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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Spriggy on March 25, 2005, at 18:18:23
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6) » SLS, posted by Larry Hoover on March 25, 2005, at 18:05:01
Can I just tell you that I come here everyday because I know first of all that;
1) you will listen and answer my questions- even when they are absurd.
2) you make me feel like I'm not alone in this.
I've been amazed to see how many other people feel this way. Misery truly does love company. ROFL3) I can learn more here than I can from reading any old book!
I just have to say that you all are the best. I pray for all of you each day and ask that one day, God will deliver all of us from this nasty mental darkness.
Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2005, at 18:35:38
In reply to I love you people, posted by Spriggy on March 25, 2005, at 18:18:23
Just got home from the pdocs. I picked up a magazine in her office. It is called BP magazine, hope and harmony for people with bipolar.Carrie Fisher was on the cover. I brought it home with me to read, but I left about 10 other magazines in her office for others to read. Have any of you heard of a magazine for Bipolar illness? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by sheer on March 26, 2005, at 9:40:05
In reply to Biploar VI (6), posted by katherpoo on March 25, 2005, at 16:53:02
this is a very interesting discussion! hope you all will permit me to be the resident unipolar/ casting my "counter" vote, just for the sake of "variety."
first off, thanx to maxine for clarifying that bipolar I is indeed NOT unipolar - of very basic importance, to be sure.
secondly, i'd like to see if anyone else senses, as i do, that bipolar of all kinds - but, perhaps, at ths point in time - particularly bipolar II, is NOW being over diagnosed....as if the pendulum has swung too far to the other side, as opposed to years ago and for decades, when it was underdiagnosed and/ or misdiagnosed?
here is my own experience: about 15 years ago, i was misdiagnosed as having - they had to get as extreme as possible right out of the gate - bipolar I and with rapid cycling. 9-10 yrs later, an adept and compassionnate female pdoc finally listened to me and said, eureka/ by george!... i believe you're right - you ONLY have unipolar.
(for decades prior, unipolar major depression had always been my diagnosis). around this same time, it was brought to my attention by another professional in our community, that the pdoc who had origianlly dxed me with bipolar, ONLY dxed bipolar, never unipolar, or, for that matter, anything else(!!!) he has since been run out of town "on a rail." but, here's how insideous this can be: once bipolar was on my record, 5-6 pdoc in 2 states thought it was the gospel & for nearly a decade. thus, i was treated with mood stabilizers that i never needed in the first place...enduring all manner of heinous side effects, both physical and mental.now, let me back up here and state clearly: i did not, nor do i now, feel there should be any stigma attached to having bipolar (nor any other mental illness). that is a "luxury" afforded to the uninformed (being nice here) and to those who want to feel superior. being an artist, i actually thought having bipolar was "neat" (please forgive me that!) and perhaps to be expected/ only a matter of time. and, yes, having a high IQ is, as detective monk says, both a blessing and a curse. mine is 160.
another point i want to make is this: when i was thought to be bipolar, pdocs gave me ALOT more "attention." it was like their egos were VERY involved. i was a "challenge" to them, that they were determined to "rise to the occasion of." since, as a "lowly" unipolar, i have been much more on "my own", but the good news is i have HAD to learn a LOT about both.
thoughts? similar experinces? (i do often still feel too alone, in having had this happen)
Posted by Ritch on March 26, 2005, at 10:43:04
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6) » katherpoo, posted by Larry Hoover on March 25, 2005, at 17:51:21
> > Has anyone ever heard of this? Bipolar 6? My shrink says it's an alternative way of thinking about my anxiety/pnaic/hypomania... that I'm on the other end of the "biploar spectrum" where I'm about 98% manic/anxious and 2% depressed... whereas many of you know Bipolar I is unipolar depression...
>
> There is one proposed categorization system that defines Bipolar VI as unipolar mania. There are other systems, so I'm hoping to avoid confusion here. This system seems to be the one that fits.
>
> About 5% of bipolar individuals really aren't bipolar at all, as they do not have moods that drop into the depressive region. They're normal, hypomanic, or manic.
>
> What that means is that you would not benefit from certain common treatments, such as antidepressants. Your therapy would be targetted towards the hypomanic/activated symptoms. Panic and anxiety could be seen as irritable aspects of hypomania.....
Whenever I was first diagnosed a long time ago and successfully treated for a mixed-state with lithium and doxepin, I developed a nearly consistent hypomania with few depressive dips at all. I remember my therapist asking me at the time: "Are you *always* high"? In retrospect it probably was doxepin induced hypomania.
Posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 12:09:24
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6) » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on March 26, 2005, at 10:43:04
can someone explain the main difference between unipolar and bipolar?
If one has unipolar, would they have the horrible agitated states?
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:37:27
In reply to explain the difference, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 12:09:24
> can someone explain the main difference between unipolar and bipolar?
>
> If one has unipolar, would they have the horrible agitated states?Imagine mood lying on a scale of -10 up to +10, with zero being normal (euthymia).
A unipolar depressive would only experience moods that lie between 0 and -10. A unipolar manic would only experience moods that lie between 0 and +10 (That's the bipolar type VI that we've been discussing). A bipolar type one might experience moods between -5 and +10. A bipolar type 2 might experience those between -10 and +5.
I'm being very crude in my analogy, but it makes sense that the different ranges of mood swings might lead to very different treatment strategies.
Lar
Posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 12:49:31
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Spriggy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:37:27
Well, from Larry's point of view (which I thought was a brilliant analogy by the way! I'm still convinced you weren't bottle fed), I really must have Bipolar 2.
Thanks Larry.. You should win the genius of the psycho babble boards award.
I nominate you.
Posted by katherpoo on March 26, 2005, at 13:06:36
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6), posted by sheer on March 26, 2005, at 9:40:05
I can't tell if you were taking a jab at me with your IQ point. Please forgive me, I'm new her and this was my first point beyond my intro. There was no "need to feel superior" going on here; rather I'm feeling quite hellish right now and am desperately looking for answers. I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Wasn't looking to ruffle any feathers...
Posted by sheer on March 26, 2005, at 15:21:17
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6)scheer, posted by katherpoo on March 26, 2005, at 13:06:36
helllo? i don't see how you or anyone could think i was taking a jab at you re: high IQ. i thought it was very clear that i was agreeing and/ or empathizing with you that high IQ is indeed very common/ goes hand-in-hand with those who have a mood-disordered diagnosis. beyond that, i was injecting a bit of (general) levity - always helps me.
for the record, i don't take jabs at people or call them out...that is for attention seekers. i just wanted to get a dialogue going and took this opportunity to share my story....finally. (as it has seemed, in the past, to be far more common for a bipolar to be misdiagnosed as unipolar, instead of the "opposite," which is what happened to me.)
sorry to hear you are having a hard time. for the first time in ages, i am not.
regards, sheer
Posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 16:44:21
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Spriggy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:37:27
> > can someone explain the main difference between unipolar and bipolar?
> >
> > If one has unipolar, would they have the horrible agitated states?
>
> Imagine mood lying on a scale of -10 up to +10, with zero being normal (euthymia).
>
> A unipolar depressive would only experience moods that lie between 0 and -10. A unipolar manic would only experience moods that lie between 0 and +10 (That's the bipolar type VI that we've been discussing). A bipolar type one might experience moods between -5 and +10. A bipolar type 2 might experience those between -10 and +5.
>
> I'm being very crude in my analogy, but it makes sense that the different ranges of mood swings might lead to very different treatment strategies.
>
> Lar
>
Lar,Your analogy talks about moods only though. What about the depressed agitated states? Can a unipolar experience those or does having those mean that one is bipolar?
K
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 17:06:54
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 16:44:21
> Your analogy talks about moods only though. What about the depressed agitated states? Can a unipolar experience those or does having those mean that one is bipolar?
>
> KThat is a matter of much debate. It depends on whether you measure depression on multiple axies, or not. Irritability, physical agitation, sleep disturbance, cognitive activation....I can think of a host of associated symptoms which may or may not coincide with mood.
I guess that a true unipolar depressive, absent any activating characteristics, might be as rare as a unipolar manic.
Lar
Posted by katherpoo on March 26, 2005, at 17:09:11
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6) sheer, posted by sheer on March 26, 2005, at 15:21:17
> helllo? i don't see how you or anyone could think i was taking a jab at you re: high IQ. i thought it was very clear that i was agreeing and/ or empathizing with you that high IQ is indeed very common/ goes hand-in-hand with those who have a mood-disordered diagnosis. beyond that, i was injecting a bit of (general) levity - always helps me.
>
> for the record, i don't take jabs at people or call them out...that is for attention seekers. i just wanted to get a dialogue going and took this opportunity to share my story....finally. (as it has seemed, in the past, to be far more common for a bipolar to be misdiagnosed as unipolar, instead of the "opposite," which is what happened to me.)
>
> sorry to hear you are having a hard time. for the first time in ages, i am not.
>
> regards, sheer
>
>
Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding. I, too, generally do not call people out - unless I feel I'm being attacked. There were elements in what you said that did not feel empathetic, but let's call it water under the bridge. As a newbie here you can imagine I have no idea how people "dialogue" around here. I will admit my guard is *way* up; in life, it has to be, quite necessarily.I am glad to hear that you're doing better than before, and that you had the chance to share your story. It's an inspiration for the rest of us.
Humbly - K
Posted by Ritch on March 26, 2005, at 17:26:14
In reply to Re: explain the difference » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 17:06:54
> > Your analogy talks about moods only though. What about the depressed agitated states? Can a unipolar experience those or does having those mean that one is bipolar?
> >
> > K
>
> That is a matter of much debate. It depends on whether you measure depression on multiple axies, or not. Irritability, physical agitation, sleep disturbance, cognitive activation....I can think of a host of associated symptoms which may or may not coincide with mood.
>
> I guess that a true unipolar depressive, absent any activating characteristics, might be as rare as a unipolar manic.
>
> Lar
>
There is a lot of debate right now about whether people who have traditionally been diagnosed with "anxious" or "agitated" depression are actually experiencing bipolar "mixed" symptoms instead. I'm definitely BPII, but my anxiety and panic tend only to happen during seasonal major depressive episodes. I'm not nearly as panicky and anxious in my "high" phases. If I get hostile, however, the panic tends to happen because I freak out about stuff I've said or done.
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 17:55:48
In reply to Re: explain the difference, posted by Ritch on March 26, 2005, at 17:26:14
Not to upset anybody, but I wish I could experience a hypomanic state. It happened to me once I think when i was restarted on Luvox. Of course it could have been that I was involved in a new venture. I would actually look forward to getting up early too, and was happy! My pdoc said I didn't know what it was like to feel "normal". If that was normal, then I must always be depressed. This is a very informative discussion and I'm learning a lot! Thanks to everyone, Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 17:57:11
In reply to Re: explain the difference » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 17:06:54
Posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 18:01:35
In reply to Re: explain the difference, posted by Ritch on March 26, 2005, at 17:26:14
> > > Your analogy talks about moods only though. What about the depressed agitated states? Can a unipolar experience those or does having those mean that one is bipolar?
> > >
> > > K
> >
> > That is a matter of much debate. It depends on whether you measure depression on multiple axies, or not. Irritability, physical agitation, sleep disturbance, cognitive activation....I can think of a host of associated symptoms which may or may not coincide with mood.
> >
> > I guess that a true unipolar depressive, absent any activating characteristics, might be as rare as a unipolar manic.
> >
> > Lar
> >
>
>
> There is a lot of debate right now about whether people who have traditionally been diagnosed with "anxious" or "agitated" depression are actually experiencing bipolar "mixed" symptoms instead. I'm definitely BPII, but my anxiety and panic tend only to happen during seasonal major depressive episodes. I'm not nearly as panicky and anxious in my "high" phases. If I get hostile, however, the panic tends to happen because I freak out about stuff I've said or done.
>
My depression is always extremely anxious if I'm not on any medication. I have a feeling the debate will eventually end with the bipolar supporters winning out.
Posted by ed_uk on March 26, 2005, at 18:23:56
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Ritch, posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 18:01:35
Hello,
I get very irritable and hostile when I'm depressed, I'm not bipolar though. I might have benefited from a mood stabiliser to treat the irritability- you don't need a diagnosis of bipolar disorder to benefit from an anticonvulsant or lithium.
Ed.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 22:08:27
In reply to Re: explain the difference, posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 17:55:48
> Not to upset anybody, but I wish I could experience a hypomanic state. It happened to me once I think when i was restarted on Luvox. Of course it could have been that I was involved in a new venture. I would actually look forward to getting up early too, and was happy! My pdoc said I didn't know what it was like to feel "normal". If that was normal, then I must always be depressed. This is a very informative discussion and I'm learning a lot! Thanks to everyone, Fondly, Phillipa
Then you're a lot like me.
If your "normal" is not zero on that scale of -10 to +10, that does not mean that you can't have another pattern of mood swings superimposed upon that.
I have a dysthymic temperament, a stable, slightly depressed "normal" (for me) state. Perhaps a -2 or -2.5. Superimposed upon that are some major swings into the big minus numbers, with the occasional foray up to around zero. I used to think I was BP2, thinking I achieved hypomania, but I have been convinced by my medical caregivers that they have never seen evidence of hypomania (excluding an episode triggered by medication). It feels like hypomania to me, because it's better than my normal -2.
Some doctors call this dysthymia with superimposed major depression "double depression".
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 22:23:47
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 22:08:27
Lar, I've read about double depression and always thought I had it. Even when I had my first anxiety attack in my early 20's, they kept trying to say I was depressed. I always said no because I was bringing up a family and thought I was fine. But, I've always loved to sleep. Never been able to get up early. I worked 3-ll because by then I was waking up. Even now I can't go to sleep even with meds til close to 2am. I "make" myself do things. So, what should I be taking if AD's don't work. The only thing I respond to is valium. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jasmineneroli on March 26, 2005, at 23:37:03
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 22:23:47
Hi all:
I've been trying to gather info on the bipolar topic to present to my pdoc next visit, because I'm still getting high irritability cycles and something that FEELS like it might be hypomania, every 5 or 6 days.
Anyway, I came across this link that you may find interesting.http://www.psycheducation.org/bipolar/02_diagnosis.html#Anchor-Anxious-4328
It's especially interesting in terms of linking anxiety to bipolar states. It's written by a psychiatrist and I love a quote at a certain part of the info: " WARNING: Leaving DSM-IV territory" !!
It also has a very good explanation of Mixed States.
Regards,
Jas
Posted by barbaracat on March 27, 2005, at 21:31:55
In reply to Re: Biploar VI (6), posted by Maxime on March 25, 2005, at 17:55:45
Agree with Maxime. BP-I is not unipolar depression. Although my main complaint is anxious depression, I can get hypomanic pretty easily, especially on SSRIs or with stress and that's pretty typically BP-II. Thankfully, most of my symptoms are moderate, but I've had a number of severe episodes with psychosis and this is another animal alltogether. If there truly is a hell, it's BP-I mixed states depression.
Posted by barbaracat on March 27, 2005, at 21:54:38
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Spriggy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:37:27
A bipolar type one might experience moods between -5 and +10. A bipolar type 2 might experience those between -10 and +5.
>
**But the +'s on the scale can be euthymic or dysthymic and that's where so much of the confusion lies. Mixed states depression is more like -10 to +10 but it's rocket-fueled depression, nothing euthymic about it.The 'euthymic' description for mania is the one that has kept many of us, myself included, from realizing we were bipolar. I used to read romanticized versions of mania thinking 'wish I had me some of that fun mania', not realizing that's what my anxiety, agitation and irritability really were.
In retrospect, I can see the signs were there all along, including 'fun manias' but BP can take SO MANY different forms. If it weren't for responding so dramatically to Lithium I'd still be denying it. - Barbara
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 22:16:21
In reply to Re: explain the difference » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on March 27, 2005, at 21:54:38
> A bipolar type one might experience moods between -5 and +10. A bipolar type 2 might experience those between -10 and +5.
> >
> **But the +'s on the scale can be euthymic or dysthymic and that's where so much of the confusion lies. Mixed states depression is more like -10 to +10 but it's rocket-fueled depression, nothing euthymic about it.
>
> The 'euthymic' description for mania is the one that has kept many of us, myself included, from realizing we were bipolar. I used to read romanticized versions of mania thinking 'wish I had me some of that fun mania', not realizing that's what my anxiety, agitation and irritability really were.
>
> In retrospect, I can see the signs were there all along, including 'fun manias' but BP can take SO MANY different forms. If it weren't for responding so dramatically to Lithium I'd still be denying it. - BarbaraSorry, I was just trying to keep things simple....not to deny further variations within the spectrum.
Lar
Posted by barbaracat on March 27, 2005, at 22:30:13
In reply to Re: explain the difference » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 22:16:21
> Sorry, I was just trying to keep things simple....not to deny further variations within the spectrum.
>
**Lordy, if only it were more simple. By the time we reach BP-X, I truly hope some of those divisions get their own diseases! Maybe calling them by their faultly gene sequence expressions would be more useful, actually tell us something. Be well, Barbara
Posted by katherpoo1 on March 29, 2005, at 10:16:50
In reply to Re: explain the difference, posted by barbaracat on March 27, 2005, at 22:30:13
This is the end of the thread.
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