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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by reefer on January 1, 2006, at 16:50:33
Hi dear friends!
As some of you might remember i earlier posted about me using Subutex as an antidepressant/anti anxiety med. It used to be very easy getting the 8 mg pills for about $10 a pop. This was black market from Heroin addicts who used their prescription to pay for their H habit rather than trying to get off of H. Well lately things have changed for the worse. Price has more than doubled and availability is extremly low. So i decided to stop about a month ago. Very mild withdrawal i was surely expecting something much much worse. Lowering my clonazepam dosage by 0.125 mg is about 10x worse. Anyway this withdrawal lasted about 10 days and after that i was just left with my old feeling down, lazy, and anxious feeling that i had before starting on the buprenorphine. So now i am asking myself, should i go to a "drug abuse" treatment facility to be put on prescribed buprenorphine? I would have to lie that i'm addicted to opioid drugs and that i could handle. But what bothers me is the people there will look at me like im some kind of H addict doing nothing but stealing to support my habit. And lecture me on how bad drugs are and all that. Is it worth it? I mean buprenorphine really gives me a life. Without it, sure i can live. But i'm not happy with the quality of life. I guess i could try telling them whats really up but i seriosly doubt they will help me out. And Subutex can only be prescribed for the indication of opioid substitution therapy by doctors licensed to do so. And i am not an addict so i guess i wouldn't fall within that indication. I would really be grateful for some suggestions on what you would do in my position? Thank you all!
Posted by Racer on January 2, 2006, at 12:23:03
In reply to Buprenorphine for anxiety and depression, posted by reefer on January 1, 2006, at 16:50:33
Personally, I'd talk to my own doctor -- if I had one I trusted, obviously, so this won't work if you don't have that -- and say that I'd been successfully self-medicating with it. Then I'd ask if he/she could help me find a doctor who was willing to prescribe it off-label on his/her recommendation. If the answer was no, I'd go to one of those facilities, and tell the doctor the real story. Could be that he/she'd help you out.
On the other hand, maybe telling your doctor that iswas successful for you would be a way to help find something easier to get your paws on which would also work well for you? Could be worth a try...
Posted by pseudoname on January 2, 2006, at 12:40:58
In reply to Buprenorphine for anxiety and depression, posted by reefer on January 1, 2006, at 16:50:33
> As some of you might remember i earlier posted about me using Subutex
Hi, reefer. Yes, I read your post about self-prescribing bupe. *I* am now taking Subutex for depression because of what I read on Babble! Mostly Elizabeth S.'s posts.
> Very mild withdrawal
I'm glad to hear that.
> I would have to lie that i'm addicted to opioid drugs
Yeah, at a drug-abuse clinic, you'd probably have to lie to get bupe. At some, you'd have to test positive for opioids. If you want buprenorphine for depression, I would say do NOT go to any doctor who is listed by SAMHSA as having the special bupe license to treat addicts. I think it would be harder to get it for off-label purposes there.
> Subutex can only be prescribed for the indication of opioid substitution therapy by doctors licensed to do so
Buprenorphine can only be prescribed (in USA) by doctors with special SAMHSA waivers WHEN GIVEN TO *ADDICTS*.
But if the bupe is used only to treat pain or depression or anxiety, ANY doctor with a Schedule III license (basically, any doctor) can prescribe it. And any medicine including opioids can be prescribed off-label.
A lot of docs don't understand those laws. Mine didn't at first. If yours doesn't, show her the regulations and have her call a top-notch pharmacy to ask about it. That should clear things up.
Also, you could try getting the pain-med Buprenex, which is a liquid form of bupe (intranasal, sublingual or injected) that anyone can prescribe. It's never used to treat addicts.
You may want to try a pain clinic that has a pdoc on staff and that is not listed by SAMHSA. They might have experience with bupe off-label.
I assume you've used lots of drugs recreationally (given your nickname & black-market contacts). That may make pdocs reluctant to give you controlled substances. They don't want to get sued later for addicting someone to Subutex — they probably have no insurance for off-label prescriptions. And they don't want to enable someone's diversionary re-sales, for which the *docs* could get in serious trouble. So you should be willing to settle for Suboxone (less abusable, supposedly).
But especially since you've already had benefit of it and know you can tolerate it, I think you should be honest about your situation and history. If 8 mg lasted you 14 days, you were at a pretty low dose. I take up to 4mg a day; other non-addicts take even more for depression.
It may take some looking for a willing pdoc. If you're very honest and clear about •what you want and •how you know it benefits you and •how you already know you don't get dependent on it, lots of pdoc may be willing help you out. Also, print out the research & bring it in.
Subutex is the only "antidepressant" that's ever really worked for me. I've been on it 7 weeks.
Posted by reefer on January 2, 2006, at 18:15:39
In reply to buprenorphine for depression » reefer, posted by pseudoname on January 2, 2006, at 12:40:58
> Hi, reefer. Yes, I read your post about self-prescribing bupe. *I* am now taking Subutex for depression because of what I read on Babble! Mostly Elizabeth S.'s posts.
>
Nice, i hope it'll work for you in the long run!> Buprenorphine can only be prescribed (in USA) by doctors with special SAMHSA waivers WHEN GIVEN TO *ADDICTS*.
>
I'm in a EU country. Here Subutex can only be prescribed to addicts. There are two options though. "Norspan" which is a transdermal patch and comes in 5, 10, 20 mg per week. You switch the patch just ones a week. I think the 20 mg patch would work for me. And then theres temgesic which is just like Subutex but much lower dosed. 0.2 or 0.4 mg per tablet.
>
> I assume you've used lots of drugs recreationally (given your nickname & black-market contacts). That may make pdocs reluctant to give you controlled substances. They don't want to get sued later for addicting someone to Subutex — they probably have no insurance for off-label prescriptions. And they don't want to enable someone's diversionary re-sales, for which the *docs* could get in serious trouble. So you should be willing to settle for Suboxone (less abusable, supposedly).
>
Well the nickname goes way back. I used to smoke a little bit of weed in my younger years. I've tried most and every drug out there but i'm not and i have never been a serious drug user. Also i have never been arrested or have any documented drug use. And believe it or not. I don't have any black market contacts i go to places known to everyone as being the "bottom" of the world. Like the places you end up in when you really hit rock bottom. I used to get scammed a lot before i learned all their tricks. Now most of the people around there recognize me so at least i dont get ripped off anymore. Actually i went there today and got me two 8 mg's to cover for this week.> If 8 mg lasted you 14 days, you were at a pretty low dose. I take up to 4mg a day; other non-addicts take even more for depression.
>
I can honestly say that 0.5 mg * 3/day is enough for me. But i do take up to 4 mg/day mostly out of lazyness to cut the pills into smaller pieces. I just break it in half and let it melt in my mouth. I used to insufflate it but i couldn't stand the constant irritated and runny nose. Also using it sublingual seems to only give 30 - 50% of the effect compared to intranasal or s.c. injection. By this i dont mean it's more euphoric or anything. I just mean it's more economic. My girlfriend doesn't really like me using it any other way than sublingual.>
> Subutex is the only "antidepressant" that's ever really worked for me. I've been on it 7 weeks.
>
I bet it will keep working! It's the BEST antidepressant ever. At least for me it is.Thanks for the advice, i will keep it in mind. I'll also resarch where there are some pain clinics i could try and talk with some docs.
Posted by pseudoname on January 2, 2006, at 20:50:39
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression, posted by reefer on January 2, 2006, at 18:15:39
Hey, reefer.
> I'm in a EU country.
Oh. Hmm. I don't know much help then.
> There are two options though. "Norspan" [...] And then theres temgesic
So there's no buprenorphine product that's licensed in Europe for pain? I thought before Subutex/Suboxone, that's what bupe was usually used for.
> > I assume you've used lots of drugs recreationally (given your nickname & black-market contacts).
Sorry about my presumptions, LOL!
> using it sublingual seems to only give 30 - 50% of the effect compared to intranasal or s.c. injection
THAT is interesting. Elizabeth dripped the liquid form intranasally for years, as did others in her program. Hmmm. Hmmm.
Good luck, reefer!
Posted by reefer on January 2, 2006, at 22:22:10
In reply to interesting. good luck. » reefer, posted by pseudoname on January 2, 2006, at 20:50:39
> > There are two options though. "Norspan" [...] And then theres temgesic
>
> So there's no buprenorphine product that's licensed in Europe for pain? I thought before Subutex/Suboxone, that's what bupe was usually used for.
>
Yeah, both are buprenorphine products for pain. Norspan and Temgesic are both bupe.
Posted by ed_uk on January 3, 2006, at 14:30:00
In reply to interesting. good luck. » reefer, posted by pseudoname on January 2, 2006, at 20:50:39
Hi PN
In the UK, there are three brands of bupe for pain and one for the treatment of opioid dependence.......
Subutex sublingual tablets - for opioid dependence - we don't have Suboxone here
Temgesic sublingual tablets - for pain
The Transtec patch - for pain, you change the patch every 72 hours
The BuTrans patch - for pain, you change the patch every 7 days
Ed
Posted by reefer on January 3, 2006, at 15:09:47
In reply to Re: interesting. good luck. » pseudoname, posted by ed_uk on January 3, 2006, at 14:30:00
> Hi PN
>
> In the UK, there are three brands of bupe for pain and one for the treatment of opioid dependence.......
>
> Subutex sublingual tablets - for opioid dependence - we don't have Suboxone here
>
Same thing here, no suboxone.
> Temgesic sublingual tablets - for pain
>
> The Transtec patch - for pain, you change the patch every 72 hours
>
Don't have any 72hr bupe patches here. The only 72hr patches i know of available are fentanyl patches named Durogesic which i have tried and that was not a good experience(understand me right). Far to euphoric and sedating, exactly like diacetylmorphine without the rush. I'll leave those patches to the people that really need them. I have a gut feeling that they would cause me more trouble than good anyway. Anyway those TransTec patches look like exactly the thing i need. Higher dosed than BuTrans(only ones available here but brand is Norspan instead of BuTrans). One 40 mg patch would deliver 1.6 mg per 24/hr's compared to sublingual bupe. And that dose is pretty much exactly my preferred dose.
Posted by ed_uk on January 4, 2006, at 14:20:02
In reply to Re: interesting. good luck., posted by reefer on January 3, 2006, at 15:09:47
Hi
Transtec seems to have gained popularity recently. BuTrans is very new in the UK so few people use it yet.
>Durogesic
We have Durogesic here too :)
Regards
Ed
Posted by John45 on September 23, 2010, at 7:55:20
In reply to buprenorphine for depression » reefer, posted by pseudoname on January 2, 2006, at 12:40:58
Subutex is proving more and more to be HIGHLY effective in most people with long-standing depression/anxiety disorders. LOW doses (025-1 mg daily) seem to be all that is needed. I have a long history of anxiety/panic/depressive episodes that have not responded very well to SSRIs. I also take clonazepam (low dose). I have been on Subutex now for 3.5 years and every time I try to stop taking it I feel foul, unmotivated, negative and angry. Yes, there is withdrawal...yes, there may be some minor side effects...however I truly feel that many people who are life-long depressives are not getting this treatment which has the potential to normalize their lives. I understand the debate about using opiates for depression....addiction...etc. However, I have NO HISTORY of addiction and no interest in increasing my dose. Please feel free to comment and have a dialogue about this medication. If anyone is interested, I will post my "story."
All the best, John
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 23, 2010, at 16:43:09
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression » pseudoname, posted by John45 on September 23, 2010, at 7:55:20
John, I would like to hear your story...
I have some experience trying subutex for depression and my experience was very positive. I took about .2 mgs in the morning and it works for sure. I took it more on and off, kind of ike you would take a benzo ( as neded) on days tha I knew were going to be really bad. The reason I did not take it regularly was that I was afraid of the addiction and tolerance issues. I am open minded about opiates but must admit that they scare me in a way. Whether or not this is logical or not with a tiny dose of subutex... I don't know.
But as said before, I would love to hear your story as well as experiences with any withdrawal or tolerance you have experienced.. As well as your opinion of whether or not it was the partial mu activation or the kappa antagonist effects that helped. And can you tell a discrete difference between the two effects?Much thanks, JB
Posted by Cece on September 23, 2010, at 17:57:52
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression, posted by Jimmyboy on September 23, 2010, at 16:43:09
I'm glad to hear that this drug is useful for some folks and that it is available. I tried it a long time ago, maybe 15 years, back when it was only available in injectable form (I broke the little vials and took it sublingually), but all it did for me (I'm BPII) was to make me feel stoned in a floaty kind of way.
I was lucky enough to be working at the time with a psych doc who was young, creative, and willing to experiment. I had told him that vicodin worked as an AD for me and he had read a Harvard study about bupe for depression, so we decided to give it a try.
Posted by ewart on October 1, 2010, at 9:20:35
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression » pseudoname, posted by John45 on September 23, 2010, at 7:55:20
Life is simple actually, there is few thing you need- beatiful girl, beautiful car, beautiful house, lots of cash and a good antidepressant, Amen! for the last i choose the life enhancing drug- Parnate, thous little pills are so beautiful that they are almost cute
Posted by Jimmyboy on October 1, 2010, at 18:51:48
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression, posted by ewart on October 1, 2010, at 9:20:35
John45,
Can you please provide some follow up? You bumped about 4 threads on bupe here in one day and offerred to tell your story and then disappeared...
Posted by John45 on October 2, 2010, at 19:02:22
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression, posted by Jimmyboy on October 1, 2010, at 18:51:48
I am sorry for not posting more....I should have followed through. I have had the flu for a few days and on the mend. I will post my story (prepare yourself-it is long!) ASAP. Best regards, John
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2010, at 13:23:26
In reply to Re: buprenorphine for depression, posted by ewart on October 1, 2010, at 9:20:35
> Life is simple actually
Please remember not to change your posting name without following these steps:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#names
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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