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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on December 24, 2005, at 21:50:56
Just struck me -- I need noradrenergic drugs, yet I end up quite anxious with them. Is this likely to be true with ALL of them? Or only some? And how do they create this effect? What mechanism is involved? Is there a way to counter it?
And while we're on the subject, which we weren't, I'd like to wish everyone a happy holiday season, whether you like it or not. :-D
(Hey, just had a telephone call with my beloved mother. It included many tears, because she's STILL telling me that I "shouldn't" feel this way or that way.)
Posted by Glydin on December 25, 2005, at 10:37:50
In reply to Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by Racer on December 24, 2005, at 21:50:56
It is my understanding that it's due to the action of meds giving more of one's body available epinephrine. Being part of the "fight or flight" response of the body, it's like being hit with more ciculating adrenelin. Therefore, the actions of this "spin up, ready for action" chemical are the result.
I think the thought process is: in depressive states of lethergy and apathy, this "lack" is causing those depressive symptoms. Because of this, I think to override (or bring it to a good versus not so good level) this action is a matter of dosage as to the degree of stimulation versus overstim causing anxiety symptoms that are not wanted. Something like a benzo can sorta calm this response. Some also find over time, the brain "adjusts" and the extremeness of the toxic anxiety symptoms improve after startup stuff is gotten through.
That's how I understand it, but I'm not above having my understandings blown out of the water when I post them here. (smile)
Happy Holidays to you and yours, too.
Posted by rjlockhart on December 25, 2005, at 11:30:12
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety? » Racer, posted by Glydin on December 25, 2005, at 10:37:50
Noradrenaline is considered the attention chemical, envolved with ADHD, it is mainly envoleved with being alert, and being on the "egde". People with low amounts have attention promblems sometimes, but also with dopamine.
Panax Ginseng releases noradrenaline thats why you feel buzzed, but sometimes anxious becuase of overflow, too much sometimes can make you mentally unstable, such as feeling nuerotic. Like me. I need something to DECREASE noradrenaline, yet i take dexedrine for ADHD, its works more on dopamine, "the motivation chemical" high amounts of dopamine are envolved much in mania. When i have episodes, i do everything.
Hope this helps.
Matt
Posted by blueberry on December 25, 2005, at 11:33:13
In reply to Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by Racer on December 24, 2005, at 21:50:56
Generally speaking, and it varies from person to person, and I could be totally wrong in my own personal thoughts not backed up by science, I think NE uptake inhibitor meds do actually have anti-anxiety effects, but that NE releasing drugs cause anxiety. NE releasing meds would be like prozac, stimulants, and wellbutrin (both reuptake and release in one).
Adrenal gland exhaustion or over activity could be at play, and may explain why some people on NE meds get anxiety and others don't. Can test and fix with a doctor.
Dittos for thyroid function...even when thyroid tests appear to be ok, just being slightly in a low normal or high normal range can make a huge difference in medication reaction and tolerance. Both adrenal function and thyroid function I think are major players when it comes to NE.
Natural GABA levels might be too low to balance things out. GABA Calm by Source Naturals would be cheap, easy, and fast to try as a test. It is GABA, glycine, taurine, and is sublingual 100mg.
Hey, you know when someone is in bad shape? When they show up at psychobabble on Christmas Day! Yeah, that's me. Wishing you the best though!
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2005, at 12:34:48
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by blueberry on December 25, 2005, at 11:33:13
I still haven't really grasped the reasoning behind using noradenergic meds for anxiety disorders.
If I take a noradrenergic med, I get anxiety from the time I start till the time I discontinue, no adaption.
The doctor would always prescribe a beta blocker with effexor to reduce the anxiety, elevated BP etc.
There are a whole slew of natural supplements designed to reduce anxiety and stress by reducing noradrenergic output.
Linkadge
Posted by Racer on December 25, 2005, at 13:20:02
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by linkadge on December 25, 2005, at 12:34:48
LOL! Sorry, Link.
So, what do you do if you have anxiety problems AND the only meds that help your depression target NE?
Can you tell I'm feeling a bit, uh, bemused by my predicament?
Makes sense, by the way, what all are saying. I forget that NE and adrenaline are pretty well twin siblings...
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2005, at 13:47:01
In reply to So what do you do if ... ? » linkadge, posted by Racer on December 25, 2005, at 13:20:02
You could try a beta blocker. I found that a beta blocker reduced anxiety without totally reducing the AD effect. Atenolol was fairly good for this.
You may also try taking magnesium and vitamin C supplements right before the AD dose, they can kind of reduce excess adrenergic load.Another option might be to take melatonin at night. It can lower nightime cortisol, as well it might help the HPA axis out some.
Linkadge
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 25, 2005, at 14:44:47
In reply to Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by Racer on December 24, 2005, at 21:50:56
Noradrenergic AD's are my mainstay, the SSRI's just do not work for me. My depression tends to be issues of motivation and drive and less mood, which fits the noradrenergic model of depression as we understand it today. Noradrenergic AD's work so well I do not have big problems with anxiety. High dose Effexor and Wellbrutin don't bother me too much in the anxiety area though Effexor, after 10 years, had a major effect on BP.
What is needed for me is a counter agent. 15 years ago all we had was TCA's and the ones that were noradrenergic (Doxipin) were also very sedating. A one pill solution. Once the TCA's
pooped out I found a sedating AD at night with Effexor smoothed things out. Either Doxipin or Remeron. Now I am on Wellbrutin and Remeron.
I also use Atavin as needed, partly for GAD and partly for the AD induced anxiety. When the anxiety is more physical Inderal works quite well.j
Posted by Sarah T. on December 25, 2005, at 16:52:56
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by jamestheyonger on December 25, 2005, at 14:44:47
Hi James. You said that you are on Remeron and Wellbutrin. Have you experienced much weight gain on Remeron? I've heard that's a very effective antidepressant. The main complaint with it is the weight gain.
Posted by Phillipa on December 25, 2005, at 19:56:40
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety? » jamestheyonger, posted by Sarah T. on December 25, 2005, at 16:52:56
If cymbalta is an SNRI does that mean it has norepenephrine in it? I think does but not sure and how does this help anxiety that is internalized. My pulse even with valium goes up over l30beats a minute if I am stressed. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 25, 2005, at 20:02:07
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety? » jamestheyonger, posted by Sarah T. on December 25, 2005, at 16:52:56
"Hi James. You said that you are on Remeron and Wellbutrin. Have you experienced much weight gain on Remeron? I've heard that's a very effective antidepressant. The main complaint with it is the weight gain."
I only take 15 mgs for sleep, so I have not noticed it to be too bad.
Posted by 4WD on December 25, 2005, at 22:20:51
In reply to Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiety?, posted by Racer on December 24, 2005, at 21:50:56
> Just struck me -- I need noradrenergic drugs, yet I end up quite anxious with them. Is this likely to be true with ALL of them? Or only some? And how do they create this effect? What mechanism is involved? Is there a way to counter it?
>
> And while we're on the subject, which we weren't, I'd like to wish everyone a happy holiday season, whether you like it or not. :-D
>
> (Hey, just had a telephone call with my beloved mother. It included many tears, because she's STILL telling me that I "shouldn't" feel this way or that way.)I get the same increased anxiety and too much nervous energy feeling on SSRIs as well. NE drugs are worse but I get it on both. And dopamine enhancing drugs too. What a pickle.
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 26, 2005, at 19:06:55
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiet, posted by Phillipa on December 25, 2005, at 19:56:40
"If cymbalta is an SNRI does that mean it has norepenephrine in it?"
AD's do not contain neurotransmitters, they effect neurotransmitters.
Posted by greenhornet on December 27, 2005, at 7:53:53
In reply to Re: Why/how do noradrenergic drugs increase anxiet, posted by jamestheyonger on December 26, 2005, at 19:06:55
> "If cymbalta is an SNRI does that mean it has norepenephrine in it?"
>
> AD's do not contain neurotransmitters, they effect neurotransmitters.
------------------------------What about Strattera? I took it for about three years for ADD?depression. It seemed to work for the ADD at huge doses,(40mgm x3daily) but at those doses it made me violently nauseated and jittery.
I know that I am prone to idiosyncratic med reactions, but boy was I glad to get off that!
Posted by temoigneur on January 3, 2006, at 2:48:41
In reply to Re: Norephinehrine, posted by rjlockhart on December 25, 2005, at 11:30:12
Hi I was wondering what people took to counteract norepinephrine induced anxiety associated with drugs like welbutrin and effexor. Thanks
Posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2006, at 16:53:16
In reply to Re: Norephinehrine » rjlockhart, posted by temoigneur on January 3, 2006, at 2:48:41
Please include cymalta in there. Fondly, Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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