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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 16:48:22
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? » James K, posted by Glydin on January 6, 2006, at 8:55:32
I was dreading coming home and checking the board because I knew I had jumped to a conclusion. I'm posting this here rather than social or psychology just to make sure you notice it. Part of my behavior involves being overly sensitive. Your understanding about my misunderstanding allows me to learn a lesson without major consequences. So thank you.
James K
Posted by Glydin on January 6, 2006, at 16:54:17
In reply to Thanks and sorry » Glydin, posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 16:48:22
You are so very welcome. No problem at all. The timing of my post right after yours did not turn out well and I can understand your confusion. It was never my intention to cause you anger, distress or any untoward feelings.
I'm very glad you accepted my apology.
Best to you,
Glydin
Posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 17:45:51
In reply to Oh, James K, posted by Glydin on January 6, 2006, at 16:54:17
I feel it's true. Benzos have been around a long time and there are really no long term consequences of taking them. I myself have been on one for over thirty years. And I don't consider it an addiction just necessary as my whole family has severe anxiety problems. Genetic. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Declan on January 6, 2006, at 18:37:01
In reply to Re: Oh, James K, posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 17:45:51
Hi Everyone
I think this addiction thingo is an anxiety that is not intrinsically relevant. I've always preferred to say that I was addicted to, say, benzos or opiates, even if my dose was stable and moderate. I liked the term because it reflected the enchainment to the drug.
I try not to let the mass anxieties about this issue affect me. I perfectly understand that people may not wish to be labelled as addicts, some of whom behave badly, many of whom are treated badly, who have their situation sensationalised etc.
Isn't the argument about the words a semantic avoidance of blame? Certainly, as far as I (or anyone here, I think) am concerned, blame doesn't enter into it.
Declan
Posted by valene on January 6, 2006, at 21:03:14
In reply to Re: Oh, James K, posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 17:45:51
I am pointing out that benzos can be worse than "heroin" to withdraw from: this has been said over and over if you do an internet search or talk to someone who has been through horrific withdrawal.
Are you calling me a liar? I went through one year of hellish withdrawal symptoms. Just go to benzo.org.uk and read Professor C. Heather Ashton's description of benzo w/d symptoms and tell me this is not a physical dependence. I don't appreciate your inferring that I am lying about benzo withdrawal. I have read thousands of articles and posts about benzo withdrawal and it is REAL.
Some very lucky people apparently get away with no w/d symptoms or very slight w/d but the percentage is quite low.
How can you say it is not addictive also when if you C/T it you run a big risk of grand mal seizures????
> I feel it's true. Benzos have been around a long time and there are really no long term consequences of taking them. I myself have been on one for over thirty years. And I don't consider it an addiction just necessary as my whole family has severe anxiety problems. Genetic. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 21:22:17
In reply to Re: Oh, James K-Phillipa, posted by valene on January 6, 2006, at 21:03:14
My post was not directed at you. I'm sorry you've had such a hard time. But not everyone experiences the same thing. As long as a doctor monitors your doseage and response. Some people suffer from anxiety disorders that only a benzo will work for. Unfortunately antidepressants don't work for me. But maybe it's not unfortunate as I've been able to gradually wean off benzos many times over the course of the years I've been on them. As a matter of fact I'm now on the lowest amt that I have been over the past few years. There are been times that I have been totally benzo free. I'm sorry you feel so horrible. Good luck to you. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 21:53:39
In reply to Re: Oh, James K-Phillipa, posted by valene on January 6, 2006, at 21:03:14
I've suffered from chronic fatigue syndrome for years. The article on this page is the main reason I take clonazepam.
http://www.fibromyalgiasupport.com/library/print.cfm?ID=3154&t=CFIDS_FM
I'm not putting this here to discount valene's or anyone elses experience, or to cause controversy. Not everyone has CFS, but I do and I trust this doctor's work.
I would welcome any of you science or alternative medicine experts on this forum to say if you think this guy is a quack or his methodology is suspect. My mind and my health are too important to automatically discount relevant information.
I'm going to go take a look at the benzo site referenced in the above post and see what that's about. I know that the singer Stevie Nicks thinks klonopin nearly destroyed her.
thanks. (I hope the one who started this thread isn't completely confused now)
James K
Posted by yxibow on January 7, 2006, at 0:08:49
In reply to Re: Oh, James K-Phillipa, posted by valene on January 6, 2006, at 21:03:14
> I am pointing out that benzos can be worse than "heroin" to withdraw from: this has been said over and over if you do an internet search or talk to someone who has been through horrific withdrawal.
>
> Are you calling me a liar? I went through one year of hellish withdrawal symptoms. Just go to benzo.org.uk and read Professor C. Heather Ashton's description of benzo w/d symptoms and tell me this is not a physical dependence. I don't appreciate your inferring that I am lying about benzo withdrawal. I have read thousands of articles and posts about benzo withdrawal and it is REAL.Benzodiazepine withdrawal is real, I wont deny that However. The website is a controversial one and I will again get lambasted I am quite sure about this site because there are people here who believe in it, and there are people who are squarely against it. One is free to choose, so I hope I clearly am placing that disclaimer when I say the following things, and note, I am also speaking of a person who has withdrawn from benzodiazepines I would say at least two to three times, mostly safely. Once cold turkey and while I still suffer from some strange but fairly benign spasms from it now and then, what can I do?
Professor Ashton has an agenda to remove people from benzodiazepines, not to mention that there is a blatant Christian symbol placed squarely in the center of the website. By this I am not attacking any religion, but I do not believe it has any place in a website that is to neutrally disseminate important medical information. I speak not for any drug company, and I believe in things like HON and general good practices of medical web ethics.
Additionally medical "experts" sited on the web site include Peter Breggin, MD, who you can believe or not, but is definately a "quack" as identified by Quackwatch, which is generally on the level about medical ethics [http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/breggin.html].
> Some very lucky people apparently get away with no w/d symptoms or very slight w/d but the percentage is quite low.Every medication out there has a potential for medical complications from withdrawal, especially abrupt, from long term use. No dispute here. Antidepressants, antipsychotics, beta blockers, the list goes on.
> How can you say it is not addictive also when if you C/T it you run a big risk of grand mal seizures????There are a lot of medications out there that can risk up to and including grand mal seizures when you "Cold Turkey" them, that don't just include benzodiazepines. All anticonvulsants carry this risk. This includes Tegretol, Depakote, Neurontin, Keppra, Lamictal, Trileptal, Topamax, and practically every medication invented for epilepsy that are used off label for psychiatric purposes.
No medication will be without side effects as no tool in one's garage or garden will be without danger to its user. Its good to read up on information. But that has to be solid, scientifically based information, with double blind trials, and the lack of scare tactics.One can choose to go down the path and never take any medication because it might cause something in the future. One can sit suffering in silence. Or maybe one doesn't need it at all. I personally feel I do need medication so I again make a disclaimer that I speak also personally as someone who takes antipsychotics and has risk of TD, has taken antidepressants and gained weight, and has had withdrawal symptoms from medications, including benzodiazepines.
Heroin withdrawal for the grand majority population may not include seizures, but one can get a pretty good idea from Trainspotting as to what it entails.
A planned, gradual withdrawal and taper from benzodiazepines for one reason or another of discontinue, over periods of weeks to months depending on the dose and medication will for the vast majority of individuals successfully remove the patient from the substance. And I do mean gradual.
There is also, and I will repeat again, a distinction between withdrawal, dependence, addiction, and habituation.
Withdrawal is a medical sign of the lack of a drug in a system that has been habituated in an individual for the majority of individuals.
Dependence and addiction are another category -- physical dependence on a substance for no value or purpose other than some form of gratification from that substance that may possibly even be a genetic disposition such as alcohol abuse.
In conclusion, the responsible use of benzodiazepines when they are called for are still the most safest psychiatric medications, and believe it or not, there are people happily kept in balance since they were invented in 1958 (brought to market in 1960) to replace the ancient barbiturates that had been in use, some of whose effective doses can be near their lethal range.
I cannot think of a psychiatric medication that has been tested for 46 years that has fewer side effects than the proper use of benzodiazepines by their very virtue of 46 years of experience.People brought out of crippling social phobias and panic disorder that had previously been housebound. I dunno, I could go on. There is good, and bad, and inbetween. But comparing a C-IV medication to C-I Heroin is a little on the absurd spectrum, I am sorry.
Tidings.
Posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2006, at 4:06:31
In reply to Re: Oh, James K, posted by Declan on January 6, 2006, at 18:37:01
Hi Declan
How does your experience of benzo withdrawal compare with your experience of opioid withdrawal?
Ed
Posted by Declan on January 7, 2006, at 7:03:48
In reply to Re: Oh, James K » Declan, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2006, at 4:06:31
G'day Ed
In Benzo withdrawal, fear and tension are prominent; in opiate withdrawal, a coldness, fatigue, pain and insomnia. Sort of. The fear in benzo withdrawal is awful. Methadone withdrawal is prolonged.
Once I cut my benzo dose to 1/4 of what it had been. It was bad, but not impossible. There's no way I could have done that with methadone (or any of the major opiates).
Declan
Posted by valene on January 7, 2006, at 12:04:50
In reply to Re: Oh, James K-Phillipa » valene, posted by yxibow on January 7, 2006, at 0:08:49
Hi yxibow,
Not to belabor the point, but if you take a glance at the "heroin and opiate withdrawal" forum (and in the archives) you will see many people who have been on a benzo (albeit some abusing them too) but some on legitimate doses and who say that opiate or heroin withdrawal is a walk in the park compared to benzo withdrawal. Not my words because I have never been addicted to heroin or opiates.Heather Ashton may not impress you but she is the only perseon who did successfully taper 100's of people off benzos and has extensively studied them. I would not just write off her research.
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6508&SearchTerms=benzos
Posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2006, at 12:46:29
In reply to Re: Oh, James K » ed_uk, posted by Declan on January 7, 2006, at 7:03:48
Hi Dec
Opioids and benzodiazepines both have horrible withdrawal symptoms :(
The scary thing about being physically dependent on a prescribed opioid or a benzo is that your 'access' to the drug might be removed at any time. Some people are forced to withdraw quite abruptly. If your docotor retires, if you move to a different part of the country, if your doctor suddenly gets 'uncomfortable' about prescribing...........
Many psych drugs (notably Effexor) are associated with unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. Dependence on antidepressants is a lot less scary though. Almost all doctors are willing to prescribe SSRIs and Effexor. You don't get suspected of misusing your medication. No one tries to force you to withdrawal abruptly. Access to prescriptions is easy. You're less likely to get 'funny looks' in the pharmacy.
I'd never want to be dependent on a benzo in the UK. There are too many problems, forced withdrawal is likely. In countries where benzos are readily available, the problems associated with physical dependence are likely to be less.
Ed x
Posted by reefer on January 8, 2006, at 8:52:58
In reply to When are benzos justified?, posted by detroitpistons on January 3, 2006, at 15:21:05
I have an easy answer to that question. If i could just go into the pharmacy and buy all the benzos i wanted i would put myself on 10 mg of Xanax XR today without a second thought. Cause i know how horrible the shame of asking my doc for a new clonazepam script is. And it's not this doc that created this fear, it's the doctor i used to have before. The same doc that put me on it in the first place. As it is now i am on 0.5 mg of clonazepam per day. I would like to go much higher and my doc would let me. But now i just need a new script every six months if i increase the dosage i will need to ask for it more often. My problem has never been the drug itself, rather the opio/benzo phobia around me. That's just my five cents....
Posted by zeugma on January 8, 2006, at 9:28:51
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified?, posted by reefer on January 8, 2006, at 8:52:58
My problem has never been the drug itself, rather the opio/benzo phobia around me. That's just my five cents.... >>
My social phobia is worse than my embarrasment at the sidelong looks of benzophobic pharmacists. Social phobia makes it all but impossible for me to eat in public, for example, without Klonopin.
A couple of minutes of embarrasment at the pharmacy is nothing to being able to moderate my unrelenting claustrophobia, social phobia, and aggravations of IBS caused by episodes of severe anxiety. Klonopin moderates them: suggestions made by authors such as Dr. David Burns, in his book "Feeling Good", that benzos are undesirable in the treatment of anxiety disorders because they 'magically' ameliorate all anxiety, thus discouraging patients from continuing to enlist in his CBT programs, and then induce tolerance, so escalating dosages are required to achieve the same effect, are just not true, at least in my case. Well, it is true that i have lost all motivation to engage in CBT. But that is because of problems with CBT, not because of magical but fleeting effects of a benzo. The effects are neither magical nor fleeting, but very useful in my case , unlike effects of CBT. As a matter of fact one should realize that Burns is in the marketing business and benzos are clearly competition. Burns' praise for SSRI's as an adjunct to CB therapy is perhaps a reflection on the differential effectiveness of SSRI's vs. benzos in treating severe anxiety. (There is no question however, from reading this board, that SSRI's work much better than benzos for some forms of anxiety.)
As to the question of dependence/addiction: like Dr. Heather Ashton, Dr. David healy is a controversial figure in psychiatry. He is one who IMO has given much thought to matters involving benzos, SSRI's, and marketing issues, and was stripped of an appointment at a major Canadian university, allegedly because that university was the recipient of a large grant from from Eli Lilly, and Healy has lectured extensively on the adverse effects of prozac and other SSRI's. here is the link, to be read with a critical eye (just because I think he's on target is no reason anyone else should):
http://www.socialaudit.org.uk/58092-DH.htm
Perhaps he's wrong about the relative risks of benzodiazepine vs. SSRI withdrawal, but anyone capable of this astute obseervation:
<<Indeed, given that pharmaceutical companies now regard SPcs and PILs as advertising material that goes direct to the consumer, it is not clear that it is possible to regulate in a manner that prescinds from marketing>>
deserves to be taken seriously.
By the way, this is just a pedantic note but for what it's worth: I visited Ashton's site, and the 'overt Christian imagery' mentioned by an earlier poster appears to actually be the seal of the university she is affiliated with. That is merely a comment about a particular detail of her site, and neither validates nor invalidates any points made by any poster here.-z
Posted by ed_uk on January 8, 2006, at 9:49:34
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified?, posted by reefer on January 8, 2006, at 8:52:58
Hi Reefer
Benzos are available without a prescription in some European countries. You'll have to move!
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on January 8, 2006, at 10:01:28
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified?, posted by zeugma on January 8, 2006, at 9:28:51
Hi Z :)
>A couple of minutes of embarrasment at the pharmacy.....
.......is unpleasant but is not the reason why I would be frightened to take a benzo regularly.
The fear of being forced to withdraw would be my concern. Anyone who is considering initiating long-term benzodiazepine treatment must ensure (as much as possible) that long term 'access' to the drug will be relatively straight forward.
This depends on many factors.......
1. What country you live in
2. Whether benzos are OTC in your country
3. The attitude of the local doctors towards benzodiazepines
4. The attitudes of your own doctor toward benzodiazepines
5. Whether your current doctor is likely to remain your doctor for a prolonged period of time
6. Whether you are planning on moving to a different area
7. Whether you have a history of drug misuse
Regards
Ed
Posted by zero on January 8, 2006, at 11:55:29
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? » reefer, posted by ed_uk on January 8, 2006, at 9:49:34
What countries Ed?
> Benzos are available without a prescription in some European countries. You'll have to move!
>
Posted by reefer on January 8, 2006, at 15:53:25
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? » reefer, posted by ed_uk on January 8, 2006, at 9:49:34
> Hi Reefer
>
> Benzos are available without a prescription in some European countries. You'll have to move!
>
> EdYeah i guess, but moving to get it would be strong drug seeking behaviour. So in the end that would make *them* right! Wouldn't it!?
Posted by 4WD on January 8, 2006, at 21:55:59
In reply to When are benzos justified?, posted by detroitpistons on January 3, 2006, at 15:21:05
Benzos are justified for me for the simple reason that they are keeping me out of a psych ward. When I was not taking Klonopin, I was crawling in the floor, crying and screaming at God to please make the fear stop. Now I just am scared.
Marsha
Posted by sdb on January 9, 2006, at 8:32:40
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified?, posted by 4WD on January 8, 2006, at 21:55:59
justified remembers me to justice and thus guiltiness. I would ask: "When does a sufferer really has remarkable relief with benzos?"
Posted by valene on January 9, 2006, at 10:20:11
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified?, posted by 4WD on January 8, 2006, at 21:55:59
Hi Marsha,
I totally empathize with your statement below. May I ask if you had this severe fear and anxiety *before* you ever took Klonopin, or did you try to cut back on it and thus had the awful fear? I am trying myself to get off the xanax but it is so very difficult and I am riddled with fear and obsessive, dark thoughts and feelings. I did not feel this way before I ever went on the benzos. Not nearly as bad.Valene
> Benzos are justified for me for the simple reason that they are keeping me out of a psych ward. When I was not taking Klonopin, I was crawling in the floor, crying and screaming at God to please make the fear stop. Now I just am scared.
>
> Marsha
Posted by reefer on January 9, 2006, at 18:51:32
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? - 4WD, posted by valene on January 9, 2006, at 10:20:11
> Hi Marsha,
> I totally empathize with your statement below. May I ask if you had this severe fear and anxiety *before* you ever took Klonopin, or did you try to cut back on it and thus had the awful fear? I am trying myself to get off the xanax but it is so very difficult and I am riddled with fear and obsessive, dark thoughts and feelings. I did not feel this way before I ever went on the benzos. Not nearly as bad.
>
> Valene
>Xanax is a good benzo to be on. It is a horrible benzo to taper off of(not for everyone but for a lot of people). I suggest you switch to a benzo with a longer halflife. Preferebly diazepam, but clonazepam can also be ok.
Posted by 4WD on January 9, 2006, at 21:49:01
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? - 4WD, posted by valene on January 9, 2006, at 10:20:11
Hi Valene,
I had the anxiety before I started the Klonopin. That's why I started it. It started when I went off Effexor. First switched to Paxil and had to go on Xanax for a couple of weeks. Gave up on Paxil, and quit the Xanax. Back to Effexor and was okay again. Tried again with Paxil and the same thing happened. Tried Cymbalta and the same thing happened. I couldn't go back to Effexor because it wasn't working at all for depression and I had to have an AD that would work.
Anyway, the anxiety/terror started BEFORE the benzos. So it's not withdrawal. I've been through benzo withdrawal before (15 years ago with Ativan) and this is different. I hadn't taken a benzo since 1986 when this panic started out of the blue.
Marsha
> I totally empathize with your statement below. May I ask if you had this severe fear and anxiety *before* you ever took Klonopin, or did you try to cut back on it and thus had the awful fear? I am trying myself to get off the xanax but it is so very difficult and I am riddled with fear and obsessive, dark thoughts and feelings. I did not feel this way before I ever went on the benzos. Not nearly as bad.
>
> Valene
>
> > Benzos are justified for me for the simple reason that they are keeping me out of a psych ward. When I was not taking Klonopin, I was crawling in the floor, crying and screaming at God to please make the fear stop. Now I just am scared.
> >
> > Marsha
>
>
Posted by Declan on January 10, 2006, at 1:10:35
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? - 4WD, posted by valene on January 9, 2006, at 10:20:11
Yeah Valene, that's how I feel. The problems I had that led me to take benzos are as nothing compared to the problem of giving them up. It certainly puts those problems in perspective, I guess. That's just how it's been for me. I wish I'd never gone to the psych in the first place, and found a better place to look for a soul doctor.
Declan
Posted by Declan on January 10, 2006, at 1:13:48
In reply to Re: When are benzos justified? - 4WD » valene, posted by 4WD on January 9, 2006, at 21:49:01
Marsha, you've got something different, haven't you, if I remember correctly, waking in fear and stuff. I certainly don't want to be prescriptive.
Declan
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