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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 785 to 809 of 1838. Go back in thread:
Posted by headachequeen on October 14, 2004, at 15:38:52
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by Stressee on October 14, 2004, at 13:06:25
> I am going to take it slower with the increase. I don't feel right going so fast, even though she hasn't really had side effects. I told my husband our concerns and he said take it slower, there's no hurry. I may have done the wrong thing though, because I gave her 75mg in the am instead of pm today. You see, I was thinking they would give her a prescription for 100mg. and one for 50mg., but when I picked up the medication, it was 25mg. (It would be easier than three pills 2x per day) I guess I need to inform him what I want. I always assume the Dr. knows what he is doing, but people make errors and everyone is different. -L
No this is the great way to do it...
if there are problems, then you can cut back...
at this point you have the 25 mg to increase the dosage a little at a time and the 25 mg to use for the present dosage... the pharmacist is on the ball... clever pharmacist should get a cookie...or two maybe...
stick to the 25 as long as you can as this means you can go back if you need to...I asked mine if I could drop to 25 even fifty and she said that as the prescription was for 300 mg twice a day then it had to be in the 200 and 100 mg dosage and blah blah blah... I should ask my doctor for the smaller pills...
I see the man every three or four months and for three minutes a time if I am lucky....
this new man gave me a prescription to increase the dosage but in 25 mg pills...
and changed the old dosage to 25 mg....
I still take the same dosage but in 25 mg...
just in case...
he is in touch with reality....
kat
Posted by Stressee on October 14, 2004, at 16:09:22
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by bridgey1128 on October 14, 2004, at 15:34:05
I hope you all realize how much I do value your advice, and appreciate you. You're right again, 25mg is the best way to go, I wasn't thinking about those things both of you mentioned. So, I'll just wait and give her the extra 25mg tomorrow night? Whew! I wonder what it's like to be normal? Is there a normal? I wondering about a medication for people who are addicted to Dr. Bob's Babble? I have NEVER ever been much of a computer person, and I feel the pull to get on-line and check this site way too many times per day!!! I have told several of my friends about these boards, a few of them need to check it out. It's a great support system, and I really thank Dr. Bob. for bringing you to me!!! -L
Posted by headachequeen on October 14, 2004, at 16:12:03
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by Stressee on October 14, 2004, at 16:09:22
> I hope you all realize how much I do value your advice, and appreciate you. You're right again, 25mg is the best way to go, I wasn't thinking about those things both of you mentioned. So, I'll just wait and give her the extra 25mg tomorrow night? Whew! I wonder what it's like to be normal? Is there a normal? I wondering about a medication for people who are addicted to Dr. Bob's Babble? I have NEVER ever been much of a computer person, and I feel the pull to get on-line and check this site way too many times per day!!! I have told several of my friends about these boards, a few of them need to check it out. It's a great support system, and I really thank Dr. Bob. for bringing you to me!!! -L
According to my psychologist 'normal' is a meaningless word and means something different as applied to each individual... what is normal for me is abnormal for you and totally disfunctional for the next person...
so we do not try for normal we try for... dear heaven I forget what it is we try for...
a wasted session that was !!!a seizure day... sigh...
kat
Posted by bridgey1128 on October 14, 2004, at 16:20:44
In reply to Re: topomax » Stressee, posted by headachequeen on October 14, 2004, at 16:12:03
besides..normal is no fun anyway.. :)
Posted by Stressee on October 14, 2004, at 19:13:53
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by bridgey1128 on October 14, 2004, at 16:20:44
Continue to inform me of that over and over -L
Posted by headachequeen on October 14, 2004, at 19:22:01
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by Stressee on October 14, 2004, at 19:13:53
> Continue to inform me of that over and over -L
When I had sessions with the psychologist I would say that I wanted to be normal and he would ask what normal was or what it meant...
and I could never define it or explain it...
He would tell me that it was hardly worth trying to achieve something that could not be defined or explained...
Some days I would be so angry with him and ask him why I was there; one day he told me I was there to learn that normal was not a state of mind worth pursuing...
that is one thing I have not forgotten; may not remember the concept I am supposed to pursue, but I have remembered that <g>
kat
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 15, 2004, at 0:44:06
In reply to Re: topomax » Stressee, posted by headachequeen on October 14, 2004, at 19:22:01
do any of you take it for tremors? if so, how much do you take of it? I am on 30 mgs trying to go up to 50mgs. The med really effects my eyes. They hurt. I can't figure if it's a sensitivity to light, dryness or pressure. I am going really slow with the increase. This med also makes me feel really sick and more depressed in the beginning of increasing it. It's a tough drug.
Posted by Stressee on October 15, 2004, at 8:07:55
In reply to Re: topomax and tremor tx, posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 15, 2004, at 0:44:06
My daughter is taking topamax for binge eating disorder, and is on her 4th week (125mg). I can't answer many of your questions, because I am still asking the group myself. To my knowledge, she has not had any eye pain, but for the first week she said it made her feel like she had the flu. I asked her repeadedly about side-effects, and thank goodnes she hasn't had some of the more severe yet. As she goes up in dosage, there may be some, but she is going slowely.(Thanks to the advice of the group, once again!!!) I hope I helped you out? -L
Posted by bridgey1128 on October 15, 2004, at 8:41:03
In reply to Re: topomax and tremor tx, posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 15, 2004, at 0:44:06
If it affects your eyes I don't believe you should be taking it. It will probably do permanant damage to your eyes. If you are going up very very slowly and it STILL is making your eyes hurt, THAT, my friend is a VERY VERY big problem. Does your Dr know about this? How about your opthamologist? When I was going from the 25mg to the 50mg dosage, I went up too soon and it made me lose my eye sight. It made them ACHE. It actually elongated them. I could feel them in their socket poking outward. They were blood red and I couldn't open them because the light hurt so badly. When I backed down off the Topomax, this went away but that was only because I had gone up on the meds too soon. This went away, or started to, as soon as I backed down and I have not had this problem ever since. I have never heard of Topomax being prescribed for tremors but nothing would surprise me at this point. It's a fairly new drug as drugs go. If they are causing your eyes to hurt, I would IMMEDIATELY go to your Dr. If he won't help I would seek another opinion. I have also never heard of 30mg and I don't believe you can take 30mg. They only come in 25mg, 50mg and 100mg tablets. THey may come in higher. Are we talking about the same medication? If the 25mg(which I am assuming is what you are taking) is bothering you this much, this may not be the drug for you. THere is a whole host of other drugs available. I never had any side effects other than tingling ON a dose. Only going up too soon, or not going up soon enough.(hallucinations) IF you are having this many problems this early on, you may want to ask your Dr if this is really the right drug for you. And the eye thing really bothers me. Too long of that and it can permanantly damage your sight, from the research I have done on it. Hope this helps.
Posted by headachequeen on October 15, 2004, at 9:43:28
In reply to Re: topomax and tremor tx, posted by Stressee on October 15, 2004, at 8:07:55
> My daughter is taking topamax for binge eating disorder, and is on her 4th week (125mg). I can't answer many of your questions, because I am still asking the group myself. To my knowledge, she has not had any eye pain, but for the first week she said it made her feel like she had the flu. I asked her repeadedly about side-effects, and thank goodnes she hasn't had some of the more severe yet. As she goes up in dosage, there may be some, but she is going slowely.(Thanks to the advice of the group, once again!!!) I hope I helped you out? -L
The first week it made me feel like I had the flu but I was told to take it in the evening and somehow missed that destruction and started taking in the morning with other meds...
when I started it in the evening I was fine...
then when I started to take it in the morning having completed the evening build-up so to speak there were no flu-like problems...
and here I am always telling my students to follow directions....
kat
Posted by Stressee on October 16, 2004, at 21:03:00
In reply to Re:dogs and Clomipramine/Calmiclam » stressed, posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2004, at 13:25:14
Larry, I just ordered Prozac from the web site you gave me, and I am wondering if you know how much to give a 28 pound dog? I hope Prozac does it, because the spinning and slamming of his body against the door is driving ALL OF US crazy. Thanks. -L
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 17, 2004, at 9:56:43
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » Larry Hoover, posted by Stressee on October 16, 2004, at 21:03:00
> Larry, I just ordered Prozac from the web site you gave me, and I am wondering if you know how much to give a 28 pound dog? I hope Prozac does it, because the spinning and slamming of his body against the door is driving ALL OF US crazy. Thanks. -L
The standard canine dose is 1 mg/kg, once a day.
That's 12 or 13 mg/day, more or less. Frankly, I'd start at 5 mg, and only carefully and slowly increase it. Ten mg might be the perfect dose (and the easiest to manage). Embed the pill in an ample amount peanut butter, and it turns into a doggy treat.
Lar
Posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 12:32:56
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » Stressee, posted by Larry Hoover on October 17, 2004, at 9:56:43
I'm coming in here sort of against the flow of dogs and starting topamax--I'm wondering if the latter has turned me into part of the gruesomely active walking dead. I'm on 300 mg as part of a BP II cocktail, and my good judgement has gone way south--in talking social situations. Foot in mouth syndrome x 5. There are some other pesky side effects. I don't feel like me.
I've lost about 25 pounds on Topamax which is good and at 62, after 47 years, am no longer strangled by the urge to binge(didn't see the pun, sorry) so I don't want to quit. But I don't want to gain 30 pounds, either. Anybody with experience stopping? Do you really gain weight and do moods really unroll?
Thanks, Rainy.
Also, how do you make your posts longer than this? My computer is directing me to submit! Submit! I want to write! write!
Posted by headachequeen on October 17, 2004, at 13:55:22
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac, posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 12:32:56
> I'm coming in here sort of against the flow of dogs and starting topamax--I'm wondering if the latter has turned me into part of the gruesomely active walking dead. I'm on 300 mg as part of a BP II cocktail, and my good judgement has gone way south--in talking social situations. Foot in mouth syndrome x 5. There are some other pesky side effects. I don't feel like me.
> I've lost about 25 pounds on Topamax which is good and at 62, after 47 years, am no longer strangled by the urge to binge(didn't see the pun, sorry) so I don't want to quit. But I don't want to gain 30 pounds, either. Anybody with experience stopping? Do you really gain weight and do moods really unroll?
> Thanks, Rainy.
> Also, how do you make your posts longer than this? My computer is directing me to submit! Submit! I want to write! write!
>
>Rainy, dogs don't really belong here so don't worry about that...
as for 300 mg that is a low dose really...
is your dose going up slowly???
I keep reminding people not to increase too quickly so that I sound like an old 8-track on continuous loop rewind but it is important...
and I don't think that it is a problem with foot-in-mouth causer...
at least so far it is not a problem I have found...and I have been on 300 twice a day for quite some time and going up to at least 800 so I hope the world is ready for me if it is a problem LOL
and when you quit the weight gain is reality...
and fast I am told by those who know, the people who ran the tests...so it is a catch-22
kat
oh and submit... ignore it...
just write and say to us what you want to say... we want to hear from you... it could be vital... then hit the submit thing when YOU want to...
kat
Posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 14:33:29
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » rainy, posted by headachequeen on October 17, 2004, at 13:55:22
Thanks, Kat. (I hope it's you who responded--I csan't remembere for sure.) I've been on Topamax for about three years. At 400mgs the Stupids were terrible. I'm also taking 200 mgs of trazodone--since September--and.5 mg clonazapam (Klonopin)if I need it. I'd been on 300 mgs of wellbutrin but my pdoc said stop because she's going to try provigil to counteract the almost overwhleming lethrargy that hits every now and then. This is a problem especially on laundry days--those basement stairs, you know. This is when I start to question the whole diagnosis. Am I walking with weights on every extremity because I don't want to do the laundry, or because I'm depressed and the generic desreyl has it masked so I can't feel it?
When I went off serzone, she said cold turkey. I tapered. Same with wellbutrin. Same with Klonopin when I was taking 4 mgs a day--whooeee, try that one cold turkey!
Anybody got suggestions about going off Topamax? Experience with provigil?
There is no question that foot in mouth has been a life long affliction--I think it's my good judgement that's squiggled loose. I often say things I later regret. And I feel sort of cottony inside, if that makes any sense.
I stopped drinking vodka in 2001. I began drinking in 1995. Prior to that hardly any ETOH, now an occasional glass of wine with a meal. I combined it with SSRIs and wellbutrin. How lethal was that? To brain cells, I mean.
bleaagghh.
linda
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 17, 2004, at 18:15:09
In reply to Re: topomax and tremor tx » Stressee, posted by headachequeen on October 15, 2004, at 9:43:28
I have 15 mg capsules of topamax. Many docs are not familiar with this dosage being available. When I back down, the pain goes away. Going very slow with increases is the key. Now, my eyes feel more dry like. I get tired with even this low dose. I am very sensitive to meds.
Yes, I know about that flu like feeling. I felt more like I had been poison like sickness even with just 15 mg.
Posted by iris2 on October 17, 2004, at 18:46:58
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac, posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 12:32:56
Are you going off of Topamax because it is not helping your mood?
I cannot remember how much I was on when I first took it. I took it for several months and it did not help me. In fact I thought I felt more depressed. I am bulimic and with that many times binge eat. I took it for a mood stabilizer. I am, after 30 years of being bulimic, not symptomatic with it much of the time anymore. Baring that in mind I am saying that I do not think it had any effect on my eating disorder good or bad. I also did not loose any weight on it, in fact I believe I might have gained a little.HOWEVER when I went off of it, which I tapered slowly, I gained about 30 pounds. I do not remember how much exactly I was on but I do recall knowing that I had to taper off of it slowly so I most likely adjusted the dose every few days. That would have been what I would have done, I do not need to remember that specifically. I went off of it without my doctor’s knowledge. When I told him of my weight gain he asked if I was still taking it and I told him no. He told me then that it has or could have an effect on weight and no doubt that is why I gained so much weight so quickly. I generally do not gain or loose more than 10 pounds ever because of my intense problem with too much thought about weight and body image. I was hysterical. He told me to go back on the Topamax. I went back on a small amount. Please forgive me for not remembering (I keep telling myself to keep a journal of this stuff). It was probably 50 to 100mg a day. I lost the 30 pounds immediately but not more. Once on it for a couple of months I then tapered off of it again. I probably took at least two months or longer to go off of it this time. I recall in the end after getting to the lowest dose of 25mg or perhaps I even cut it in half I started taking it every other day, then every two day then three. I took each successive dose for about two weeks. I was very worried about gaining all that weight again.
I did not gain any weight this time. From my experience I would say unless you are having a very bad time with taking it to taper off of it very very slowly. If you are going too fast you will most likely start to see a gain in weight so I would keep track of my weight over every few days. As long as you are not gaining weight then I would continue to slowly taper off of it. Thing is I gained probably most of it after I was off of it. So if you taper very gradually then you might not have the same problem as me.
Of course everyone is different, but given that you lost weight on it I would think it even more likely than I was that you might at the very least gain what you had lost. According to my pdoc it is common to gain weight when going off of it.That is my story at least what I remember of it. I hope it helps. I would not want you to go through what I did.
Irene
Posted by iris2 on October 17, 2004, at 18:52:35
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac, posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 12:32:56
I am writing again only because after reading the next post I thought perhaps I misunderstood you. I understood you to be inquiring as to going off of the Topamax and that it is what you wanted to do. I hope I grasped what you were saying correctly. If not please forgive me.
irene
Posted by headachequeen on October 17, 2004, at 19:28:06
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac, posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 14:33:29
> Thanks, Kat. (I hope it's you who responded--I csan't remembere for sure.) I've been on Topamax for about three years. At 400mgs the Stupids were terrible.
Oh, dear, I have days when I have no wish to do things, and it is always things I hate doing...
laundry is easy... I like throwing things into the washer and I like hanging it out on the line...
now, bringing it inside, even taking it out of the dryer and folding it and putting it away....
now that is another thing entirely and there is no drug on which I can blame it...
it is something I do not like to do...
I do not like to vacuum... I loather shampooing the rugs and cleaning bathrooms...
that is why they have people who are paid to do these things, is it not?
I even hate to load and unload the dishwasher...
until the situation is desperate I do not bother with these things...
and again it is not something I can blame on any drug...
it is simply something beneath my notice or will to do...as for Topomax...
the loss of cognitive skills comes in the early stages of larger doses, often because the climb was too fast... and often because one needs to adjust...
once the adjustment is made it goes away...
I wish I could blame it on Topomax...
at the moment I am having problems with vocabulary; once I remember a word or a name it is locked in, but right now I am recovering after the sudden spate of seizures that followed that wretched telemetry test...
and the spate of seizures that followed my gp's decision that my meds were much too high... hey, as the new neurologist said the other day, he is not a neurologist and the neurologist as emerg is not a gp... as long as the neuro at emerg does not try to set my broken arm the gp should not try to fix my epilepsy...
I think that is a good arrangement... and now I am waiting for the new arrangement of meds to kick in... have had seizures for the past three or four DAYS and I am not happy...
as for going off Topomax, the tech who did the test that set me into daytime seizures that have been absolute Hades was involved in the tests that outlined the protocol for weight loss...
she works with this new neuro by the way and he is the guy who discovered the weight loss stuff...
at any rate, going off the stuff at any rate of speed means the weight is going to come back on and stay on, so there is no way around it...
she told me that during my awake part of that test ordeal...
believe me, I am staying on it forever....now if someone could point me to a board like this for tegretol as I am apparently going to be on it for life too...
have been doing more research and have found no place like this for Tegretol...
Hey, Dr. Bob, there is an idea for you <g>
...
but I have learned a lot about the alternatives that scare the daylights out of me...
doesn't seem to scare the daylight seizures out of me though...
decided to pop downtown this afternoon on my own... my first mistake... as my husband was watching football and I felt really well... and pick up a couple of new fish for my main display tank.
I want to try a couple of cichlids I can't pronounce let alone spell and I wanted some crushed coral and some other stuff. It is only three blocks from our house... has to be safe right?
I made it to the shop, talked to the owner and got the advice I needed, chose the two fish I wanted and thought about some fish for the community tank in the dining room, but decided to go back for them tomorrow... and maybe a couple of baby clown loaches...
for once I was thinking straight <s>
made to withing ten feet of the porch and went into seizure...
walked the last few feet sort of on auto-pilot... in the front door and put the packages down on the floor and went into the living room and sat on the floor and did not have a clue...
dead stare and coma-like according to my husband who wisely settled the two fish into the right tank (he can be so clever at times) and then took me to emerg.... again....
by now they know me on sight over there...
it is getting to be a habit...
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and today....
not to mention last week's episodes and Monday...
they dealt with it and were going to keep me this time.. not a chance of it... I am so afraid of more tests and more negative results of the tests...
Instead they called the new neurologist who upped the tegretol -- it was to increase on Tuesday -- and told them to give me a shot of something...
I am so tired of this...
I used to wonder how the people with tonic clonic epilepsy managed to cope; I still wonder how they cope. But this is getting to be really annoying to put it mildly. For days afterward there is this semblance of not being here, as if I am on another planet. I don't have a chance to return to earth so to speak and it happens again...
my head feels as if it were stuffed with cotton wool and I have to fight through it all the time...
Make it go away, someone...
kat
Posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 19:37:26
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » rainy, posted by iris2 on October 17, 2004, at 18:52:35
I'm thinking about going off topamax because I'm wondering if it's behind the apparent increase in number and significance of foot in mouth incidents I'm experiencing. I was started on it three years ago as a mood stabilizer and at 250 mgs began to lose weight. Of course I also broke my rib and it was beastly hot so I was eating very little at that time anyway, and then we moved and I was diagnosed with BP II and moved up to 350 and then 400 and then couldn't remember my own name. I lost about 20 pounds.
The pdoc suggested that I stop topamax cold turkey because of the cognitive problems, which I didn't do--I tapered. I gained a little weight and had severe mood swings; it was not a good time. Lamictal increased my appitite.
This isn't answering your question. You've helped me with mine, which is to do things slowly, slowly. Has the Topamax messed with your mind, Iris?
Rainy
Posted by Stressee on October 17, 2004, at 20:06:12
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » Stressee, posted by Larry Hoover on October 17, 2004, at 9:56:43
Larry, thanks so much for the dosage. I will start with 1/2 of the 10mg. pill, and gradually go up the next week. If that isn't a good idea, please let me know. Thank heavens for you. -L
Posted by Stressee on October 17, 2004, at 20:11:38
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » rainy, posted by headachequeen on October 17, 2004, at 19:28:06
I also have the same dreadful disease of not wanting to do housework. I'm still waiting for my laundry to fold itself, my dishwasher to unload and my vaccum to sweep the house!!! A glass of wine may make it seem like it's not as boring as it really is?...Anyway, I am so sorry to hear about your seizures the past four days. I really cannot emagine how it must be for you, but I know others can. You must be a very strong person. Will you be going up on your Topamax? I'll be thinking about you until I read a posting from you agian. -L
Posted by iris2 on October 17, 2004, at 21:52:38
In reply to Re:going off topamax » iris2, posted by rainy on October 17, 2004, at 19:37:26
The only thing I noticed is that I felt sluggish and foggy and more depressed. It would be hard for my mind to feel more messed than it already is. I forget words, I cannot read a book very well if at all. I block memory sometimes a particular incident or person other times I cannot remember an entire year or so. In other words if the Topamax messed with my head I probably would not have realised it was anything different than my normal on again off again problems.
irene
Posted by rainy on October 18, 2004, at 8:58:55
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » rainy, posted by headachequeen on October 17, 2004, at 19:28:06
Kat, it sounds like you're going through hell. I'm sorry. I surely do hope that somebody, somehow, can make it stop or at least tone it down to a richly livable level without tegretol.
The lethargy that I'm talking about isn't so much about housework as it is about zombieism--I can't make myself move. It's an enormous act of will to do anything that requires physical effort. That's why the pdoc wants to try provigil, which is used in treating narcolepsy.
So I'll be taking meds to calm me down and perk me up, to keep my moods stable (topamax) and to keep me from getting more depressed (desreyl). Pill-woman. Real-woman?
Iris, I can read, although I know a lot of adult women who can't anymore. I sometimes wonder if the decades of anorexia and bulemia has had an effect on my brain. Hello? I'm having trouble with Spanish, which I'm learning. It's much more difficult than Russian was 12 years ago, which is now very passive.
Your messages, all of you, make me think it's more me than the meds. Life is just one long learning experience, isn't it? I'm tired of learning. I just wanna have fun.
Stressee, I also wonder how we women, at all ages, have gotten trapped into the weight thing. I know 80 year olds who refuse to eat a half bagel because they might gain weight. And I'll probably stay on Topamax, even if it means lying to my doctor, because I don't, at 5'5", want to weigh 135. I might not look as old, though. Hmmmm.
linda
Posted by headachequeen on October 18, 2004, at 13:59:15
In reply to Re:dogs and Prozac » headachequeen, posted by Stressee on October 17, 2004, at 20:11:38
> I also have the same dreadful disease of not wanting to do housework. I'm still waiting for my laundry to fold itself, my dishwasher to unload and my vaccum to sweep the house!!! A glass of wine may make it seem like it's not as boring as it really is?...Anyway, I am so sorry to hear about your seizures the past four days. I really cannot emagine how it must be for you, but I know others can. You must be a very strong person. Will you be going up on your Topamax? I'll be thinking about you until I read a posting from you agian. -L
L, I thank you for your thoughts... and I appreciate them immensely... support is something I value greatly right now... and always for that matter...as for the housework thing, I think a whole bottle of wine would be needed, except that alcohol and topomax and tegretol are not a good mixture ...
there is just something about unpleasant tasks that do not appeal to me...
then some days I have these sudden flare-ups of thinking that putting away laundry and tidying dresser drawers and linen closets and clothes closets is something I desperately want to do... those are the days when I think I am desperately in need of a psychiatrist LOLas for the seizures, the new neurologist is increasing both the tegretol and the topomax to control the seizures, he is also trying to learn the cause of the seizures...
so perhaps we can get to the cause and stop it entirely????
what a concept
kat
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