![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tomatheus on January 29, 2006, at 16:03:02
In reply to Um, I think you're taking it too far... » Tomatheus, posted by Racer on January 29, 2006, at 14:31:09
Racer,
I completely agree with what you're saying. And I do think that think you are correct in suggesting that I was going too far in saying that *all* studies showing evidence for genetically mediated biochemical abnormalities would need to be discredited to make a convincing argument against what is commonly referred to as the "chemical imbalance" theory. After all, if someone were to discredit all but one of the studies showing some evidence for the "chemical imbalance" theory, there would still be one study showing evidence for the theory, but it would obviously provide for a very weak argument in favor of there being a "chemical imbalance" when taken in the context of the psychiatric literature as a whole.
So, yes, I agree with the points that you made, and I certainly think that it makes more sense to explain things the way you've explained them instead of trying to get a bit overly complex when it's not really necessary.
Thanks,
Tomatheus
Posted by Racer on January 29, 2006, at 16:58:33
In reply to Re: Um, I think you're taking it too far... » Racer, posted by catmint on January 29, 2006, at 14:45:38
> I am struggling with the decision to get back on Lamictal; due to it's efficacy, I should, but the irritability was too constant. Lamictal worked on many levels, but some people noticed I was racy, and innatentive.
>
>
That doesn't sound as though Lamictal was the optimal drug for you, then, at least as monotherapy. Can you talk to your doctor about trying to find either another mood stabilizing agent or augmenting the Lamictal with something that would help mitigate those symptoms?There's finally some notice in the medical community that what they're considering to be great responses to medications still might not improve the quality of life for patients. ("Really? Why didn't those whiny patients ever mention that their quality of life still left much to be desired?" Some days I think doctors can be a bit dim, you know?) Anyway, I mention this because maybe there'll be a bit more response if you ask about it now, than you would have gotten a few years ago. Because from what you have written here, it doesn't surprise me that you're hesitant to start that drug again.
Have you tried other meds in the past that helped? Or that didn't help? Maybe someone here can offer some other suggestions if you let us know what you've tried so far.
Good luck.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2006, at 0:37:29
In reply to Redirect: the ultimate answer, posted by Dr. Bob on January 29, 2006, at 10:41:08
> I'd like to ask that follow-ups regarding the ultimate answer be redirected to Psycho-Babble Social.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060124/msgs/604381.html
And for follow-ups regarding administrative issues:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060111/msgs/604369.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 14:16:43
In reply to Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by catmint on January 28, 2006, at 18:05:38
Dear Catmint,
I am so so so sorry for all you are going through.I am a mother -- not a single mother -- and I can hardly deal with motherhood. I can't imagine how hard it must be going it alone.
I was wondering if you have tried a straight anti-depressant, like Prozac? I have been diagnosed as BPII (although no one is really sure if it's BPII or just depression + anxiety). I tried several mood stabilizers, and they all made me WORSE. I was on Lamictal for about 8 months, and it made me very agitated and anxious.
The thing that has worked best for me so far is a "band-aid approach"
- Lexapro for depression
- Dexedrine for fatigue, inattention, and an augment to the Lexapro
- and Klonapin for anxiety (which I usually take at night to sleep).The "miracle drug" for me is alcohol (sad to say.) I wish there was some med that could "mimic" it. I don't drink now, but I surely understand why you are turning to alcohol.
I am in agreement with everyone here about finding someone to talk to, and finding a doctor soon to give you a script for meds to help your depression. For me, alcohol doesn't feel the "same" when I am on antidepressants (just makes me tired and woozy) -- so getting on a med soon could help you get off the alcohol (and perhaps the other drugs as well?)
Please hang in there. I am really feeling for you. I can't imagine your pain, with your brother just dying on top of everything else.
Keep us posted ...
cindy
> I have been diagnosed for 7 years, been on all pych meds for bipolar since. 2 months ago stopped Lamictal monotherapy.
>
> I can't deal with my life. I felt that the Lamictal was only helping somewhat, and stooped for fear of long term effects.
>
> I'm 39, female, and living as a single parent.
>
> Now, I have a mild recreational drug problem, as well as alcohol every day. Ciggarettes, a tumultuous home-life, jobless, facing eviction,scrounging for change, no foodstamps till Feb. 3
>
> Help! Any posts in the next two to four hours are needed!! I need to get some advice.
>
>
Posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 14:28:29
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 5:03:22
A couple notes on this ...
Sure, there is a lot more to mental illness than "just" brain chemistry. However, I have heard an analogy that makes sense to me:
In the baseball game of life (for those of us with mental illness), therapy and other support help us run the bases. However, we can't even get up to bat without medication.
You were given benzos for stress. But if a vacation worked for you and you no longer needed benzos, than your stress was obviously not caused by a true "chemical imbalance."
Those of us who do have a true chemical imbalance -- for whatever reason -- would still be depressed, anxious, etc. if we were on a tropical island with no obligations or worries in the world.
cindy
> And defend it I shall dear player. It is taken out of context yet again, as was a few of my other posts of late.
>
> Yes, when chemicals act in different ways they produce different actions. Different situations cause your body to respond in different ways, cause the neurochemistry to change, etc. When you are in a bad environment, your mind becomes ill of it, but not just your mind... your brain and its chemicals as well.
>
> The whole thing is ridiculous about the imbalance, and this is where I will have to be more specific. It is not that a chemical imbalance doesn't happen, it is that drugs are not the answer, at least no the ultimate answer. The real problem is, you are in a trap, you are given drugs to cope in the trap, the suffocating box. The trap is the environment that you are in, what the environment is doing to you, it is established deeply in the survivalist nature of humans and of course in that of other living species.
>
> Most people don't have a million dollars so they can escape the places that are bothering them. You may argue that the trap is in the mind sometimes as well caused by past traumas such as incest. However, just leaving a certain place that you have been at for a very long time... can do profound things on you regardless of your past experiences. I know this from personal experience s myself, and not just me, but from various people that suffered from rape, incest, and other such things in there past.
>
> So, to sum it up, the whole chemical imbalance things being pushed on everyone is like an empty truth. Yes, it is indeed fact, but how useful is it? You aren't forever in the chains of your neurochemistry, there are other ways to change it besides powerful and often times dangerous drugs.
>
> You may then decide to go on these drugs that they toy around you, these SSRIs.. the neuroleptics. But you ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
>
> They gave me benzos for stress because of chemical imbalances. I went on a long vacation, I didn't need benzos anymore.
>
> If you can escape, do it. Those drugs knock you out for a reason.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2006, at 17:04:31
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » fenix, posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 14:28:29
Posted by catmint on January 30, 2006, at 19:51:56
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » catmint, posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 14:16:43
Cindy,
THank you for your post.
Here's what I've been on in the past 7 years:Zoloft
Wellbutrin, Prozac, Neurontin
Zyprexa, Prozac
Lithium
Trileptal, Prozac
Depakote
Lamictal, Ativan
Depakote, Lamictal
LamictalI am beginning to think I am treatment resistant.
anyway, I'm just not sure where to go from here. I just wish I could stop killling myself with cigarrettes, and get myself off weed and alcohol.
Posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 19:58:01
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » cindy lou, posted by catmint on January 30, 2006, at 19:51:56
Oh man, I didn't realize you had been through the ringer with all of those meds. You sound similar to me -- I think I have tried all of those and more, in many different "cocktails."
Hang in there, please know that I am feeling for you, and if it's any help, that you are not alone in this.
Take care,
cindy.> Cindy,
> THank you for your post.
> Here's what I've been on in the past 7 years:
>
> Zoloft
> Wellbutrin, Prozac, Neurontin
> Zyprexa, Prozac
> Lithium
> Trileptal, Prozac
> Depakote
> Lamictal, Ativan
> Depakote, Lamictal
> Lamictal
>
> I am beginning to think I am treatment resistant.
>
> anyway, I'm just not sure where to go from here. I just wish I could stop killling myself with cigarrettes, and get myself off weed and alcohol.
Posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 20:02:42
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » catmint, posted by cindy lou on January 30, 2006, at 19:58:01
P.S. Don't give up. I know it's easier said than done, especially now, but there is something out there that can help. I have wanted to give up the med thing many times, but something keeps me trying -- right now, it's my kids -- I have to keep trying for them.
Posted by Racer on January 31, 2006, at 12:41:48
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » cindy lou, posted by catmint on January 30, 2006, at 19:51:56
> Zoloft
> Wellbutrin, Prozac, Neurontin
> Zyprexa, Prozac
> Lithium
> Trileptal, Prozac
> Depakote
> Lamictal, Ativan
> Depakote, Lamictal
> LamictalBefore you can think you're treatment resistant, you've got a whole slew of options to try. So far, you've only tried two SSRIs, a benzo, three anticonvulsants -- two at once, in one case -- and Lithium. There are a bunch of other options for you, many of which might work better for you.
Can you tell us a bit about the results you got with each one of those? Doesn't have to be elaborate, just the basics of whether it helped AT ALL, and what made it a bust otherwise. Also, can you tell us a bit about your symptoms?
If depression is the biggest problem for you, there are several classes of drugs that you haven't tried: MAOIs, TCAs, SNRIs, and some newer, novel drugs like Remeron. And then you can add a mood stabilizer, even Lamictal, since that seemed to ALMOST work for you.
Best of luck to you, and I hope something here can help you find relief.
Posted by TexasChic on January 31, 2006, at 19:31:47
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 5:03:22
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2006, at 23:14:11
In reply to Is this Tom Cruise? It is isn't it. (nm) » fenix, posted by TexasChic on January 31, 2006, at 19:31:47
> Is this Tom Cruise? It is isn't it.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
And please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 11:49:03
In reply to Is this Tom Cruise? It is isn't it. (nm) » fenix, posted by TexasChic on January 31, 2006, at 19:31:47
Heh, that was actually a funny response.
I have an open mind enough concerning these certain psychiatric drugs that I have discussed, however, my life was destroyed by them... and it kinda changed my perspective on things, you know what I mean?
I believe that often times these psychiatric drugs are prescribed more so then they should be, and also carelessly. Many doctors don't give simple warnings about how you shouldn't stop taking the drugs suddenly, I know a lot of you know this from personal experiences. They also don't tend to very often warn you of TD or diabetes from these drugs, etc.
They always say "well, you gotta weigh the benefits and the risks". However, they (many doctors) never fully let you know exactly what you are getting into.
Those psyche medicines may be working for you and others, that is great, but be careful. I would not wish upon anybody the stuff that has happened to me as a result of these drugs. I was better off without ever going on them to begin with.
Posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 12:11:40
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » fenix, posted by catmint on January 29, 2006, at 14:28:28
> > You said you are off of meds. You aren't on any at all? Sometimes if you stop taking them suddenly you can get something known as akathesia which is a feeling of painful agitation and restlessness. If you want to get off of these medicines because of fear of long term effects (quite a prudent thing to do), you should get off of them slowly.
> >
> > They say it is a chemical balance thing. But really, that is bull, I bet if you got a million dollars right now, you wouldn't be so depressed anymore would ya? Even though past memories would still be there, you at least wouldn't be trapped.
>
> Thank you so much. I did get off the Lamictal slowly, I just don't know what to do from here. This morning my brother died. He was 30. He had muscular dystrophy.I feel sad about that... I hope you are handling things alright through the pain. Try to cope and hang on and you will get through, I have been in certain similar situations before.
It is said that it is the darkest right before dawn, if you know what I mean :)
Posted by cindy lou on February 1, 2006, at 13:54:39
In reply to Re: Is this Tom Cruise? It is isn't it., posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 11:49:03
Hi Fenix,
My brain isn't working well today -- could you tell me what TD stands for? I am interested ...I do often wonder how these meds are affecting me (even though I don't think I have many other options -- I have tried so many other "natural" routes).
Thanks, cindy.
-- They also don't tend to very often warn you of TD or diabetes from these drugs, etc.
Posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 15:01:44
In reply to Re: Is this Tom Cruise? It is isn't it. » fenix, posted by cindy lou on February 1, 2006, at 13:54:39
> Hi Fenix,
> My brain isn't working well today -- could you tell me what TD stands for? I am interested ...
>
> I do often wonder how these meds are affecting me (even though I don't think I have many other options -- I have tried so many other "natural" routes).
>
> Thanks, cindy.
>
> -- They also don't tend to very often warn you of TD or diabetes from these drugs, etc.
>Hi Cindy, it stands for tardive dyskinesia. Yes I know about the "natural" routes when it concerns such things as valerian, kava (which actually can be a bit effective if you get the right kind from Hawaii). Those tend to be very mild, still.
My philosophies are about survival and environment and how they affect the psychological disposition of people. I have had much experience with many people that come from traumatic backgrounds and poisonous environments.
We are survivalist beings and our environment is where we exist. Everyone has heard of the fight and/or flight response, it is a necessity, however, even though it has now been transmogrified through our current state of modern civilization.
I do not believe that one just becomes depressed and/or anxious one day for no reason due to chemicals all of a sudden becoming "imbalanced", however, I believe that it is from our own very survivalist nature and environment that affects the biological systems and neurochemistry.
Some people can't leave a bad place for the moment for whatever circumstances, but drugs just make you cope in a bad place. They don't actually take you out of that bad place.
Posted by catmint on February 1, 2006, at 19:45:44
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 12:11:40
Fenix, thank u for your post.
I do have painful agitation and restessness, hence the pot and alcohol intake. I have only had minimal response to medications.
the days are getting better since my brother died. I even went two days w/o alcohol.
I'm curious about your experiences with meds. Please if u have time, can you tell us about it.
Feeling very stuck in my situation.
Posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 20:02:00
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » fenix, posted by catmint on February 1, 2006, at 19:45:44
> Fenix, thank u for your post.
>
> I do have painful agitation and restessness, hence the pot and alcohol intake. I have only had minimal response to medications.
>
> the days are getting better since my brother died. I even went two days w/o alcohol.
>
> I'm curious about your experiences with meds. Please if u have time, can you tell us about it.
>
> Feeling very stuck in my situation.
>
Yes, I would be glad to but I am tired and ready to go to sleep. I'll let you know more about my history with these medicines later. But basically, I was on a few drugs for a couple of years like geodon, effexor, seroquel, zyprexa, etc. and I ended up getting Tardive Akathisia. I am in my early 20s, so this doesn't make things any easier.I haven't been on any psychiatric medicines for 2 years now because of TA. I am now seeking treatment for Tardive Akathisia. We are trying benzos at the moment because propranolol didn't work.
I have been suffering for a long time from TA (about two years), I wish I never took any of those drugs they gave me. It has really messed up a lot of things. Oh well, good night.
You should look up TA if you want, but I want to forewarn you that it is a very terrible thing, after you read some stuff about it you may understand.
Posted by TexasChic on February 1, 2006, at 20:04:55
In reply to Re: please be civil » TexasChic, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2006, at 23:14:11
Posted by TexasChic on February 1, 2006, at 20:37:49
In reply to Re: Is this Tom Cruise? It is isn't it., posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 11:49:03
> Heh, that was actually a funny response.
I'm glad you found it humerous and not insulting. I was trying to be funny.
> I believe that often times these psychiatric drugs are prescribed more so then they should be, and also carelessly. Many doctors don't give simple warnings about how you shouldn't stop taking the drugs suddenly, I know a lot of you know this from personal experiences. They also don't tend to very often warn you of TD or diabetes from these drugs, etc.
These are good points.The medical community definitely has its problems, no question there.
> Those psyche medicines may be working for you and others, that is great, but be careful. I would not wish upon anybody the stuff that has happened to me as a result of these drugs. I was better off without ever going on them to begin with.
In my experience Prozac has been a lifesaver, literally. I feel like I am the person I was meant to be (if it weren't for the depression).
Obviously these meds aren't well understood. Doctors admit they don't exactly know how they work. My experience was basically 'try this and see what happens'.
You're right about weighing the risks and benefits. For me the options were try the meds or death. I know I'm lucky that I've had such success. But there's obviously something to it all (SSRI's). I think they just don't know all there is to know about it yet, and why they help some people and harm others.
BTW, although the meds did help me get started, I wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for therapy and hard work. I think the meds just helped me be capable of doing those things.
-T
Posted by catmint on February 2, 2006, at 21:05:07
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 20:02:00
> > Fenix, thank u for your post.
> >
> > I do have painful agitation and restessness, hence the pot and alcohol intake. I have only had minimal response to medications.
> >
> > the days are getting better since my brother died. I even went two days w/o alcohol.
> >
> > I'm curious about your experiences with meds. Please if u have time, can you tell us about it.
> >
> > Feeling very stuck in my situation.
> >
>
>
> Yes, I would be glad to but I am tired and ready to go to sleep. I'll let you know more about my history with these medicines later. But basically, I was on a few drugs for a couple of years like geodon, effexor, seroquel, zyprexa, etc. and I ended up getting Tardive Akathisia. I am in my early 20s, so this doesn't make things any easier.
>
> I haven't been on any psychiatric medicines for 2 years now because of TA. I am now seeking treatment for Tardive Akathisia. We are trying benzos at the moment because propranolol didn't work.
>
> I have been suffering for a long time from TA (about two years), I wish I never took any of those drugs they gave me. It has really messed up a lot of things. Oh well, good night.
>
> You should look up TA if you want, but I want to forewarn you that it is a very terrible thing, after you read some stuff about it you may understand.Hey Fenix. , I'm so sorry to hear that u have that. I found this link so others might understand. Jeez, I can't f#$*&ing believe it.
I think I might have it to a lesser degree. I'ts messed up.
Posted by fenix on February 3, 2006, at 4:07:16
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by catmint on February 2, 2006, at 21:05:07
Yes, and the description on the website is very real, which scared me even more when I focus on the realization that this is what I have, and may have for the rest of my life. I have every right to consider suicide, but I don't because there are certain things that I love too much in this world, and besides I got a will of steel.
But this is what I am talking about, for ever few dozen or whatever people that get helped by these drugs, there are others that get destroyed by them. And even the people that are getting help from the drugs now, may get hurt in the long run anyway.
I just wanted to warn people, to see if they really think they really need these drugs or not.
I once met a very wise and humble neuro-psychologist before, humble I say because of his achievments at Yale and Oxford yet he always used to say to me (to paraphrase because I can't remember, it was long ago) "You are your own best doctor, you are the professional here".
And what he really meant was, I am the one suffering from the symptoms and am the one aware with the way my body feels, and I am the one that decides what I should or should not do about it. When a doctor suggests a certain medicine, I don't have to take it, or I could take it. And when the certain doctor doesn't tell you of the ill effects of the drugs concerned, it is really really bad and irresponsible.
Lives get hurt everyday because they didn't know that you aren't just supposed to stop taking these drugs suddenly, for you will get horrible symptoms as a result.
All of this is unacceptable; I have seen in my past doctors of a cowardly resolve.
Posted by catmint on February 3, 2006, at 16:39:53
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by fenix on February 3, 2006, at 4:07:16
I am very grateful for this discussion.
Thank you for sharing your experience and your insight.
This is a med board and in no way is this unrelated.
Posted by TexasChic on February 4, 2006, at 20:12:45
In reply to Re: Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it » fenix, posted by catmint on February 3, 2006, at 16:39:53
Posted by TJO on February 5, 2006, at 6:35:54
In reply to Help!! Bipolar, off meds, losing it, posted by catmint on January 28, 2006, at 18:05:38
> I have been diagnosed for 7 years, been on all pych meds for bipolar since. 2 months ago stopped Lamictal monotherapy.
>
> I can't deal with my life. I felt that the Lamictal was only helping somewhat, and stooped for fear of long term effects.
>
Maybe another mood stabilizer would help? I'm bipolar and take Neurontin, 1200 mg.(as well as other meds) It works great.> I'm 39, female, and living as a single parent.
That sounds tough, I'm 38, and female.
>
> Now, I have a mild recreational drug problem, as well as alcohol every day. Ciggarettes, a tumultuous home-life, jobless, facing eviction,scrounging for change, no foodstamps till Feb. 3Are there any hospital day programs near you?? I go to one and they have helped me solve many of my own problems.
>
> Help! Any posts in the next two to four hours are needed!! I need to get some advice.
>Well I didnt see this till Feb 5th, but my best advice is first of all, take your psych meds! Your illness can return if you don't take them, and sometimes if you try to go back on the same meds, they don't work. Sounds like you are self medicating your illness with the drugs and alcohol for now. The cigs-maybe your pdoc will let you take Wellbutrin. It is also used as an anti smoking med as well as for depression. Also try to find a good pdoc. Maybe a social worker or counselor at a local psych program could help you with your housing and home life issues, and help you find access to some more $. Are you disabled by your illness and if so have you filed for SSD or SSI?
>Hang in there,
Tammy
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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