![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 20:02:26
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by banga on December 20, 2004, at 18:40:54
Its the hedonic treadmil. For some reason the brain thinks its in our best interest to wander through life feeling lousy.
Linkadge
Posted by jujube on December 20, 2004, at 20:28:04
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 20:02:26
I don't know if the brain necessarily thinks its in our best interest to wander through life in misery, but perhaps there is a bit of self-preservation or learned complacancy at play, and cognitions that were learned/acquired during a depressive episode need to be unlearned as an antidepressant starts to work. I know that what I am about to say will also sound crazy, but it is almost as if when an AD starts to work, a person is awakening from state of almost self-centeredness (by this I mean that when we are depressed, all we tend to think about is how bad we feel, how empty our lives are, what failures we are, and, sometimes, how we would be better off dead, etc.) to more of an awareness of what is going on around us, the good that exists and even our own strengths and positive personal attributes. This, perhaps, results in focussing on what we have missed during the depressive episode and how a part of our lives has passed us by and our progress in certain areas has been stifled for a time. It's almost like bitter recriminations replace the depressive thoughts (e.g., we have a hard time accepting that we are starting to feel better because of the time we feel we lost/wasted being depressed). And, then there is the fear that "it" could happen again, that this happiness may only be fleeting, etc. So, again, it's about cognition, I think, and the need to work at to changing the thought processes and learning to live in the moment and to not dwell on the past or on what may happen tomorrow.
Tamara
> Its the hedonic treadmil. For some reason the brain thinks its in our best interest to wander through life feeling lousy.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by JackD on December 21, 2004, at 9:18:32
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 20:02:26
I agree with linkadge, i think the human brain is just hardwired to force itself to go back down from any state of what it feels to be, a "reward" state. I mean think about it, if, evolutionarily speaking, and this is a stretch, when man was first roaming around, and came across food and ate it, and felt happy and content after enjoying his meal, and that feeling just never subsided, he'd kinda just sit there and starve. Ok that's a HORRIBLE example. But I'm sure it's self-evident what I'm trying to explain.
It's like your brain has a mechanism to make sure you always come down from feeling "too good", so that you can go in search of a new thing to satisfy whatever base urges are needed for survival. It's a residual hardwiring that's left over from evolution. I dunno, maybe I've been reading too much of John Lilly's work recently, I'm just ranting now.
Taking an antidepressant kinda artificially pushes your brain beyond how it's wired as it's normal homeostatic level of happiness. It makes it think, like I said before, that it's in a reward-like state and hence the dampening mechanisms kick in and try to push it back down to the set level, even though that level may be incorrect for some people. Does that make sense?
Posted by linkadge on December 21, 2004, at 9:37:00
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by JackD on December 21, 2004, at 9:18:32
To be honest I guess their working the way they were supposed to.
If they help your anxiety, and help your confidence enough to let you help yourself get back on track, then I guess that's normal.
When they were discovered they were not first named "happy pills" but rather anti-depressants.
The problem is that for the first few years I took them, it felt like I had an invisable shield around me, protecting me from anything life could hurdle my way. Now I feel so average that the future scares me much more.
Linkadge
Posted by JackD on December 21, 2004, at 9:41:49
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 21, 2004, at 9:37:00
Hey do use aol instant messenger? it'd be cool to chat about this kinda stuff, on a philosophical level moreso than on medication. I mean, don't feel obligated to contact me, but here's my screen name: or1g1n4LSIN.
Posted by linkadge on December 21, 2004, at 9:45:48
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 21, 2004, at 9:37:00
I guess what I want is not eternal reward, but rather more reward for doing things that naturally bring reward. Ie I get no reward from pretty much anything.
Ie, on cocaine, many people learn to make use of its stimulant qualities to get things done. On cocaine people are generally happier, and more productive. So why can't that last ??
Linkadge
Posted by JackD on December 21, 2004, at 9:53:53
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 21, 2004, at 9:45:48
Well capacity for reward, meaning how much reward your brain is capable of receiving in return for doing certain things, is dictated by norepinephrine and dopamine i believe. It's much more complex than just the levels of those too neurotransmitters, but the inability to experience pleasure, i think it's called anhedonia, look it up, is resolved by using certain antidepressants and other drugs in particular. Hope this helps, and hope you feel better, you sound like you're real down on your luck dude.
Posted by tensor on December 22, 2004, at 5:36:23
In reply to Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 15:29:03
>It is almost as if my brain says to the drug, "I see what you're trying to do, nice try, but no".
LOL, that's exactly how it feels. Maybe i should become a shaolin monk. Gain control of my own mind and tell it to stop 'bitching'. :)
/Mattias
Posted by Marley on December 22, 2004, at 22:34:33
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by banga on December 20, 2004, at 18:40:54
> I think that the age-old principle of homeostasis is in part responsible. Despite our brain not working ptimally, it resists attempts to alter its patterns. It's like the culprit imbalance is seen by the brain as the "normal" state of affairs, changes instigated via meds to it are "abnormal" and the body fights back.
>
> Obviously it is much more complex, but our minds and bodies and psychology and habits all seem to hate change and resist it.
Hi Linkadge. My experience has been similar to what banga described. I.e., I never felt like I could just "pop a pill" on a regular basis, and have it correct my depression in a consistent manner. Instead, it felt like there was some kind of dynamic equilibrium going on, and I'd constantly have to adjust my dosage to try to bring that into balance. But for me, I assumed that it was more a result of my body thinking that I had more neurotransmitters now than it thought was "normal", vs it responding to my emotional state (the product of the change in neurotransmitters).Good luck,
Marley
Posted by jerrympls on December 23, 2004, at 17:56:25
In reply to Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 15:29:03
> I know it kind of sounds crazy, but can your brain learn its way around the effects on an antidepressant. It is almost as if my brain says to the drug, "I see what you're trying to do, nice try, but no". THe drugs promote neurogenesis, but I think the new brain cells could be ones that just reinfoce the fact that your life sucks.
>
>
> LinkadgeWOW - I thought I was the only one who hypothesized about this! Perhaps a bit of the "self-centeredness" of depression?
interesting....
Jerry
Posted by banga on December 25, 2004, at 2:14:58
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by Marley on December 22, 2004, at 22:34:33
> But for me, I assumed that it was more a result of my body thinking that I had more neurotransmitters now than it thought was "normal", vs it responding to my emotional state (the product of the change in neurotransmitters).
>
> Good luck,
> MarleyHI Marley,
Actually that is what I meant--that is, that "normal" is defined on the level of neurotransmitter action. It is like the little workpeople in our brain that regulate the brain say "hey, that's what my instructions (from the DNA) said--this IS how the brain should be--I'm only following instructions." And when you alter the balance of neurotransmitters, the little workmen work to readjust the system to again correclty meet the requirements as stated in the DNA--this to them then is the "normal" state.
>
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 10:10:17
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by banga on December 25, 2004, at 2:14:58
Posted by Marley on December 25, 2004, at 11:07:22
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by banga on December 25, 2004, at 2:14:58
> HI Marley,
> Actually that is what I meant--that is, that "normal" is defined on the level of neurotransmitter action. It is like the little workpeople in our brain that regulate the brain say "hey, that's what my instructions (from the DNA) said--this IS how the brain should be--I'm only following instructions." And when you alter the balance of neurotransmitters, the little workmen work to readjust the system to again correclty meet the requirements as stated in the DNA--this to them then is the "normal" state.
> >
>
>I'm with you. I had found it really interesting when you made that observation in your first post, too, because I'd noticed the same thing but had never read about anyone else experiencing it before. That's why I think that doctors who make it sounds like taking an antidepressant is a straightforward solution to the neurotransmitter-deficit problem and depression don't have a true appreciation of the nature of the problem they're dealing with; that the medication is affecting a dynamic equilibrium.
Best,
Marley
Posted by banga on December 25, 2004, at 15:51:51
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by Marley on December 25, 2004, at 11:07:22
That's why I think that doctors who make it sounds like taking an antidepressant is a straightforward solution to the neurotransmitter-deficit problem and depression don't have a true appreciation of the nature of the problem they're dealing with; that the medication is affecting a dynamic equilibrium.
> Best,
> MarleyDuring a medical physical, a med student did the basic interview; and when he found out I was on psychotropics, he got all excited and said he hopes to study psychiatry. He said "it's neat, all you have to know are the three neurotransmitters and what they do, it's a simple deal."
I simply could not respond. There was no point. He was ......I'm at a loss for a word..pathetic? I don't know.
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 19:00:30
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by banga on December 25, 2004, at 15:51:51
I understand what you are talking about.
When I tell people I have a psychiatric illness, they respond with something dumb like.
"when I'm down I find going for a walk in the fresh air always boosts my spirits"
If only it was about "three neurotransmitters" we would have no problem.
Linkadge
Posted by jujube on December 26, 2004, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 19:00:30
I don't tell people what I am going through. I even have a hard time talking about it with my family. My mom has pretty much been despressed since I was a kid, but she has always refused to go on any medication, except for the tranquilizers she took when we were kids and she was struggling to cope with my dad's violent outbursts. When I have tried recently to talk to her about what I am going through, she turns the conversation around to how much she has been through, and how she just keeps going. But, I don't want half a life. I want to wake up and feel there is something to look forward to. I want to wake up and not be afraid of people, places and things. When I tell my parents that I am on an antidepressant, they both say I don't need it and I should just stop taking it because it is going to make me sick. For two people who can't stand each other and have been separated for almost 20 years, it's surprising they seem to agree on something. They don't get it. They don't get that being depressed and severely anxious is making me sicker than any AD ever could. They see what I want them to see, just like everybody else. But they are not inside my head listening to my, at times, dark thoughts. Even my friends don't get it. They don't understand my need to isolate at times, and my sometimes irrational fears. So, I just don't bother trying to share my feelings with people anymore. What they don't know can't hurt me. It's easier that way.
I'll shut up now.
Tamara
> I understand what you are talking about.
>
> When I tell people I have a psychiatric illness, they respond with something dumb like.
>
> "when I'm down I find going for a walk in the fresh air always boosts my spirits"
>
> If only it was about "three neurotransmitters" we would have no problem.
>
> Linkadge
>
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 12:18:26
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by jujube on December 26, 2004, at 10:22:51
Hi :-)
I think p-babble is a good place to find people who understand, or at least try to understand.
Best Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Marley on December 26, 2004, at 13:28:51
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by banga on December 25, 2004, at 15:51:51
> During a medical physical, a med student did the basic interview; and when he found out I was on psychotropics, he got all excited and said he hopes to study psychiatry. He said "it's neat, all you have to know are the three neurotransmitters and what they do, it's a simple deal."
> I simply could not respond. There was no point. He was ......I'm at a loss for a word..pathetic? I don't know.
>
>banga, I think you hit the nail on the head; "pathetic" captures his lack of understanding and empathy pretty well!
Tamara, hang in there. I think people who haven't experienced the thoughts and feelings you're talking about just don't get it. But a lot of people here do! That's what makes this message board such a good support system for so many of us.
You deserve a lot of credit for knowing you want better for yourself than what your parents had and say, and for taking steps to make it happen. That takes a lot of strength. Good luck to you!
Posted by jujube on December 26, 2004, at 14:32:10
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress, posted by Marley on December 26, 2004, at 13:28:51
Thanks for your kind words. I don't want to give the impression that I am not hanging in there. I am. I have to. I am the one that family and friends come to when THEY need to vent or talk about their problems or need help. It just would not be koshar if I was not available. So, it is easier to not divulge my own state of mind to them, and to just deal with it on my own. I have been an independent thinker and doer since early in life, so I have learned to take care of myself and to deal with my problems. It's unfortunate, but not even the pdoc I see is completely aware of what goes on in my head and how bad I feel sometimes. I know I need to learn to be more open with him because it affects the medication decisions he makes or won't make. Perhaps I can make that one of my new year's resolutions. I really can't complain about anything. I have a pretty good life. I just don't want to feel like I do for the rest of it.
Tamara
> Tamara, hang in there. I think people who haven't experienced the thoughts and feelings you're talking about just don't get it. But a lot of people here do! That's what makes this message board such a good support system for so many of us.
> You deserve a lot of credit for knowing you want better for yourself than what your parents had and say, and for taking steps to make it happen. That takes a lot of strength. Good luck to you!
>
Posted by jujube on December 28, 2004, at 12:52:51
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress » jujube, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 12:18:26
Thanks Ed :-). You are right! There are some really kind, compassionate and understanding people here (not to mention smart). It's been a good experience for me. I've even found myself being less shy and introverted and a bit more open than I usually am with new people in this forum (I guess the anonomity helps).
You take good care of yourself Ed.
Tamara
> Hi :-)
>
> I think p-babble is a good place to find people who understand, or at least try to understand.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ed.
Posted by Broken on December 28, 2004, at 16:34:41
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress » ed_uk, posted by jujube on December 28, 2004, at 12:52:51
Tamara,
Your original post was finally enough to convince me to register here. Thanks so much for at least showing me that I am not the only one that has to keep some things from everyone else. I wonder a bit about this, if it's another way I use to punish me. Sometimes it's a hell of a burden, and when you finally slip a little and someone sees how you really feel, they think you're yelling for attention, because you have "always been perfectly fine". Sorry to go off like that. In any event, thanks, just knowing other people are similar to me makes things better.
Posted by jujube on December 28, 2004, at 16:46:31
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress » jujube, posted by Broken on December 28, 2004, at 16:34:41
Hi! Your posting name describes how I have been feeling for the past number of months. I can't wait to be fixed again.
Don't be sorry for going off. It helps to vent sometimes, even if it is to an anonymous person. I don't know if I use keeping things from everyone as a way to punish myself. I think I use it more to prove to myself that I am strong, independent and capable, which isn't always the case. I sometimes envy people who can be so open about their emotions, etc. It takes a lot of practice, and, probably a lot more strength to reveal onesself, warts and all, to others. Perhaps with time and practice, we will both learn to "share" more.
Coming this board has also helped me to understand that I am not alone in what I am going through. That, in itself, is a comfort at times.
Take care of yourself.
> Tamara,
> Your original post was finally enough to convince me to register here. Thanks so much for at least showing me that I am not the only one that has to keep some things from everyone else. I wonder a bit about this, if it's another way I use to punish me. Sometimes it's a hell of a burden, and when you finally slip a little and someone sees how you really feel, they think you're yelling for attention, because you have "always been perfectly fine". Sorry to go off like that. In any event, thanks, just knowing other people are similar to me makes things better.
Posted by Simcha on December 30, 2004, at 23:39:28
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress » Marley, posted by jujube on December 26, 2004, at 14:32:10
Tamara,
I can understand you.
I have been that person to whom everyone comes to unload their problems. My Mother does not completely understand why I'm on anti-depressants even though she goes undiagnosed.
I decided to get an MA in Counseling Psychology to become a therapist. At least that way, people will pay me between $100-$150 to unload and I'll know what to do with it.
I'm in my last year. I'm also on a nice cocktail of meds. My psychiatrist, of course, thinks I'm pushing myself too far dangerously. Well, you know, someone has to be the wounded healer. I'm making it and for the most part I'm happy.
I have my sadness. This is much different from the old crippling depression. It's taken me some time to isolate the difference.
My cocktail?
Celexa (now generic Citalopram - YAY!) 40mg in am
Wellbutrin XL 300mg in pm
Neurontin (now generic Gabapentin (300mg x 2) - YAY!) 600mg in pmSo, I'm in remission. I don't talk to my parents about it much at all. My brother's on meds too. Yet he was much lower functioning. Since I was higher functioning, not less in pain, my Mother reasons that I really don't need the meds. Fortunately, she's not my psychiatrist.
Simcha
> Thanks for your kind words. I don't want to give the impression that I am not hanging in there. I am. I have to. I am the one that family and friends come to when THEY need to vent or talk about their problems or need help. It just would not be koshar if I was not available. So, it is easier to not divulge my own state of mind to them, and to just deal with it on my own. I have been an independent thinker and doer since early in life, so I have learned to take care of myself and to deal with my problems. It's unfortunate, but not even the pdoc I see is completely aware of what goes on in my head and how bad I feel sometimes. I know I need to learn to be more open with him because it affects the medication decisions he makes or won't make. Perhaps I can make that one of my new year's resolutions. I really can't complain about anything. I have a pretty good life. I just don't want to feel like I do for the rest of it.
>
> Tamara
>
>
> > Tamara, hang in there. I think people who haven't experienced the thoughts and feelings you're talking about just don't get it. But a lot of people here do! That's what makes this message board such a good support system for so many of us.
> > You deserve a lot of credit for knowing you want better for yourself than what your parents had and say, and for taking steps to make it happen. That takes a lot of strength. Good luck to you!
> >
>
>
Posted by jujube on January 3, 2005, at 22:56:19
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress » jujube, posted by Simcha on December 30, 2004, at 23:39:28
Simcha,
You should be very proud of your accomplishments, both academic and personal.
Sometimes I think our parents have a hard time accepting and acknowledging our depressions because they think somehow they have failed us or that our mental illness is a reflection of their parenting skills. Perhaps the head in the sand behaviour is about pride (which is unfortunate not to mention frustrating and narrow minded).
Anyways, it's nice to know there are people out there who understand and who have been there.
Take care, good luck in school, and, I agree with your pdoc, don't push youself too hard. You want to have something left over to give to the patients who will be lucky to have you as a therapist. Be good to you!
Tamara
> Tamara,
>
> I can understand you.
>
> I have been that person to whom everyone comes to unload their problems. My Mother does not completely understand why I'm on anti-depressants even though she goes undiagnosed.
>
> I decided to get an MA in Counseling Psychology to become a therapist. At least that way, people will pay me between $100-$150 to unload and I'll know what to do with it.
>
> I'm in my last year. I'm also on a nice cocktail of meds. My psychiatrist, of course, thinks I'm pushing myself too far dangerously. Well, you know, someone has to be the wounded healer. I'm making it and for the most part I'm happy.
>
> I have my sadness. This is much different from the old crippling depression. It's taken me some time to isolate the difference.
>
> My cocktail?
>
> Celexa (now generic Citalopram - YAY!) 40mg in am
> Wellbutrin XL 300mg in pm
> Neurontin (now generic Gabapentin (300mg x 2) - YAY!) 600mg in pm
>
> So, I'm in remission. I don't talk to my parents about it much at all. My brother's on meds too. Yet he was much lower functioning. Since I was higher functioning, not less in pain, my Mother reasons that I really don't need the meds. Fortunately, she's not my psychiatrist.
>
> Simcha
>
>
> > Thanks for your kind words. I don't want to give the impression that I am not hanging in there. I am. I have to. I am the one that family and friends come to when THEY need to vent or talk about their problems or need help. It just would not be koshar if I was not available. So, it is easier to not divulge my own state of mind to them, and to just deal with it on my own. I have been an independent thinker and doer since early in life, so I have learned to take care of myself and to deal with my problems. It's unfortunate, but not even the pdoc I see is completely aware of what goes on in my head and how bad I feel sometimes. I know I need to learn to be more open with him because it affects the medication decisions he makes or won't make. Perhaps I can make that one of my new year's resolutions. I really can't complain about anything. I have a pretty good life. I just don't want to feel like I do for the rest of it.
> >
> > Tamara
> >
> >
> > > Tamara, hang in there. I think people who haven't experienced the thoughts and feelings you're talking about just don't get it. But a lot of people here do! That's what makes this message board such a good support system for so many of us.
> > > You deserve a lot of credit for knowing you want better for yourself than what your parents had and say, and for taking steps to make it happen. That takes a lot of strength. Good luck to you!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by ckc on January 4, 2005, at 13:39:04
In reply to Re: Can your brain learn its way around an antidepress » Marley, posted by jujube on December 26, 2004, at 14:32:10
Oh Tamara, what can I say that will help you? Being everyone's caregiver can be devasting. Believe me, I have never been able to care for my needs above everyone else or to lower my expectations of myself. That makes me my own worst enemy. You would have thought that I would have changed after having a stroke 6 months ago at the age of 47, but no. I came back to work too soon, ramped up to full time too quickly and gradually since September have taken on more and more responsibilties. This in addition to tending to my anxiety prone husband, my wonderful son who has just been diagnosed with bipolar II and having family visiting for weeks. It all came crashing in last week. I had developed a distinct suicide plan and was ready to implement it. I have taken a week off of work and am trying desperately to tend only to myself, ignoring the housework, not running everyone's errands and trying to find and practice things that soothe me. My husband and health care providers have helped me through for now. I feel that if caregivers don't pull back and say "I can't meet that need for you right now" we ultimately become the greatest victims of all. Life should not be a race against time, ourselves or the needs of all those around us. Please set aside time for yourself and nurture your inner being. Best of luck, ckc
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.