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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by blueberry on September 6, 2005, at 15:46:40
Are there any meds that enhance the effects of GABA, other than the benzodiazepines? Any of the anticonvulsants for example? Anything?
I've recently discovered that xanax does wonders for me in terms of anti-anxiety, anti-panic, positive effect on motivation, and general well being. I only need .25mg four times a day. Without it, I get severe anxiety and panic, I mean emergency room kind of stuff. Very severe and very scary.
But I don't want to continue with xanax for fear of tolerance over time, dose escalation over time, and being addicted. My GP can prescribe it up to 4 months, but after that I would have to search for a pdoc to legally prescribe it long term. I don't want to do that.
I've been on 20mg prozac and 5mg zyprexa for years with no problems at all. But in the last few months anxiety and panic have developed very seriously to where I cannot hardly even tolerate an ssri any more and either zyprexa or seroquel only calm things down slightly but not nearly enough.
I need a GABA med, but preferably not a benzo. Any ideas?
Thank you!
Posted by willyee on September 6, 2005, at 17:06:07
In reply to GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by blueberry on September 6, 2005, at 15:46:40
> Are there any meds that enhance the effects of GABA, other than the benzodiazepines? Any of the anticonvulsants for example? Anything?
>
> I've recently discovered that xanax does wonders for me in terms of anti-anxiety, anti-panic, positive effect on motivation, and general well being. I only need .25mg four times a day. Without it, I get severe anxiety and panic, I mean emergency room kind of stuff. Very severe and very scary.
>
> But I don't want to continue with xanax for fear of tolerance over time, dose escalation over time, and being addicted. My GP can prescribe it up to 4 months, but after that I would have to search for a pdoc to legally prescribe it long term. I don't want to do that.
>
> I've been on 20mg prozac and 5mg zyprexa for years with no problems at all. But in the last few months anxiety and panic have developed very seriously to where I cannot hardly even tolerate an ssri any more and either zyprexa or seroquel only calm things down slightly but not nearly enough.
>
> I need a GABA med, but preferably not a benzo. Any ideas?
>
> Thank you!
>
>
Almost every anti-convulsant effects gaba,in fact there are only a few that dont,lamictal for example,but the majority do.
Unfortunaly just saying u need gaba isnt all these is.Like serotion there are different ways in which a med,drug,herb etc interacts with gaba,and usualy simply increasing gaba does nothing for anxiety and can actualy make it worse.Benzos have a specific function at benzo recpetors therefore effect gaba a certain way,i know it but prob a fellow member can explain it more clearly than i can,because of the way benzos affect specificaly gaba is what makes them unique,and more effective than anti-convlsants alone for anxiety.
If you respond so well to a benzo,chances are nothing will give u that rate of relief then in fact a benzo.
HOwever adding a gaba med such as a ani convulasant can do a lot of things,it can first help a benzo become more effective,which in turn can allow u to use a lower dose of a benzo,as well as use a benzo less,at the same time providing u with more reliaf.
A gaba med can also help a benzso from pooping out or devolping tolerance to one.Also as a benzo is different,so is a gaba anti-convualsant,and can offer additonal benifits which a benzo can not.
So there are a lot of reasons to use one,unfortunaly for hard core anxiety a gaba med usualy isnt sufficent enough alone without a benzo,however everyone is different.
Just fyi,ur common gaba meds are...
Depakote
Nuerontion
Topamax
Tegatrol
Also gabitril is a gaba med that unlike the rest really does MOSTLY just increase gaba levels and UNLIKE the others doesent do other things,so in the form of a pure gaba med,gabaitril would be the one to offer an increase in gaba.
Over the counter stuff that would increase gaba arePicamilion
l theanine
kava kava
taurine
The above all increase gaba in a more natural way,and all have qouted effects on helping anxiety.
Unfortnalty one of the most potent meds on gaba is ghb,currently xyrem,and currently 90 percent illegal.
Posted by MoparFan91 on September 6, 2005, at 19:22:58
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by willyee on September 6, 2005, at 17:06:07
GHB.
I've read newgroups on that about people's experiences, and they say that it works really well. However, here's a BIG downside to it (and I think this is what made it illegal):
A while after dosing, there's a major dopamine rebound effect as the GHB wears off. GHB blocks dopamine and increases GABA temporarily. Symptoms of this rebound effect are paranoia delusions, super agitation, anxiety beyond belief, fear, dark moods, noises seem amplified, dysphoria, anger, and other adverse symptoms. Not something you want to experience. I think after people complained about those rebound effects too much, GHB was eventually pulled off of the market and made illegal. At least, that's my conclusion on it.
Something that I've had good luck with that I find calming is GABA bonded with Niacinamide and Inositol. The Niacinamide and Inositol get more GABA into the brain, I believe.
Take 1,000mg of GABA, 500mg of Inositol, and 500mg of Niacinamide; and you should notice a calming in around an hour.
Posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2005, at 21:13:43
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos? » willyee, posted by MoparFan91 on September 6, 2005, at 19:22:58
I've heard that ghb is the date rape drug. And usually if you're anxiety is relieved by a benzo you won't increase it. There's no need to if your symptoms are controlled. maybe if your doc sees this he will let you continue. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by willyee on September 7, 2005, at 0:21:15
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos? » willyee, posted by MoparFan91 on September 6, 2005, at 19:22:58
Youre right on about its gaba/dopamine effects.
But heres the thing,unfortunaly u have people who took it 24/7.So like a benzo they were in constant rebound,needing more.
However anyone who took it more responsably,at a fair dose,once to twice a day,would tell u more likly it wast as bad as it was made out to be.
A single fair dose will produce a dopamine rebound,however u still have increased gaba and the dopamine rebound is mild almost pleaseant,and if not nothing a small small pieace of a benzo would take care of.
It as u know it now a prescription drug,in order to make a natural supplement a prescription drug u have to go through numerous procedures.Is there a way to avoid the long procedures,yess,present the drug as an imediate danger to the public.GHB quickly became the date rape drug and was banned.
If it is toxic or dangerous,it would not be a prescription medication for any reason,whetehr its for one condtion or a thosuand,yet it is.
You are right though,ghb is not a simple gaba supplement,it is extremly powerful and can be abused very easly,on the same note i personaly used it correctly and it did nothing but provide relieaf from depression anxiety and social avoidance for me.Its a double edged sword.
Posted by Tom Twilight on September 7, 2005, at 3:47:02
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by willyee on September 7, 2005, at 0:21:15
There are quite a few non benzo gaba meds scattered throughout the world.
As Willyee says, most of them are anti-convulsants
GABA Transaminase inhibitors are one option that hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread.
Nardil is one such med, because one of its metabolites inhibits GABA Transaminase.
I think that why Nardil is probably the most effective AD for anxietyAnother interesting option is Vigabatrin
"Vigabatrin is an irreversible inhibitor of gamma-aminobutyric acid transaminase (GABA-T), the enzyme responsible for the catabolism of the inhibitory neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) in the brain"
Vigabatrin has been demonstrated to have some anxti-anxiety and anti panic properties, I think.
It can cause permanent visual field deffects unfortunatly, which is scary
However you'd have to be on it for several months to have this problemHere is a link to a study of Vigabatrin in cocain addicts: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3128796.stm
Unfortunatly Vigabatrin is not available in the US
I've used GHB for anxiety myself in the past
Unfortunatly its difficult to sift the truth from the misinformation about this drug.
Its a very interesting chemcial, but can be very addictive!
Posted by willyee on September 7, 2005, at 5:00:11
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by Tom Twilight on September 7, 2005, at 3:47:02
Exellent post,excellent.Ive heard of the drug you mentioned,overall do you know if it has a good success rate,one that is signifiacatly high or is it mediacore like most of the gaba meds,meaning is it something that is packing a WOW for anxiety and anti-social?
Also GHB i will accept the addiction stories on it and give credit to the drugs bad side there.Aside from the people who see it recreational and get addicted who ask for it,there are some who unknowingly become addicted to it due to its immense effecviness for some.So there i agree it can be very dangerous.
As far as the date rape goes,THAT IS SIMPLY ABSURD.How can a drug cause date rape?GHB should never ever even be in the presence of a bar,there would NEVER be a need for it.
Also GHB alone is not the date rape drug,GHB poured into an ALCHOLIC drink is.
Know what,you crush some benzos of ur choice,valium,kloonopin and so have you,and mix them UNKNOWINGLY into a persons drink you have your date rape drug,he- even nyquil dumped in a drink would bring someone down.Its called creating a MICKIE.
So whats the real culprit here,well aclholol would be SECOND,first would be the person involved.I CAN NOT BELIEVE how easly people are misguided into blaminng a substance,blinding themselve to what it is,how it works etc and FORGETTING that a date rape drug is that ONLY because a individual made it to be.How in the world can someone look down on the drug because of that.I just dont get it!! When i hear ghb date rape it really gets to me.
Again i do respect the situation of addiction people have fell into.
GHB for me has worked beautfully in combos,used in droplet doses it helps halt body tremor from anxiety,and is very effective.At a reasonable dose there is no giant rebound,in fact a xanax rebound is wayyyy stronger than a moderate dose ghb rebound.
I plan on asking a sleep doc now for it,i truly hope he considers prescribing me xyrem,i only wish it were still legal and available.
Thanks tom,i forgot all about the drug u menitoned,gonna look it up,for whatever resaon i thought that was gabatril.Thanks
Posted by Tom Twilight on September 7, 2005, at 15:55:09
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by willyee on September 7, 2005, at 5:00:11
> Exellent post,excellent.Ive heard of the drug you mentioned,overall do you know if it has a good success rate
Hey Willyee
I'm glad you like my post!
Unfortunatly I have no idea how effective Vigabatrin is for anxiety.
Unfortunatly I suspect its not incredibly effective, or we would have heard more about it.Its probably more effective than things like Neurotin though
>
> Also GHB i will accept the addiction stories on it and give credit to the drugs bad side
> As far as the date rape goes,THAT IS SIMPLY ABSURD.How can a drug cause date rape?GHB should never ever even be in the presence of a bar,there would NEVER be a need for it.Yes its very sad, date rape hysteria has been used to demonise a flawed but very useful substance.
It makes me depressed to think about, I wonder what wonderful drugs could have been developed from GHB?> GHB for me has worked beautfully in combos,used in droplet doses it helps halt body tremor from anxiety,and is very effective.At a reasonable dose there is no giant rebound,in fact a xanax rebound is wayyyy stronger than a moderate dose ghb rebound.
>
Its scary that Xanax has a stronger anxiety rebound than GHB!
Despite having not respected GHB I'm still more or less OK, it sounds like Xanax could be more addictive
Posted by Chairman_MAO on September 9, 2005, at 0:05:24
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by willyee on September 6, 2005, at 17:06:07
Most anticonvulsants do not affect gaba. The one common thing nearly all of them do is actually fast sodium channel blockade.
Tegretol does not affect GABA. Neurontin only increases GABA synthesis; otherwise it affects Ca++.
Topamax has weak gaba-a potentiation.
Depakote is the only one here that I would say has gabanergic activity powerful enough to be useful in psychiatry as a gabanergic agent (SSADH and GABA-T inhibition and increased gaba synthesis possibly, IIRC).
Posted by vbAgent on September 9, 2005, at 1:26:01
In reply to GABA meds other than benzos?, posted by blueberry on September 6, 2005, at 15:46:40
The nonbenzodiazepine hypnotics: Lunesta (new), Ambien and Sonata. As you may already know, these drugs are mainly indicated for the treatment of insomnia. They enhance GABA which results in sedative, anxiolytic, anticonvulsant and myorelaxant properties.
Hope this helps ... take care.
Posted by willyee on September 9, 2005, at 11:31:03
In reply to Re: GABA meds other than benzos? » willyee, posted by Chairman_MAO on September 9, 2005, at 0:05:24
My post stated....."Almost every anti-convulsant effects gaba"
( I did not state they increase gaba or exactly how they affect gaba just that they touch gaba in some form.) Your reply as follows.....
> Most anticonvulsants do not affect gaba. The one common thing nearly all of them do is actually fast sodium channel blockade.
" **Anticonvulsants++** like Carbamazepine are believed to work in part by by enhancing the actions of a natural brain chemical, **GABA** (gamma-aminobutyric acid). GABA is a neurotransmitter, a chemical that carries messages between brain nerve cells "Source
---http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=933 ----
> Tegretol does not affect GABA.
" Mechanisms of action
Carbamazepine blocks frequency-, use- and voltage-dependent neuronal sodium channels, and therefore limits repetitive firing of action potentials.
It also affects calcium channels, **GABA** receptors, and adenosine receptors, and increases concentrations of serotonin and other neurotransmitters. Whether these effects contribute to its anticonvulsant activity is not clear. "Source
>Neurontin only increases **GABA** synthesis; otherwise it affects Ca++.
"Then there are the **GABA analogues.** These meds are basically fake GABA, a neurotransmitter critical to treating epilepsy, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorder and a variety of other issues. Real GABA can't cross the blood-brain barrier, so don't waste your money on buying GABA at the health food store. Gabitril isn't really a GABA analogue, but it gets classified as such because all it does is potent GABA reuptake inhibition and absolutely nothing else. No voltage channel modification, no messing with glutamate or kainate. Nothing. So it may as well be fake GABA because you get slammed with enough of it when you take some. Trust me on that point. "**Neurontin** (gabapentin)
Lyrica (pregablin)
Gabitril (tiagabine)
Source
--http://www.crazymeds.org/anticonvulsants.html--> Topamax has weak gaba-a potentiation.
" Anyway, here's what Topamax does for you:It messes with your calcium and sodium voltage channels. Messing with voltage channels are one way anticonvulsants deal with reducing the hyperactivity in your brain that results in seizures and/or bipolar mood swings.
It makes you really receptive to the **GABA** you have in your brain. Not barbiturate-level receptive, but pretty damn receptive. That's why it knocks you out and leaves you feeling pretty worn out all day. It's also why it's an effective anticonvulsant and half-decent mood stabilizer. GABA is a key neurotransmitter in quelling bipolar and epileptic hyperactivity. It's also quite useful in dealing with various pain issues like migraines. "
Source
----- http://www.crazymeds.org/topamax.html -----
In my post i just stated anti convulsants affected gaba in some way shape or form,i did not specify how each one did.Also although i did not make it nearly half as clear as u have,i did in fact however state they perform other functions than affect gaba......
" Also gabitril is a gaba med that unlike the rest really does MOSTLY just increase gaba levels and **UNLIKE the others doesent do other things**,so in the form of a pure gaba med,gabaitril would be the one to offer an increase in gaba. "
Please Dont take this the wrong way,but i give u a lot of credit,have bugged your for a lot of advice via email which is still apreciated,....
However please dont go out of your way to contradict something i say,and to portray i have no idea of what im speaking of.
I am usualy very careful in what i say in posts,i try my best not to misinform,i dont believe i did in this case,and i kinda take offense to the way you pulled apart my post as to make me look clueless.
Again i hope u dont take this to heart,it just offended me,especialy since it comes from someone who i think pretty higly of as far as knowing there shi---.Thanks in advance.
This is the end of the thread.
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