. Love Phillipa
Come on now...you can't believe everything someone says, or what you read, or what you heard, etc, etc. Some people find something bad about EVERYTHING! And you know what, if you look hard enough you can too. There is no scientific proof that ssri's cause memory loss!! But, everything has side-effects of some kind...that's just how it is. Even Vitamins can have side effects...
-Vitamin E can elevate blood pressure in hypertensives.
-Choline can deepen the depressive phase of bi-polar depression.
-Vitamin C can reverse the anticoagulant activity of blood thinner in the drug Coumadin.By the way, this list could go on and on....
Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 10:59:54
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 9:43:56
>There is no scientific proof that ssri's cause >memory loss!! But, everything has side-effects >of some kind...that's just how it is. Even >Vitamins can have side effects...
It has been a documented side effect. Some studies suggest that longer term use of the drugs may lead to more complications. I believe the topic is discussed in the book "Listening to Prozac".
Linkadge
Posted by Jakeman on March 29, 2006, at 11:50:17
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me » Jakeman, posted by scatterbrained on March 28, 2006, at 20:47:12
> I don't believe that it is so much that the ssri's help with memory but that they help with depression(in some people) which in turn helps with memory.
>
> Is ssri brain growth more pronounced than say trycyclic or maoi brain growth, is there a study?I have not taken the time to conduct a proper literature review. There are many studies, some with conflicting results, and very little has been proven.
It could be that memory improvement is a result of remission. I can only say from my experience that the antidepressants which tend to be activating for me (such as Prozac, Wellburtrin, selegeline) have improved cognitive functioning and memory.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by fairywings on March 29, 2006, at 12:10:51
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me, posted by Jakeman on March 29, 2006, at 11:50:17
I suppose it's like any other drug...depending on each person, their make-up, chemistry...each drug will have a diff. effect. Some might have memory loss, some might not. Some people can probably handle 6 mg xanax, whereas I'd be completely knocked out. Some people do well on SSRI's where some people don't. I guess that's why there's conflicting evidence?
fw
Posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 13:14:20
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 10:59:54
> >There is no scientific proof that ssri's cause >memory loss!! But, everything has side-effects >of some kind...that's just how it is. Even >Vitamins can have side effects...
>
> It has been a documented side effect. Some studies suggest that longer term use of the drugs may lead to more complications. I believe the topic is discussed in the book "Listening to Prozac".
>
> Linkadge
>They've also proven that people who suffer from depression and anxiety with or without medication suffer from memory loss. They also know that this illness destroys brain cells, people with chronic dep. with or without meds
suffer from a lowering of their personal I.Q.Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 13:29:59
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » linkadge, posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 13:14:20
>They've also proven that people who suffer from >depression and anxiety with or without >medication suffer from memory loss. They also >know that this illness destroys brain cells, >people with chronic dep. with or without meds
>suffer from a lowering of their personal I.Q.I know that depression can impact the functionality of the hippocampus. I don't know if the statment could be extended to say that depressed individuals suffer from a lowering of IQ, IQ is not thought to reside in the hippocampus. Do you have any references for that conclusion ?
There has also been debate as to the validity of the assertion that antidepressants can prevent or repair this damamge. Some studies show that antidepressants reduce depression induced hippocampal loss and atropy while other studies suggest that no such conclusion can be made.
It is a similar arugment with schizophrenia. Although the antipsychotics can help symptoms of schizophrenia, they do not really correct or halt the underlying progression of the illness, sometimes they acutally make it worse.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 13:36:49
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 13:29:59
I have never noticed any memory loss on SSRIs. I do notice a reduction in motivation though, which can impact the ability to learn. Benzos can clearly affect memory. In fact, injectable benzodiazepines are used specifically to create amnesia during unpleasant medical procedures. A high IV dose of midazolam (Versed, Hypnovel) or diazepam (Diazemuls) can cause total amnesia for ~ 15 minutes after the injection. This is useful if a patient is having an endoscopy, for example.
Ed
Posted by Phillipa on March 29, 2006, at 13:46:46
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 13:36:49
Versed is a benzo? Love PJO
Posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 14:05:04
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » ed_uk, posted by Phillipa on March 29, 2006, at 13:46:46
Hi,
Yes, Versed is midazolam, a benzo. When injected, diazepam is quite similar to Versed. Oddly, Diazemuls (the non-irritant diazepam injection) is not marketed in the US. Valium injection is irritant to the vein so Versed in preferred. In the UK, both Diazemuls and Versed (Hypnovel here) are widely used in hospitals. Lorazepam (Ativan) and clonazepam (Klonopin, Rivotril) are also given by injection.
Ed xxx
Posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 14:09:23
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 14:05:04
Posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 15:39:01
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me :-) (nm) » ed_uk, posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 14:09:23
Hi Scott
What did I do LOL?
I could have done with a shot of Versed at work today. It might have created amnesia to the fact that a certain member of staff was being highly irritating.
Ed
Posted by TylerJ on March 30, 2006, at 8:11:13
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 13:29:59
> >They've also proven that people who suffer from >depression and anxiety with or without >medication suffer from memory loss. They also >know that this illness destroys brain cells, >people with chronic dep. with or without meds
> >suffer from a lowering of their personal I.Q.
>
> I know that depression can impact the functionality of the hippocampus. I don't know if the statment could be extended to say that depressed individuals suffer from a lowering of IQ, IQ is not thought to reside in the hippocampus. Do you have any references for that conclusion ?
>
> There has also been debate as to the validity of the assertion that antidepressants can prevent or repair this damamge. Some studies show that antidepressants reduce depression induced hippocampal loss and atropy while other studies suggest that no such conclusion can be made.
>
> It is a similar arugment with schizophrenia. Although the antipsychotics can help symptoms of schizophrenia, they do not really correct or halt the underlying progression of the illness, sometimes they acutally make it worse.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
Yes, I got my information from The Enquirer Magazine..Just kidding. Seriously, I believe I read it at Crazymeds.org.Tyler
Posted by Cairo on March 30, 2006, at 21:58:27
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
My daughter was on Lexapro and couldn't remember why she'd walk into a room. Also noticed retention of math skills was poor. Raised the dose, memory got worse. Lowered the dose, memory improved. A no-brainer to conclude that Lexapro was at fault. Though I couldn't convince her pdoc of that. Changed docs.
http://www.preskorn.com/columns/0005.html
http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-lane2.pdf
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/132c16.htm
http://www-np.unimaas.nl/PsyPharm/NCDEU/schmitt529.pdf
http://www.mhsource.com/depconsult/dec2004.jhtml?_requestid=511678#Q2
http://www.ascp.com/public/pubs/tcp/1997/oct/ssri.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14965243
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=534840
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7995797
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15538188
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15387402Cairo
Posted by Jakeman on March 30, 2006, at 22:50:33
In reply to Re: Some articles, posted by Cairo on March 30, 2006, at 21:58:27
> My daughter was on Lexapro and couldn't
Thanks for posting the articles. What treatment is she receiving now?
warm regards, Jake
Posted by Cairo on March 31, 2006, at 12:05:31
In reply to Re: Some articles » Cairo, posted by Jakeman on March 30, 2006, at 22:50:33
She is currently on Zoloft and low dose Seroquel for Social Anxiety, dysthymia and a sleep disorder.
The Zoloft is certainly better than the Lexapro was on memory, but as she is also diagnosed with ADHD and learning and language disabilities, I find it hard to tease out if the Zoloft has some effect on memory. The social anxiety was so bad, that we felt we had no choice but to use meds.
No one wants to try BZD with her, as she is a teenager. I use Klonopin for panic attacks, but find it has a depressogenic effect at doses above 0.5mg and causes bone crushing fatigue at the higher doses. She also has a chronic fatigue type profile. Zoloft doesn't cause fatigue as much as the Lexapro did in her, also.
I would be interested in trying Lyrica with her. I'm on it for Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue, but had to lower the daytime dose to 75mg from 150mg due to it causing too much fatigue and unsteadiness. I'm still getting fatigue in the afternoons, but as it's helping with pain, I'll keep it for now. Cognitively, Lyrica is way better than Neurontin was, though I do notice a little spaciness.
Cairo
> Thanks for posting the articles. What treatment is she receiving now?
>
> warm regards, Jake
Posted by fairywings on March 31, 2006, at 13:17:17
In reply to Re: Some articles » Jakeman, posted by Cairo on March 31, 2006, at 12:05:31
> She is currently on Zoloft and low dose Seroquel for Social Anxiety, dysthymia and a sleep disorder.
Is her psychiatrist a specialist in ADHD? I'm sure you probably already know all of this, and I hope I'm not being too intrusive, but has she been tried on a stimulant? My kids have ADHD and auditory/visual processing disorders too.
>
> The Zoloft is certainly better than the Lexapro was on memory, but as she is also diagnosed with ADHD and learning and language disabilities, She also has a chronic fatigue type profile. Zoloft doesn't cause fatigue as much as the Lexapro did in her
High school is really tough when you have to fight all the issues of an illness too. How old is she? Doesn't seroquel cause weight gain? and isn't it a drug known for making people really tired? Does she get tired during the school day, or have trouble with activities bec. of the meds?
> I would be interested in trying Lyrica with her.Does she have pain too? Poor kid, that would be really hard.
fw
Posted by Laurie Beth on March 31, 2006, at 19:02:08
In reply to Re: Some articles » Cairo, posted by fairywings on March 31, 2006, at 13:17:17
caused some memory deficits for me.
Posted by Laurie Beth on April 1, 2006, at 14:11:22
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me » Jakeman, posted by fairywings on March 29, 2006, at 12:10:51
It says that the following are some of the side effects of serotonin boosting, due to effects on dopamine levels, are:
"Weight gain
Decreased ability to experience pleasure
Apathy and decreased motivation
Cognitive slowing"
[as well as the well-known GI side upset, sleep disturbance and sexual dysfunction]I can't give you an internet site for this; it was just a handout GSK gives doctors.
Posted by TylerJ on April 1, 2006, at 14:34:01
In reply to Glossy handout from GlaxoSmithKline says yes, posted by Laurie Beth on April 1, 2006, at 14:11:22
> It says that the following are some of the side effects of serotonin boosting, due to effects on dopamine levels, are:
>
> "Weight gain
> Decreased ability to experience pleasure
> Apathy and decreased motivation
> Cognitive slowing"
> [as well as the well-known GI side upset, sleep disturbance and sexual dysfunction]
>
> I can't give you an internet site for this; it was just a handout GSK gives doctors.
And yet they call them ANTI-depressents. HMMMM...Tyler
Posted by Cairo on April 2, 2006, at 16:05:22
In reply to Re: Some articles » Cairo, posted by fairywings on March 31, 2006, at 13:17:17
> Is her psychiatrist a specialist in ADHD? I'm sure you probably already know all of this, and I hope I'm not being too intrusive, but has she been tried on a stimulant? My kids have ADHD and auditory/visual processing disorders too.
We consulted a specialist at U of Pa who suggested the Seroquel augmentation. All the stimulants exacerbated anxiety and Strattera actually induced the only episode of major depression that she's ever had. I think anything that is too noradrenergic is not good for her, as the stims are.
> High school is really tough when you have to fight all the issues of an illness too. How old is she? Doesn't seroquel cause weight gain? and isn't it a drug known for making people really tired? Does she get tired during the school day, or have trouble with activities bec. of the meds?She just turned 17. Low dose Seroquel really doesn't seem to add to her fatigue. And it has been really weight neutral for her. She does have fatigue in the afternoon, but I honestly think it's due to a hypoactive HPA axis, just like me. I just wonder if using stimulants all those years contributed to this.
> Does she have pain too? Poor kid, that would be really hard.She has myofascial pain and needs to be careful of overusing her muscles, but she does OK.
We have her privately tutored by an LD teacher along with another LD teen. This has been a godsend in terms of her academics. She has quite significant learning disabilities with her ADHD as well as an auditory processing disorder, but she's doing great. Would not make it in a regular classroom, but she's getting what she needs.
Have you ever heard of Fast ForWord (FFW) and Interactive Metronome (IM) for processing disorders? My daughter did FFW at age 9 just before doing intensive Lindamood-Bell LiPS training for phonemic awareness for reading and I really felt it was a critical piece of her reading success. She continues to have writing and spelling issues, but we've been working on that with Orton-Gillingham and she's making progress.
If you don't already know about it, check out www.ldonline.org/ Go to the "LD in depth" on the main page upper bar, and click on whatever interests you for good info on LD issues, including processing and language. The forums are good there, too.
Thanks for your concern.
Cairo
Posted by Cairo on April 2, 2006, at 16:07:36
In reply to I'm about 90% sure that Zoloft, posted by Laurie Beth on March 31, 2006, at 19:02:08
It's funny how meds affect people differently. I try to hone in on posters on this forum who react to meds the same way I do and have the same symptomatic profile, though everything posted is interesting.
Cairo
> caused some memory deficits for me.
Posted by fairywings on April 2, 2006, at 18:22:44
In reply to Re: Some articles » fairywings, posted by Cairo on April 2, 2006, at 16:05:22
Hi Cairo,
> We consulted a specialist at U of Pa who suggested the Seroquel augmentation.
*Good you found someone you trust, I think that's the biggest thing. Sorry the stimulants were a bust....I know about the Strattera, I had depression with it too. bleh.
>
> it has been really weight neutral for her. She does have fatigue in the afternoon, but I honestly think it's due to a hypoactive HPA axis, just like me. I just wonder if using stimulants all those years contributed to this.*Glad it's weight neutral for her, it's hard enough to be in high school w/o worrying about weight gain. I was on tricyclics in hs and gained. I had anorexia and bullimia at the time, and really suffered on them, not to mention they didn't help me. I don't know anything about the hypoactive HPA axis, but I've seen your posts on it b4. Will have to go back and read them.
>
> She has myofascial pain and needs to be careful of overusing her muscles, but she does OK.*I hear you on this....I have this too in my hip area - and I run, so it makes for some painful days. Have you tried trigger point massage? It's been more helpful than anything I've tried.
http://www.ultimatewatermassage.com/massage-types-trigger.htm
But don't bother with any of the merchandise - a good hard ball of the right size works wonders(over your clothes so you can rub w/o sticking) . Or around the muscles in the spine use a much softer ball - tennis or something.
>
> We have her privately tutored by an LD teacher along with another LD teen. This has been a godsend in terms of her academics. She has quite significant learning disabilities with her ADHD as well as an auditory processing disorder, but she's doing great. Would not make it in a regular classroom, but she's getting what she needs.*That's so awesome that you found such a great tutor for your daughter. We've had wonderful teachers and our OT was really good. It takes some trial and error, doesn't it? Our older children all have CAPD and ADHD. I'm not sure if it made a difference, or if it was just milder for the older ones, but I homeschooled them until middle school, and they never needed any intervention. And I'm sure it wasn't school per se, but the distractions and hectic environment of an open classroom environment didn't help our oldest son. He went to school right from K and needed private OT as well as various therapies for the CAPD. Once we decided to go ahead and try the medication route he's done great - no additional help needed. It's been such a relief - and he's happy in school. Thank goodness!
>
> Have you ever heard of Fast ForWord (FFW) and Interactive Metronome (IM) for processing disorders?*I have heard of IM, but none of our kids had LD's as far as subject matter goes - just major attentional problems. I think our older son might have struggled a lot more if we hadn't been alerted to the CAPD and ADHD when he was still really young though. I was in denial for 4 years, but it's worked out.
>
> If you don't already know about it, check out www.ldonline.org/ Go to the "LD in depth" on the main page upper bar, and click on whatever interests you for good info on LD issues, including processing and language. The forums are good there, too.Thanks Cairo, I'll check it out! Thanks for all the info! Good luck to you and your daughter.
fw
Posted by Cairo on April 3, 2006, at 13:55:28
In reply to Re: Some articles *trigger* » Cairo, posted by fairywings on April 2, 2006, at 18:22:44
> *I hear you on this....I have this too in my hip area - and I run, so it makes for some painful days. Have you tried trigger point massage? It's been more helpful than anything I've tried.
>I've done trigger point injections, Botox injections, myofascial release massage, and have every product under the sun. They work, but just don't last. I see a physical therapist once a week (I pay out of pocket) who does a combination of myofascial release, massage, cranial sacral stuff, Maitland and Paris techniques and whatever. It works, I feel great, but by the next day it's back. BUT, if I miss a week or two, I get really bad and out of whack. What he does is by far much gentler than the trigger point injections and trigger point release which can HURT! But I wish at times that someone here did trigger point injections the correct way (when accurately place, you get the twitch response) because there are deep muscles that sometimes the PT can't get to, but the injections would (you should see the length of those needles...). No MD here does effective trigger point injections. I've tried some, but they were ineffectual. Flew to Bethesda, Maryland a couple of times to see someone who did injections, but how much money can you spend traveling??? He was good, though, but it also didn't last.
I use tennis balls, the thera-cane and other things to help myself, but it's tough to do some trigger points myself and takes too darn long. I'd spend all day on every muscle. Can't live like that.
Glad to hear your kids don't have major LD issues. Have you considered neurofeedback for the ADHD? Some get good results, but it was a bust for both me and my daughter. I think we have too many things going on. I'm convinced meds are the way to go. We're on the right track now with our med combos, but it still needs tweaking.
Good luck to you!
Cairo
Posted by fairywings on April 3, 2006, at 14:29:30
In reply to Re: Some articles *trigger* » fairywings, posted by Cairo on April 3, 2006, at 13:55:28
Hi Cariro,
I agree, there's only so much you can do in a day to try to relieve the pain - it takes forever when your whole body aches doesn't it? I'm sorry you haven't found anything that lasts -you've exhausted so many possibilities. Have you tried accupuncture. I've never tried it, so I don't know anything about how helpful it is.
In 3 years we exhausted everything we knew of before deciding to go the med route with our kids for ADHD. Once we got them on meds I could have kicked myself for waiting so long, but I was in heavy denial with our son. Once we saw how beautifully he did, and how good he felt about school, it was a no brainer.
Take care,
fw
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